royaloak Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Re. Peter220950s post You could get a sump plug in some ! hat, coat, leaving. Very good!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 to be and to me the most pertinent post was:- "Let me get this straight, we have one side saying that there has been no recorded incidents of a child receiving injuries using BS standard shuttered sockets, and the other saying that we have no recorded instances of the same with socket covers!! So what's the issue?" Peter Yes, I did wonder myself whether there was any firm evidence of injuries with or without. Part of the concern seems to be that kids can fiddle about with them, remove them, turn them upside down putting just the earth plug in and then stick a paper clip in the live socket. Yes, they could. Equally, they could stick something into the earth port on a standard socket so depressing the shutters and stick a paper clip in.... Not convinced they are necessary in the first place but equally not convinced that they are such major safety issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashcombe Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Pedant mode on. Why do people call them plug sockets? They are sockets - a female connector. You insert the male connector, a plug. Pedant mode off, sorry. Stewart Although plug socket does clarify what type of socket you are talking about, train station is just wrong! Why am I thinking about the 2 Ronnies and the hardware store? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz2-ukrd2VQ Me too! No it doesn't. It's about as unclear as it can get. All sockets are receptacles for a plug. So what about socket sets then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Me too! So what about socket sets then? Have you tried using one without plugging it into a T-bar or ratchet handle? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 47137 Posted July 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 20, 2016 When I was little I used to play with the electric plugs and sockets around the house. From what I've been told, I would not leave them alone. In desperation, my Father got hold of an old 13A socket and screwed it onto a length of board, and gave me my own plug, with the live pin removed. So I had a plug and a socket of my own. This was given as a present, with a sort of stereo explanation from both parents that these were mine, and the house ones were for Mum and Dad. I can remember opening the plug top, tying on a length of string to make a flex, and putting it back together. Mum nearly had kittens. Not surprisingly, I went on to follow a career in engineering :-) - Richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 Given that my 2 year old regularly copys daddy by carrying screwdrivers and various tools around the house, do I particularly want to run the risk of him inserting something, be it a tool or toy, into a plug socket? No thanks. I'll put a cover in them (which are also nigh on wife proof incidentally). You did not read this did you? http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/ It explains why kids playing around with tool or toy etc is less dangerous than putting covers on. Without the socket covers it is impossible for any child to get any tool in to the live parts of the socket. However fit one of these covers, and the cover itself can be used to defeat the safety systems and allow the child to insert something in. No cover means no risk. Fit one of these covers and your child may die. Still think 'No thanks' ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 We always have to be scared of something, don't we? Wonder what it will be tomorrow? Me, I'm terrified of those low-flying zigzags. Seriously, wrapping kids up in cotton wool and making them live in a bubble? For God's sake, don't ever let them use cutlery, they'll have an eye out... Sorry, but I refuse to be terrified of "whatifs", and yes, I'm a parent. Probably not a good one in the eyes of the more "h&s aware" of you, but whatever... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewartingram Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Me too! So what about socket sets then? Just to conclude this, do we have our plug sockets on the wall, and plug in our socket plugs ? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter220950 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 You did not read this did you? http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/ It explains why kids playing around with tool or toy etc is less (True) dangerous than putting covers on. Without the socket covers it is impossible (Untrue, it's possible if they stick something in the earth slot first- but probably less likely) for any child to get any tool in to the live parts of the socket. However fit one of these covers, and the cover itself can be used to defeat the safety systems and allow the child to insert something in. No cover means no risk. Fit one of these covers and your child may die (No such thing as no risk, possibly less risk, though according to the IOSH site there's also an example of a risk where a child might have been saved by their use, though again the example is one of those 1 in several million chances). Still think 'No thanks' ? - Probably on balance no, but considering the actual proven risk it's not unreasonable to take either view. Edited for balance, When I first saw the thread, having just returned from a fortnight's holiday with a 17 month old I was concerned, particularly as my daughter has some fitted, but amongst all the," could, might, may," I struggled to find any hard evidence of actual harm in the last 15 years or so. I shall make her aware of the advice and let her take her own view, but given the lack of any substantiation of the actual risk in the real world she might choose to think there's just as much risk in not using them. I still think there are far more dangerous things to worry about, like drowning, railways, dangerous dogs, cars, terrorists, cyber-bullying, and dodgy electrics. I haven't noticed the NHS banning water features from their Estates yet, and their traffic management leaves a lot to be desired. The cynic in me decided that in the case of the NHS guidelines it's as much about preventing spurious claims. - I note that even the IET concede "However, in some instances they may stop young children plugging in heaters or other appliances that could cause burns or start a fire",. As far as I know the biggest threat to children is drowning, with about 15 deaths a year, the risk of encouraging parents to think they have made their houses safe is complacency. Now if you really want something to put into the sockets for the children to play with this one's a corker......... Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Without the socket covers it is impossible for any child to get any tool in to the live parts of the socket. However fit one of these covers, and the cover itself can be used to defeat the safety systems and allow the child to insert something in. No cover means no risk. Fit one of these covers and your child may die. Perhaps you could comment on my earlier post then Part of the concern seems to be that kids can fiddle about with them, remove them, turn them upside down putting just the earth plug in and then stick a paper clip in the live socket. Yes, they could. Equally, they could stick something into the earth port on a standard socket so depressing the shutters and stick a paper clip in.... I've just checked three shuttered sockets lying in my workshop. With two it was very easy, no pressure required at all, to inset a small screwdriver into the earth socket and the shutters just slid down. With an MK design, to be fair, it was very difficult. The shutters being operated by the live and negative pins themselves and really needing both inserting together and a twist applied across the pair. So not all shuttered sockets are equal and on the earth pin design an inquisitive child could easily drop the shutters. (Yeah, I know, what's' more important, a child's life or new sockets all round) And just to clarify, Not convinced they are necessary in the first place but equally not convinced that they are such major safety issue. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted July 21, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2016 You did not read this did you? http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/ It explains why kids playing around with tool or toy etc is less dangerous than putting covers on. Without the socket covers it is impossible for any child to get any tool in to the live parts of the socket. However fit one of these covers, and the cover itself can be used to defeat the safety systems and allow the child to insert something in. No cover means no risk. Fit one of these covers and your child may die. Still think 'No thanks' ? If you push a screwdriver into the earth pin inlet on a socket, it lifts the protective gate. You can then push some Yale type house key into the live and neutral inlets Nice sparks? I certainly learned how to fly from one side of the room to the other at an early age. Nearly all safety devices are fallible if you have a curious and inventive mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 21, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2016 When I was little I used to play with the electric plugs and sockets around the house. From what I've been told, I would not leave them alone. In desperation, my Father got hold of an old 13A socket and screwed it onto a length of board, and gave me my own plug, with the live pin removed. So I had a plug and a socket of my own. This was given as a present, with a sort of stereo explanation from both parents that these were mine, and the house ones were for Mum and Dad. I can remember opening the plug top, tying on a length of string to make a flex, and putting it back together. Mum nearly had kittens. Not surprisingly, I went on to follow a career in engineering :-) - Richard. When I was a young child such things as 13Amp square pin sockets didn't exist. I was told not to touch the electric sockets (all round pin, two different sizes) so I didn't touch them. I accept that not all children are sensible when it comes to doing what they are told or touching things they have been told not to touch and that safety precautions in the design of sockets are a good idea but it also helps to tell children what they are or are not allowed to do, especially when nowadays wall mounted sockets are placed at a more accessible height above the floor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Jonny777 Exactly. Those are the worse than useless ones. Childminding inspections (Ofstead) here requested them, we complied but removed them after inspection. We allowed our accreditation to lapse in 2012. All accessible sockets at least are UK made and have all the defence mechanisms described by MK Fostering inspections (social services) do not stipulate covers. Good heavens. That means my three children (all in their 30s now) grew up in a home environment which was so potentially lethal that I ought to be locked up. Strangely, though, I don't ever remember them straying anywhere near sockets (covered or not) until they were old enough to have their own electrical items in their rooms. Maybe it was just coincidence, but as Daddy never went near most sockets (as most electrical items were left plugged-in except during thunderstorms) the children were not going to copy me. I found that after about 18 months, a sharp "NO" was enough for them to realise that what they might be about to do was not approved of. I also found that the children who considered it was 'fun' to do the opposite of what they were told, generally had parents who stuck their kids in front of the tv or showered them with the latest 'cool' toys rather than bother to spend many hours involving their children in everything they did at home, and talking to them the whole time. My granddaughter is 2 now, and she understands what NO means. She is so keen to watch me cooking or gardening, or helping me build a Duplo house for Peppa Pig, that she has little time for investigating things that she is not meant to. I have no covers on my sockets but most are hidden at the back of chairs or other items of furniture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I remember my little sister (she would have been perhaps five at the time) deciding that the electric fire in the living room was a bit dull, and needed 'livening up'. Apparently, the poker from the 'companion set' on the hearth was just the job. Mum and I were getting tea ready in the kitchen, when there was a loud bang, and the lights went out. Remarkably, sister was unscathed, but sitting against the wall on the other side of the room. It was a good job I hadn't been in the room, as I'd have got the blame as usual. More alarming, in many ways, was the incident involving the six year old son of a friend. The father had borrowed an extension lead; when I got it back, it was shorter, and the plug had been changed. Said (very precocious, and possibly psychopathic) child had cut off a length of the cable, bared the wires at the cut end, and attached them to the brass door-knob of his brother's room. Fortunately, this had blown the fuse straight away. I do wonder what became of this delightful child. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I do wonder what became of this delightful child. At a guess, Strangeways prison. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Huw Griffiths Posted July 21, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 21, 2016 I remember my little sister (she would have been perhaps five at the time) deciding that the electric fire in the living room was a bit dull, and needed 'livening up'. Apparently, the poker from the 'companion set' on the hearth was just the job. Mum and I were getting tea ready in the kitchen, when there was a loud bang, and the lights went out. Remarkably, sister was unscathed, but sitting against the wall on the other side of the room. It was a good job I hadn't been in the room, as I'd have got the blame as usual. More alarming, in many ways, was the incident involving the six year old son of a friend. The father had borrowed an extension lead; when I got it back, it was shorter, and the plug had been changed. Said (very precocious, and possibly psychopathic) child had cut off a length of the cable, bared the wires at the cut end, and attached them to the brass door-knob of his brother's room. Fortunately, this had blown the fuse straight away. I do wonder what became of this delightful child. Electrical engineer? Saying that, this guy also sounds rather like the sort of "state electrician" who might find occasional employment in an American correctional institution. I'm not sure which socket covers this thread is aimed at, but when our children were small we bought a pack of plastic ones, similar to these https://www.amazon.co.uk/NEW-White-Socket-Covers-Safety/dp/B008LBDRQY/ref=sr_1_3?s=baby&ie=UTF8&qid=1469035661&sr=1-3 They seemed to do the trick. If you push a screwdriver into the earth pin inlet on a socket, it lifts the protective gate. You can then push some Yale type house key into the live and neutral inlets Nice sparks? I certainly learned how to fly from one side of the room to the other at an early age. Nearly all safety devices are fallible if you have a curious and inventive mind. Those socket covers - and the screwdriver routine - both remind me rather of a style of mains adaptor that used to be widely sold in the United Arab Emirates. Their mains sockets generally tend to be much the same as those used in the UK - however, some electrical appliances used to be sold there with 2 pin "Euro" plugs. As a way of getting round this mismatch, a number of shops sold "adaptors" which looked very similar to UK socket covers - but with slots in the positions corresponding to "live" and "neutral" pins. The basic method of using these abominations didn't leave much to the imagination - push them into the wall socket, making sure that the remaining rectangular pin goes into the earth slot on the wall socket - then push the 2 pin socket through the slots in the adaptor and into the "live" and "neutral" slots in the socket. I can only assume this added a "buzz" to using mains equipment - much like the "cut price" option of ramming a screwdriver into the earth slot. Shocking. Just plain shocking. Not much more to say, really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I Just stayed in a hotel which had a lot of 'Family' rooms, and was quite intrigued to see a ye olde 15A round pin socket on the skirting board of the dining room! These are the ones that need safety covers - but can you buy them - no! The real big issue with the 13A covers is that they are the perfect tool for defeating the safety mechanism. You can spend ages poking things in to the earth hole on a good quality socket and still have trouble getting it open - but get one of these 'Safety' covers and plug it in upside down there is no difficulty at all! It is the perfect engineers accessory, even easier to use than an old earth pin! The simple answer to anyone who still feels they have merit (quite likely after many years of brainwashing with old wives tales) is to just buy only the ones that meet BS1363. Oddly enough none meet the standard, that is how rubbish they are. In the same way many retailers make a nice profit out of tobacco, retailers are not going to stop selling them because they are dangerous, it takes waning customer demand or proper enforcement of safety standards to get rid of them. it is not unreasonable for trading standards to require that anything that is intended to be plugged into a BS1363 socket should as a minimum meet BS1363! A nice fine for a major high street chemist for selling dodgy stuff should highlight how much money has been fleeced from ill-informed customers over the years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I must say that I liked the instruction in the linked article about ensuring 'responsible disposal'. It shows that they take the risk seriously and are not just giving it lip service. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted July 22, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 22, 2016 I Just stayed in a hotel which had a lot of 'Family' rooms, and was quite intrigued to see a ye olde 15A round pin socket on the skirting board of the dining room! These are the ones that need safety covers - but can you buy them - no! At the risk of going off-topic, has anyone else come across these lately, and are they making a comeback? Reason for asking is we stayed here in May (the Whitbarrow Hotel at Whitbarrow Village): http://www.booking.com/hotel/gb/the-ullswater-at-whitbarrow-village.en-gb.html?aid=311076;label=the-ullswater-at-whitbarrow-village-*Q0sHqBG7shhpReKq_rnzgS114157603360%3Apl%3Ata%3Ap1%3Ap2925%2C000%3Aac%3Aap1t1%3Aneg%3Afi%3Atiaud-146342137270%3Akwd-87269744654%3Alp9045357%3Ali%3Adec%3Adm;sid=b29a85f96520d6590fb2b12da34aa549;dcid=4;dest_id=900049830;dest_type=city;dist=0;room1=A%2CA;sb_price_type=total;srfid=576e06322fcbc0ed224ad96058728d08ddac8a76X1;type=total;ucfs=1& This is quite a modern place. In our room most sockets were 13amp but the bedside lamps and standard lamps were rounded sockets - presumably 15amp. Most odd. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 At the risk of going off-topic, has anyone else come across these lately, and are they making a comeback? Reason for asking is we stayed here in May (the Whitbarrow Hotel at Whitbarrow Village): http://www.booking.com/hotel/gb/the-ullswater-at-whitbarrow-village.en-gb.html?aid=311076;label=the-ullswater-at-whitbarrow-village-*Q0sHqBG7shhpReKq_rnzgS114157603360%3Apl%3Ata%3Ap1%3Ap2925%2C000%3Aac%3Aap1t1%3Aneg%3Afi%3Atiaud-146342137270%3Akwd-87269744654%3Alp9045357%3Ali%3Adec%3Adm;sid=b29a85f96520d6590fb2b12da34aa549;dcid=4;dest_id=900049830;dest_type=city;dist=0;room1=A%2CA;sb_price_type=total;srfid=576e06322fcbc0ed224ad96058728d08ddac8a76X1;type=total;ucfs=1& This is quite a modern place. In our room most sockets were 13amp but the bedside lamps and standard lamps were rounded sockets - presumably 15amp. Most odd. I wonder if these lamps worked off a special supply of some sort? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2016 I wonder if these lamps worked off a special supply of some sort? Low voltage supply for LEDs perhaps? (although Whitbarrow's been there for longer than LED lights, unless there's been some building going on since I last slogged up the hill - normally I don't get past the Boot and Shoe at the bottom). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 It is traditional to use BS546 2A sockets (or sometimes 5A) for table lamps, these are fed from the low current lighting circuit and usually switched with light switches on the wall. The modern ones are shuttered just like BS1363. Here is the MK Logic Plus one:- https://www.mkelectric.com/en-gb/Products/WD/logicplus/socketoutlets/Pages/K770WHI.aspx They are available in 5A and 15A too. Before you get too carried away though with replacing all your sockets for a retro feel, the plugs (generally) don't have fuses so you cannot put them on a ring main! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted July 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2016 Interesting, Australia doesn't have fused power plugs, or shuttered sockets. But these type of safety covers are extensively used without a problem, unless pulled out. They certainly can't be inserted upside down, as the active & neutral pins are at 45 degrees. I'd been more concerned about dodgy cords (even old rubber cords!) which are frayed, incorrectly wired equipment or lets be honest, equipment in the hands of fools! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Reorte Posted July 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2016 Interesting, Australia doesn't have fused power plugs, or shuttered sockets. I assume they don't use ring mains then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Steven B Posted July 22, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 22, 2016 Why would a ring main make a difference? 240V is 240V regardless of if it comes from one direction or two! Happy modelling. Steven B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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