Warning, So called 'safety' socket covers

[Reorte]

Why would a ring main make a difference? 240V is 240V regardless of if it comes from one direction or two!

With a radial system each radial can be fused or have a circuit breaker at the consumer unit, with a ring main the consumer unit fuse needs to be able to handle to power for the entire ring, which is above what anything plugged into it is rated to handle, so they need their own fuses. The purpose of the fuse in the plug is to protect the cord not the device (since the cord can't handle the current of the ring, 30 or 32 A according to a quick Google).

 

All of that goes with the provision of "I think I read it somewhere."

[Titan]

Why would a ring main make a difference? 240V is 240V regardless of if it comes from one direction or two!

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B

 

Its not the Volts, its the Amps.

 

If a socket is individually wired, then it can have a fuse in the consumer unit appropriate to its use, i.e. a 5 amp socket can have a 5 amp fuse. If the 5 amp socket is wired on to a 30A+ ring main, then a fault could draw 30A+ through it without blowing a fuse which I expect would be plenty to start a fire...

[PatB]

Interesting, Australia doesn't have fused power plugs, or shuttered sockets. But these type of safety covers are extensively used without a problem, unless pulled out. They certainly can't be inserted upside down, as the active & neutral pins are at 45 degrees.

 

I'd been more concerned about dodgy cords (even old rubber cords!) which are frayed, incorrectly wired equipment or lets be honest, equipment in the hands of fools!

 

Our sockets are quite difficult to stick things into though. The pin slots are too skinny to easily get a normal screwdriver blade into, and too narrow for most table knives, thus eliminating a large percentage of the things likely to be stuck in them.

 

i'd like to say that Australians aren't stupid enough to need further protection but, unfortunately, would be lying, as evidenced by the number of 15A plug earth pins I've seen filed down so they'll go in a 10A socket D.

 

As for whether we've got ring-mains or not, I'm pretty sure we do, with fuses or MCBs at the distribution board. I believe RCDs are also now compulsory too, although there are still an awful lot of older installations without them.

[PatB]

With a radial system each radial can be fused or have a circuit breaker at the consumer unit, with a ring main the consumer unit fuse needs to be able to handle to power for the entire ring, which is above what anything plugged into it is rated to handle, so they need their own fuses. The purpose of the fuse in the plug is to protect the cord not the device (since the cord can't handle the current of the ring, 30 or 32 A according to a quick Google).

 

All of that goes with the provision of "I think I read it somewhere."

 

 

Its not the Volts, its the Amps.

 

If a socket is individually wired, then it can have a fuse in the consumer unit appropriate to its use, i.e. a 5 amp socket can have a 5 amp fuse. If the 5 amp socket is wired on to a 30A+ ring main, then a fault could draw 30A+ through it without blowing a fuse which I expect would be plenty to start a fire...

 

Sorry, I missed these two posts before replying. I don't know what the current standard is, but my house, wired in the 70s, has a grand total of two fuses at the distribution board. One for the lights and one for the sockets. IIRC the lighting fuse is 5A, and I know the ring-main fuse is 15A because I managed to make it explode last summer by running two portable air-cons simultaneously. There are also three redundant fuse-holders which used to feed a 3-phase airconditioning unit, and a separate circuit breaker, again redundant, which fed a 3-phase instant water heater. Looking at the distribution boards for other installations of similar vintage it appears typical, although it's quite sophisticated in that it's housed in a box on the porch. Plenty of others are on full public view on the verandah.

 

My shed/workshop supply is rather better protected, with a sub-board at the shed positively bristling with MCBs and RCDs. It does, however, feed a big 3-phase ceramic kiln whose current draw is on the frightening side of enormous so over-engineering the whole thing made quite a bit of sense.

[Suzie]

When the BS546 round pin sockets were popular, domestic houses would typically just have a single 5A socket in the house connected to the 'Electric Light' supply as my Grandma called it. Some houses did not even have that hence a lot of appliances were fitted with a BC bayonet plug so things could be plugged in the light fittings! If you were posh with a 40A supply you might have one or two 15A sockets as well in key rooms. All of this is easy enough to fuse individually in the consumer unit, often fused in both live and neutral for added fun.

 

It was realised in the 1940s that the requirement for sockets would go up somewhat with the typical house expected to have around twenty sockets, and these would be a wiring nightmare if they all had to be individually fused in the consumer unit, so BS1363 was born with a ring main and individually fused plugs with square pins that could not be confused. 32A is often not enough for all the plug-in appliances in the modern home so we often have more than one ring main. My house has around forty sockets on three rings (kitchen, upstairs and downstairs) to balance things out in to 32A chunks.

[28XX]

The U.K. is the only country to adopt ring mains almost universally for domestic supplies.

 

There is no rule that says you have to either. Just seperate regs. for the two different systems.

[Danemouth]

My grandparents house had 15 amp sockets - just 5 of them.

 

My parents first council house, built in 1946 had 6 "D & S" sockets - these plugs had a screwed fuse as the live pin - look in the obsolete section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets:_British_and_related_types

 

My current home has 22 double sockets and 6 single sockets - what a difference!

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[96701]

My grandparents house had 15 amp sockets - just 5 of them.

 

My parents first council house, built in 1946 had 6 "D & S" sockets - these plugs had a screwed fuse as the live pin - look in the obsolete section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets:_British_and_related_types

 

My current home has 22 double sockets and 6 single sockets - what a difference!

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

We had Wylex plugs and sockets in our house in Harle Syke still in place in the late 60s.

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[57xx]

With a radial system each radial can be fused or have a circuit breaker at the consumer unit, with a ring main the consumer unit fuse needs to be able to handle to power for the entire ring, which is above what anything plugged into it is rated to handle, so they need their own fuses. The purpose of the fuse in the plug is to protect the cord not the device (since the cord can't handle the current of the ring, 30 or 32 A according to a quick Google).

 

All of that goes with the provision of "I think I read it somewhere."

 

Otherwise known as "A little bit of knowledge is dangerous."

 

Yes, each radial circuit will be fused/MCB at the consumer unit but that does not in anyway make them "safer". If 4mm² wire is used, then that fuse/MCB will still be 32A, it is there to protect the cable. A radial circuit can easily have as many sockets as a ring and the fuse/MCB has to be able to cope with the total load on it same as a ring.

[Reorte]

Otherwise known as "A little bit of knowledge is dangerous."

 

Yes, each radial circuit will be fused/MCB at the consumer unit but that does not in anyway make them "safer". If 4mm² wire is used, then that fuse/MCB will still be 32A, it is there to protect the cable. A radial circuit can easily have as many sockets as a ring and the fuse/MCB has to be able to cope with the total load on it same as a ring.

What's the advantage of the radial if it can carry the same current as the ring?

 

I don't view the "little more knowledge" thing as relevent to me since I don't have a radial circuit I'd inform myself in more detail if I ever had to deal with one. A little knowledge is enough to tell me to leave it to someone else when it comes to mains electricity.

[bertiedog]

I have not seen it mentioned, but the current rules only allow qualified electricians to install or modify household installations (basic, they are many qualifications to the rules). Any work must be tested and approved beyond the socket basically, and proposals have been made to toughen this up more, basically all electrical work must be done by professionals.

Some changes have been held up by the EU, who have not set standards, as each member tends to be partial to their own system. The UK has the toughest standards of all, but is a bit undermined by standards from imported goods over the last 30 years, and the pressure to reduce costs, and allow lower standards, has multiplied with the huge Chinese imports.

 

Pins and socket covers are simply not needed in the UK. it is covered by the BS standards already. Sellers like IKEA are simply foreign companies who are not aware of the UK regulations, or if aware, simply put a profit before common sense.

 

Relevant to model railways.......always check plugs have the correct fuses.....never leave wall wart power packs plugged in out of use.....never use coiled up extension leads, they should be a straight run to the device, or as near as possible.....Any permanent extension wiring should be inspected......

 

Stephen.

[57xx]

What's the advantage of the radial if it can carry the same current as the ring?

 

It's easier to wire. The electrician will just have to run the one wire out to where ever the radial circuit is supplying e.g. a kitchen. He doesn't have to worry about then running a return wire and balancing the ring.

[bertiedog]

Also a bit of confusion may have crept in about radial and rings, rings are the accepted standard, as it is not just the ring structure, but the whole distribution to the socket and beyond to the plug and the lead, you cannot alter part of the system to taste!

After saying this of course there are variants, but this is for pro's not amateurs.

You cannot mix and match the two systems, a ring wired house should be instantly obvious as such by the modern flat pin plugs. If it was found that the sockets are not on a ring, then regulations have been broken, but it does not mean it is unsafe.

Electricity is not unsafe, it is the person sticking his finger into the socket who is the unsafe part!... in house wiring little or partial knowledge is a very dangerous thing.........and very terminal indeed.

Stephen

[bertiedog]

It's easier to wire. The electrician will just have to run the one wire out to where ever the radial circuit is supplying e.g. a kitchen. He doesn't have to worry about then running a return wire and balancing the ring.

Sorry but the reason it is not used as such is the problem of the distribution box approach being cluttered with more cabling than required with rings. This was one of the first points made by Lord Reith's Committee that lead to the adoption of ring mains.

Spur single feeds are allowed, but must be individually fused,(or modern breaker), but they increase the size of the distribution box needed, and really clutter up the cabling if many are used.

Most installations these days are designed to be user friendly, and are kept small and neat to prevent them looking to complex to the average consumer.

[81C]

I haven't read right through this thread but several have mentioned the wall plates (socket fronts, light switches) are more than 10 years old, all of the electricians who have worked for me have advised to change these every 10 years for an average used socket 5 years if plugs are constantly going in and out or if the plug feels loose in the socket you can get quiet a belt (shock) off a socket if it's old and the plug is also worn, in any event contact a Qualified Electrician if you are in doubt .

[bertiedog]

I haven't read right through this thread but several have mentioned the wall plates (socket fronts, light switches) are more than 10 years old, all of the electricians who have worked for me have advised to change these every 10 years for an average used socket 5 years if plugs are constantly going in and out or if the plug feels loose in the socket you can get quiet a belt (shock) off a socket if it's old and the plug is also worn, in any event contact a Qualified Electrician if you are in doubt .

Age related problems are usually wear and previous failures that have carbonised part of the plastic insulation. Cost and the maker does come into this, decent UK makers like MK (and older closed down UK makers), made plugs and sockets to last far more than ten years....modern Chinese last as long as they are designed to, which is a short life!

A plug or socket in good condition will be safe, it is the leads and loose screws that alter things....when did you last inspect a lead for nicks and crushing?

And it's not a matter of doubt with a wall socket, it is the law now that you cannot change it yourself if un-qualified. The regulations allow the plug to be changed, that's all...but even this is being considered as a ban as well.

 

Stephen

[Suzie]

I haven't read right through this thread but several have mentioned the wall plates (socket fronts, light switches) are more than 10 years old, all of the electricians who have worked for me have advised to change these every 10 years for an average used socket 5 years if plugs are constantly going in and out or if the plug feels loose in the socket you can get quiet a belt (shock) off a socket if it's old and the plug is also worn, in any event contact a Qualified Electrician if you are in doubt .

 

This is one of the reasons that excessively plugging and unplugging things unnecessarily has a negative effect on safety. I have some sockets in the house that are 60+ years old, and because they are a quality make are still up to the job, being used infrequently. The safety of a product that is designed for a long life bares little relationship to its age, but a lot to its quality. If you are expecting to change sockets every ten years you are not going to buy a quality item, and instead might have something from a Welsh holiday resort that will go brown and fall apart after five years. I think the electrician might have been fishing for unnecessary extra work.

 

If it is excessively loose, tight, discoloured, cracked, has an unreliable switch, or you have doubts about it get it checked or replaced. The sockets are likely to last longer than the wiring (which was the case with my house).

[bertiedog]

I should add I trained as a GPO phones engineer, gaining many qualifications in electrical engineering. but in theory I am not allowed to do my own wiring.......although I can inspect other peoples.......

 

Two things frightened me in the electrical world, the US mains system (stands by for flack!), and a friend in the Model boat club, who set a boat alight by radio control due to his complete and utter lack of knowledge of even 12volt DC.....he approached me in a store where I was buying some cable, and asked advice on fitting two switches to control one light....he confided to me that his landlord had told him not to do it.....and I heartedly concurred, and told him I had no idea how to do it!!!..and call an electrician...

 

I had once looked into the interior of one of his boats, and it was like a vision of pure satanic electrical hell, and fitted with a battery that could deliver 40 Amp hours.... all wired up with bell wire or scrap mains cable. This one did not catch fire, it blew up too quickly for flames to take hold as it sank.

 

 

Stephen

[MJI]

Given that my 2 year old regularly copys daddy by carrying screwdrivers and various tools around the house, do I particularly want to run the risk of him inserting something, be it a tool or toy, into a plug socket?

 

No thanks.

 

I'll put a cover in them (which are also nigh on wife proof incidentally).

 

Just right for forcing into an opened socket.

 

Safer with out the covers

[MJI]

Yes, I did wonder myself whether there was any firm evidence of injuries with or without.

 

Part of the concern seems to be that kids can fiddle about with them, remove them, turn them upside down putting just the earth plug in and then stick a paper clip in the live socket.

 

Yes, they could.

 

Equally, they could stick something into the earth port on a standard socket so depressing the shutters and stick a paper clip in....

 

Not convinced they are necessary in the first place but equally not convinced that they are such major safety issue.

 

Not many things you can use but one of the best are earth pins off these socket covers

 

[Titan]

Not many things you can use but one of the best are earth pins off these socket covers

 

 

Exactly. Without the cover you need two tools and two hands - one for the earth and one for the other, which also requires a significant amount of dexterity. The 'safety' socket not only provides for the tool to open the shutter, it will stay there by itself hands free so only one tool/hand with very little dexterity is required making electrocution far more likely.

[Suzie]

Perhaps we need a bit of 'Things that you can't do without a socket protector'.

 

1. Open the shutter for easy access to the live bits.
2. Hold a couple of wires securely in the live and neutral without using a plug.
3. ...

[HeeleyBridge]

You are a miserable bunch. Let the kids have some fun. They get no excitement like we used to.

 

Stick your finger in there son. If your eyes light up we'll know it's live.

 

We only got rid of the round pin sockets in Mum's house about 6 years ago, when I finally convinced her to get it rewired. I think it was originally wired (by drunken plumbers in their lunch hour) about 1936, downstair only, gas lights (upstairs until 1960), then lights only - no sockets. Hoovers and irons ran off bakelite bayonet plugs from the light sockets ... Emergency fuse wire was a 3" nail.

 

Luxury ...

[81C]

 

Perhaps we need a bit of 'Things that you can't do without a socket protector'.

 

1. Open the shutter for easy access to the live bits.
2. Hold a couple of wires securely in the live and neutral without using a plug.
3. ...

 

You would be surprised at the number of wires hanging out of sockets I've see when customers called me to fit a plug, one house just had the wires hanging out of a hole in the wall with the appliance wires twisted up with them, the owner    said she was fed up with replacing fuses it doesn't bear thinking about.