RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2016 Bought a couple of "NEW MODEL" Carless Petrol tankers today, shock and horror when I unpacked them at home they have the old humongous style D couplings, (they are free to any one who pays the packing/postage) it's clear they are not moving with the times regarding these items. PAH As with the "hearse car" of the Winston Churchill Funeral Pack ...which is basically a Triang makeover and sticks out like the proverbial sore thumb.Not good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bourneagain Posted August 30, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 30, 2016 With the financial losses that Hornby are reported to be occurring, together with the steep rises in production costs, is this the start of the slippery slope of cost savings that we can expect in future? I for one hope not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted August 30, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2016 QC is a different issue from fidelity to prototype. My Winston Churchill hearse is crude and basic but I knew that when I ordered the train pack. In terms of build quality it is very good, the paint finish is excellent. Conversely the finest model in the world in terms of fidelity to prototype could be hobbled by poor build quality. In terms of manufacturing, quality assurance is not about perfection, it is about manufacturing to the agreed specifications and acceptance criteria. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 'Fit for purpose', it's just that in this hobby some are more prepared to compromise a little more than others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted August 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 31, 2016 With the financial losses that Hornby are reported to be occurring, together with the steep rises in production costs, is this the start of the slippery slope of cost savings that we can expect in future? I for one hope not. We forget that Hornby's issues with qc have been evident for years.We post here as if it is a new trend.It simply is not and has little to do with their current financial position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted August 31, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 31, 2016 A point about batch testing that many may be unaware of is that there is an acceptable rate of failure that will allow the entire batch to be passed as acceptable. For example, in a run of 1000 locos perhaps 5 will be taken out and tested. If only 2 of them fail to work properly that batch will be given a pass. As Alfsboy says, the overwhelming amount of product goes to the customer without being checked. I worked in the nuclear industry testing the linings for Uranium enriching centrifuges. I can't remember the exact figures but these are the ball parks / general procedure Each day we used to get samples from 560 components, we would then randomly pick (well the computer did) 20 components and test each one (to destruction in this case) - if we had multiple failures the batch would be rejected, a single failure and we would sample a further random 50 components, any failures then mean the whole batch was rejected, if all 50 passed the batch was accepted aside from the failure. This methodology was based on something called the AOQL - allowable overall quality level (the O and A may have been the other way around). There were tables available to give the confidence factor and the sample size altered accordingly, I think we went for 99% confidence but it's been 30+ years since I did that job. If we were prepared to go for say 80% confidence then the sample size decreased. 100% confidence could only be used on non-destructive sample testing. https://qualityinspection.org/what-is-the-aql/ for further info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big James Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) It's not just Hornby who's quality control is slipping. At one point I used to by a new locomotive with a certain wariness because I had a period where every loco I bought failed. I had a King Arthur where the whole front bogie come away because it wasn't screwed on properly I then sent it to Hornby for repair and had it back within the month good as new, I also had a 4MT tank that I bought of eBay sold as new and you could tell it had never been run that wouldn't work for the life of me. I stripped down rebuilt the chassis nothing no signs of life what so ever. Even when I told the Bachman rep when I happened to bump into him at my local model shop he just shrugged his shoulders and said it was out of warranty. In the end it turned into a matter of pride to get it working but I never did get it working so it got put back on eBay. And these was from team blue box and team red box. I think batch testing is good in theory but isn't practical to carry out. I work in the food industry and if something is contaminated then the whole lot is subject to a recall, if one item comes back with a foreign object in it then it gets flagged up in case more come back then if another one comes back the whole lot get withdrawn. But it's just my opinion for what it's worth. But it wouldn't stop me buying anymore locomotives. Even after all the heat the star got I bought one cause I think it looks beautiful. Big James Edited August 31, 2016 by Big James Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 Fit for purpose is definitely NOT a definition of quality, although it is often quoted as such. FFP is only a short step from "It will do", which is only another short step from "What can we get away with?" Nobody would say that either of those was a definition of quality. I spent most of my working life as a quality engineer and it was often stressed the only definition of quality is Conformance to specification. It then depends on what the specification is and how it is interpreted. We were a manufacturing company and the specification was set by the customer, some of them had a broad view as to what their specification was. Others left no leeway at all, which didn't matter as long as we knew where we stood. Let me try to simplify this; I need a car to get to and from work. I can have a BMW 7 series or a Lada Riva. Both will do the job and therefore are fit for purpose. Not many cool headed people would say they are both of the same quality however. That is because we move the goalposts, perhaps subconsciously, we see something basic side by side with an equivalent product with all the bells and whistles and mentally change the specification. Thanks to Beast for reminding me that batch testing is more intense than my earlier post suggested. If we relate this to producing a model locomotive, there are several hundred components all of which should have gone through batch testing so there is a slight chance that a supposedly successful build will have a small component that will fail. Which is no comfort whatever to the poor sap who bought the one that failed. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 ...For example, my wife's car is waiting for a new air-con compressor and a new active cruise control sensor and has had a wheel bearing problem. VW are doing the work under warranty (its a Golf) but as far as she is concerned VW are just not a high quality car, the fact that she has been unlucky is irrelevant to her, she has decided she doesn't want another VW... No doubt she also remembers the model blonde throwing away the fur coat and jewellery but keeping the car keys because 'if only everything in life is as reliable as a Volkswagen!'. After my wife's experiences with her last Polo and mine with my Passat, we both also decided never to buy VW again and often felt like complaining to the Advertising Standards Authority. But, back to Hornby and quality control. I had a B1 that had various parts broken off or loose inside the packaging that could only have occurred at that stage (parts do not get trapped in the 'foldover' protective enclosure by accident - it took several months and escalating of complaints to get Hornby to concede to provide a replacement rather than repair. That was followed by two different 'Clauds' each having QC issues, one not having the full lining along the footplate valance and front steps and the other missing an injector. Having responded to Hornby's request for photographs (the tampo printing error surely could not be a 'one-off'?) I'm still waiting for a reply nearly a year later. I approach each Hornby purchase now with caution and some trepidation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 Bought a couple of "NEW MODEL" Carless Petrol tankers today, shock and horror when I unpacked them at home they have the old humongous style D couplings, (they are free to any one who pays the packing/postage) it's clear they are not moving with the times regarding these items. PAH This is not a problem with build quality, more a question of being unable to replace every wagon they do with something modern. The wagon in question is former Dapol and dates before the NEM pocket era in the UK. Does Hornby use resources upgrading these old wagons to modern standards or do they use them to produce all new wagons (like the SR Cattle, and coke wagons)? I think their chosen choice is more preferred IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 That was followed by two different 'Clauds' each having QC issues, one not having the full lining along the footplate valance and front steps and the other missing an injector. Having responded to Hornby's request for photographs (the tampo printing error surely could not be a 'one-off'?) My understanding re the lining on the valance is that that is how it is. Lack of research, lack of checking the first off, difficulty/cost of getting it any better. I know not the reason (s). It was highlighted in at least one press review. It will be interesting to hear Hornby's response, if you ever do get one. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 My understanding re the lining on the valance is that that is how it is. Lack of research, lack of checking the first off, difficulty/cost of getting it any better. I know not the reason (s). It was highlighted in at least one press review. It will be interesting to hear Hornby's response, if you ever do get one. Bernard But the catalogue and sample livery versions were fine But the production model was rather lacking - here's the LH side - pretty obvious omission! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted September 3, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2016 I believe it was said at the time that the 'Claud' model was released that they were unable to print the lining down the left hand side of the running plate, due to the pipe that runs down that side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvinley Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 A 4F with TTS sound had to go back recently as it locked up in one particular position at slow speeds. Probably bad quartering. The replacement had pickup problems. When I looked under the keeper plate it was absolutely dripping with oil. Not good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black 5 Bear Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 With Hornby, it tends to be who manufacturers what and where. For example, the latest Britannia's produced over the last 12 months are superb. I'm really looking forward to seeing the forthcoming B12 and Merchant Navy, both of which look promising. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 A 4F with TTS sound had to go back recently as it locked up in one particular position at slow speeds. Probably bad quartering. The replacement had pickup problems. When I looked under the keeper plate it was absolutely dripping with oil. Not good. It seems to have become a habit with Hornby now for the last few years. I now strip down new Hornby chassis, and degrease, and replace with Tri-Flow grease, I cover all the gearing, and put a very little on all other working parts - superb stuff. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Triflow-Synthetic-Grease-Teflon-3oz/dp/B000C15MUU/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1472906034&sr=8-17&keywords=tri-flow+lubricant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elvinley Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 Thanks for the tip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted September 5, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2016 No doubt she also remembers the model blonde throwing away the fur coat and jewellery but keeping the car keys because 'if only everything in life is as reliable as a Volkswagen!'. After my wife's experiences with her last Polo and mine with my Passat, we both also decided never to buy VW again and often felt like complaining to the Advertising Standards Authority. But, back to Hornby and quality control. I had a B1 that had various parts broken off or loose inside the packaging that could only have occurred at that stage (parts do not get trapped in the 'foldover' protective enclosure by accident - it took several months and escalating of complaints to get Hornby to concede to provide a replacement rather than repair. That was followed by two different 'Clauds' each having QC issues, one not having the full lining along the footplate valance and front steps and the other missing an injector. Having responded to Hornby's request for photographs (the tampo printing error surely could not be a 'one-off'?) I'm still waiting for a reply nearly a year later. I approach each Hornby purchase now with caution and some trepidation. The funny thing is that my Citroen DS5 which everybody has assured me would be a shoddily built catastrophe has been rock solid and utterly reliable despite having an electrical hybrid power package and automated gear box. My wife’s VW Golf which is supposedly the quality car has turned into a complete lemon, I’m really not impressed by VW warranty either. When the first thing you’re told by the dealer is that if they decide the fault is not a warranty issue then you’ll be charged £138/hr labour for the fault finding, reduced by 50% is you use the dealer for a non-warranty repair, then it really doesn’t give a good impression. Puts you on the back foot and it is like being told that the dealer thinks you’re wasting their time and you’ll pay handsomely if they can worm their way out of admitting it is a warranty issue. Coming on top of the emissions scandal (if VW certified the emissions fraudulently, what else would they have been willing to lie about to secure certification?) I can safe with some certainty that we won’t be getting another VW. On Hornby and model trains, there is no excuse for poor quality if it is a systemic problem. If it is a question that the model is a bit crude, lacking in detail, the wrong shape etc then that make it a poor model but it does not mean that the build quality is poor and there are plenty of examples of rather crude models which are superbly made. Some of the old Marklin models were rather crude and lacking in detail but some of them were almost bomb proof in terms of build quality. Conversely, many brass models made by builders such as Ajin and Samhongsa (who were the manufacturers for many of the very high end US and European brass producers) were built to stunning standards of detail and finish but their running qualities might most politely be described as being variable and despite using generally high quality motors and applying techniques such as compensation. If a buyer finds that their own particular model is a dud because of a fault specific to that particular model then that is bad for the consumer of that model but in the greater scheme of things may not indicate anything about the quality of the manufacturers output beyond that item. If the fault is a systemic fault affecting all models of a batch or a significant percentage of a batch then that is something different and which should not happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 81C Posted September 5, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2016 (edited) Bought a couple of "NEW MODEL" Carless Petrol tankers today, shock and horror when I unpacked them at home they have the old humongous style D couplings, (they are free to any one who pays the packing/postage) it's clear they are not moving with the times regarding these items. PAH It doesn't end there a wheel came off the axle on one of them, all 4 wheels sets are in the bin and nice new Bachmann one's in their place you would like to think new style couplings and the latest wheel set would be put on these old models, fat chance PAH !!! Edited September 5, 2016 by 81C 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 It seems to have become a habit with Hornby now for the last few years. I now strip down new Hornby chassis, and degrease, and replace with Tri-Flow grease, I cover all the gearing, and put a very little on all other working parts - superb stuff. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Triflow-Synthetic-Grease-Teflon-3oz/dp/B000C15MUU/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1472906034&sr=8-17&keywords=tri-flow+lubricant Does it have gold flake too ? That link lists the product at £52.74 ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 I believe it was said at the time that the 'Claud' model was released that they were unable to print the lining down the left hand side of the running plate, due to the pipe that runs down that side. So WTF didn't Hornby have the courtesy to write back with that as an explanation instead of getting me to submit photographs and so on??? When I was in the game, around 85% of system failures were communications-related. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted September 5, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2016 It doesn't end there a wheel came off the axle on one of them, all 4 wheels sets are in the bin and nice new Bachmann one's in their place you would like to think new style couplings and the latest wheel set would be put on these old models, fat chance PAH !!! Yours,Disgusted of East Cheam... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted September 5, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2016 According the Bachmann update in this months Rail Express mag (p. M6) Bachmann have put in place increased testing and inspections during production and after delivery to the warehouse at Barwell. And they are doing decorated samples on all models from now on to avoid decor blunders. Be interesting to see if Hornby step up too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted September 5, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2016 Yours,Disgusted of East Cheam... We must be neighbours. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 5, 2016 Share Posted September 5, 2016 Does it have gold flake too ? That link lists the product at £52.74 ! Oh yes, or alternatively ;- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Tri-Flow-Clear-Synthetic-Grease-with-Teflon-3-oz-Tube-/262455853164?hash=item3d1b96806c:g:XogAAOSw-KFXd0hQ I'm still using a small (-ish) tub I bought 20 years ago, that's been enough to service a few hundred OO gauge ( and a few O gauge) locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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