ScotRail operations 1980s-privitisation

[keefer]

Were they the ones with the flashing yellow lights (old style 'police' type) on the cab dome or was that for something else?

[peanuts]

Were they the ones with the flashing yellow lights (old style 'police' type) on the cab dome or was that for something else?

think that was for the experimental "creep " control for load/unload through the coal bunkers but may have been the same locos 

[Flood]

The two with orange flashing lights were 47277 and 47373.

 

47277 in 1974: http://class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=1367051012200

and in 1985: http://class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=0376020025000

 

47373 in 1988 in Railfreight livery but still with the light holder in place:http://class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=1108051475200

more photos are on the Class47.co.uk site

 

 

For the multiple connected 47s:

47370 in 1975: http://class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=0950050035200

and in 1984 without the cables but still with the holders:http://class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=1179051203200

 

47379 in 1975:http://class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=1442051000200 (note the different holder position)

and in 1981 still the same:http://class47.co.uk/c47_zoom_v3.php?img=0354051003200

[64B]

Hi Derekstuart,

 

I'm glad you and others found the spot interesting and informative.

The 47/7 and DBSO system in Scotland was designed and supplied by Brush and was an FDM system, so it modulated different frequencies to transmit the different channels/messages used to control the loco from the DBSO and for the loco to send messages back to the DBSO. 

 

The systems used on the West Coast mainline and East Coast mainline were designed and supplied by Plessey and they were (are) TDM systems so the different channels are transmitted during predetermined, discrete time-slots in a predetermined sequence. Interestingly, the Mark 4 coaches on the ECML use TDM to control the Class 91 from the DBSO, but they also have an FDM system as well. This is used for control within the rake and is used for air conditioning control, lighting control etc.

 

Another interesting feature of the Brush system was that Channel 1 which was "Engine Start" on the Class 47/7 was also described in the manual as being "Pan Up & Reset" on the Class 81 loco! The Class 81s were never fitted, but the system was designed to be used with them. For each Class 47/7 channel, there was an equivalent described in the manual for the Class 81.

 

 

 

I have just found this thread.  I had some experience with the Brush two wire control systems through my involvement in commissioning the control systems on the class 47/7s and DBSOs for the Edinburgh to Glasgow push pull service. I can confirm Dunedin's post above in that it was definitely a FDM system.  The FM module at the bottom right hand side of the module rack, if I recall was made by Ripper Electronics and provided the communications between loco and DBSO. 

 

Sorry about the top photo being 90 degrees out - not sure how to rotate this.

Second photo shows is a more general view of the two wire control system. The loco is 47704.

 

regards

Neil

[Bob Reid]

If I remember right Neil the Ripper units for D/G communications were in separate boxes in each cab (above the screen on a 47/7, behind the switch panel on the DBSO)? Was the FM module not the first in line after the RCH cables? Where's Bill Prentice when you need him, he'd have kept you right

[64B]

If I remember right Neil the Ripper units for D/G communications were in separate boxes in each cab (above the screen on a 47/7, behind the switch panel on the DBSO)? Was the FM module not the first in line after the RCH cables? Where's Bill Prentice when you need him, he'd have kept you right

Hi Bob,

I have just tried to find some of the documentation I had from Brush which showed the system schematically but can't find it just now. I don't recall if the D/G communications was integrated with the two wire control system or not. We had I think one day's training in Derby including some sessions with the Brush design engineers more just an overview really.

 

Yes Bill always kept me right

[slilley]

think that was for the experimental "creep " control for load/unload through the coal bunkers but may have been the same locos 

 

This is a quote from the relevant section of Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History.

 

In February 1970 locomotive No 1979 had an orange flashing light fitted above the cab at each end for use as a warning device when passing through collieries and power stations at very slow speed. This was connected to a series of tests and experiments that were carried out at Ferrybridge Power Station in West Yorkshire. Their aim was to develop a remote control system for the locomotive so that the driver did not need to be on board during the discharge phase at least of the MGR operation.  The loco retained the fitting until the early 1980s when it was removed. Later in July 1975 a similar fitting was also applied to No 47373, another of the Knottingley outbased locomotives. After the use of the light was discontinued on No 47373 and removed, the base section of the fitting remained.

 

Regards

 

Simon

[St Enodoc]

Ray's leather jackets were as legendary as his skill with the 47/7's..... Nearly as legendary as one Bill Prentice

 

That would be William Barclay Prentice Esq to you young Robert!

[St Enodoc]

99% sure there was also one in Railway Modeller around then as I was a subscriber and did the conversion. I still have it and my Scotrail Lima Mk3's today

 

That's probably the article I wrote on how to convert a Hornby 47 and Airfix BSO to push-pull stock. I've still got the full set including 5 Jouef Mk 3a coaches.

[St Enodoc]

Hi Derekstuart,

Not at all; we were both Senior Technical Officers (STOs) back in the day. We were responsible for managing the reliability of the fleet, which meant understanding the reasons why it wasn't reliable, which varied from design issues, wear-out, inappropriate maintenance regimes, poor quality spares and also poor workmanship/lack of understanding of the technicalities of the fleet by the maintainers. It meant that we never quite knew what the day would bring. It meant that you needed to know, or be prepared to learn, pretty much everything about everything on the fleet. Ray had far more experience than I did - he'd been doing the job for over ten years by the time I arrived there and he carried on doing it for more than another twenty. I don't think he ever stopped learning and never really got bored with it. The photo was taken in the summer of 1986, when Ray was covering the depot engineer's post (depot manager) while he was away on holiday, hence he'd swapped his dust coat for a jacket.

 

I actually think back on that job - the first in my railway career - as being the one that I've enjoyed the most. Ray and I had a great deal of fun and a lot of laughs. Somehow, we just clicked and we kept in touch over the years. My job in Bombardier eventually took me back to Haymarket on a regular basis and when it did, we would usually go for a pint and a bite to eat. Ray gave me a great deal of advice and encouragement during the building of Aberdeen Kirkhill. He enjoyed seeing the photos and the magazine articles; just a shame he never got to see it for real, but then that just proves that we all need to make the most of the moment, because you never know what is around the corner!

 

Ray and I spent a good deal of the summer of 1979 commissioning the E&G sets, including some fun times in and around Derby. Running up and down the Old Dalby test track and then main line testing between Derby and Birmingham were probably the highlights. We (and others) also spent a good deal of time in the locos when the DBSO was leading to reset the push-pull modules if necessary after water had got into the jumpers, pending the mod to turn them through 180 degrees.

[St Enodoc]

Hi Bob,

I have just tried to find some of the documentation I had from Brush which showed the system schematically but can't find it just now. I don't recall if the D/G communications was integrated with the two wire control system or not. We had I think one day's training in Derby including some sessions with the Brush design engineers more just an overview really.

 

Yes Bill always kept me right

 

Neil, I don't think there was any connection between the D/G and the two-wire other than the use of the same pairs of wires. I think all the two-wire gear came from Brush. I've still got all my notes and manuals somewhere so will try to confirm when I have a chance (and yes Bob, I haven't forgotten that I still need to try to find you some photos!).

[Bob Reid]

I knew you wouldn't forget... Talking of your article, in celebration of what it was like "back in the day" I'm currently rebuilding of 5 x Jouef Mk3's for one of two sets.  The other will be entirely RTR though.
 

[CliveM]

Agree with all the above.  Just to add, the 47/7's had a more accurate speedo too, clearer and more finely calibrated up to 100 mph.  Also, inside the cabs, above the windows all 47 loco's had a reminder Max speed 95 mph, except the converted loco's, Max speed 100 mph.  They also had a slightly different layout within the engine room for CO2 bottles, something to do with them being operated in push mode, canot recall.  Early conversions took place at Crewe with testing down the Shrewbury branch on a standard class 2 service, usually with a class 33 tucked inside.  The loco came off at Shrewsbury and returned light engine to Crewe.  It then worked light engine to Edge Hill in the early hours, was checked and refuelled.  Then worked the first empty stock down to Lime Street the following morning, usually for the 07.05 and the loco eventually worked its way back to Scotland on the first Newcastle service.  I recall 47 704 fresh off Crewe in the large logo livery, she was immaculate and I had the pleasure of driving her (albeit only from the shed, to the carriage sidings and down to Lime St station!!!).  I wouldn't dwell too much on the 95 mph restriction on standard 47's, most drivers would do + if and when they could on class 1 duties. 

[keefer]

The CO2 bottle were presumably for the automatic fire system required for a p/p loco when at the back.

The cl.27 p/p locos had this, but if a 'normal' loco was at the back it had to be manned.

[CliveM]

 

The CO2 bottle were presumably for the automatic fire system required for a p/p loco when at the back.

The cl.27 p/p locos had this, but if a 'normal' loco was at the back it had to be manned.

 

Yes, thanks for that.  I simply couldn't remember that far back as we didn't get many 47/7's.  

[Waverley47708]

Found these two on Flickr which may be of interest. The first is a group, British Rail Edinburgh to Glasgow push pull photos, the second is a gallery, ScotRail Express

 

https://www.flickr.com/groups/2858153@N25/

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151135632@N04/galleries/72157683868581784/

 

Enjoy.

[Legend]

People forget how revolutionary these trains were. In one fell swoop the E&G line was upgraded to Mk3 air conditioned comfort. A truly inter city train , not these commuter 170s or forthcoming 385s . I think this was the most comfortable service we have ever enjoyed. Ok the service is now every 15 mins so is definitely improved, but I don’t think you could say more comfortable

 

I remember seeing my first 47/7, 47705 Lothian at the buffer stops at Glasgow Central. Would have been in the spring of 79. Flush front , grey roof although only in BR blue not large logo , she looked very impressive. A great time for the Railways , HSTs on the ECML, push pull on the E&G , the forthcoming APT. British Rail wasn’t all bad.....

[St Enodoc]

Agree with all the above.  Just to add, the 47/7's had a more accurate speedo too, clearer and more finely calibrated up to 100 mph.  Also, inside the cabs, above the windows all 47 loco's had a reminder Max speed 95 mph, except the converted loco's, Max speed 100 mph.  They also had a slightly different layout within the engine room for CO2 bottles, something to do with them being operated in push mode, canot recall.  Early conversions took place at Crewe with testing down the Shrewbury branch on a standard class 2 service, usually with a class 33 tucked inside.  The loco came off at Shrewsbury and returned light engine to Crewe.  It then worked light engine to Edge Hill in the early hours, was checked and refuelled.  Then worked the first empty stock down to Lime Street the following morning, usually for the 07.05 and the loco eventually worked its way back to Scotland on the first Newcastle service.  I recall 47 704 fresh off Crewe in the large logo livery, she was immaculate and I had the pleasure of driving her (albeit only from the shed, to the carriage sidings and down to Lime St station!!!).  I wouldn't dwell too much on the 95 mph restriction on standard 47's, most drivers would do + if and when they could on class 1 duties. 

47704 in large logo must have been after overhaul. 704 was the first loco released after conversion and was used for all the testing out of Derby, including on the Old Dalby test track and the Birmingham main line. It was in standard small logo blue at that time. I have a feeling (Bob-65b might be able to verify) that 711 and 712 were the first locos delivered in large logo livery.

[St Enodoc]

The CO2 bottle were presumably for the automatic fire system required for a p/p loco when at the back.

The cl.27 p/p locos had this, but if a 'normal' loco was at the back it had to be manned.

Pressing the fire bell test button in the DBSO and then hearing the bell ring was a good test that the p/p gear was working.

[GordonC]

47704 in large logo must have been after overhaul. 704 was the first loco released after conversion and was used for all the testing out of Derby, including on the Old Dalby test track and the Birmingham main line. It was in standard small logo blue at that time. I have a feeling (Bob-65b might be able to verify) that 711 and 712 were the first locos delivered in large logo livery.

 

I wasn't aware 47704 was ever in large logo livery. Did it just have the silver roof on standard BR blue livery?

[Legend]

I thought it was only 711 and 712 that got large logo livery back in 81, when 712 was named Lady Diana Spencer. I don’t recall any others having large logo livery. They had silver roofs certainly , but I think they went from that condition straight to ScotRail blue stripe. Maybe wrong though. While it feels like yesterday it was 35 years ago!

[CliveM]

 

47704 in large logo must have been after overhaul. 704 was the first loco released after conversion and was used for all the testing out of Derby, including on the Old Dalby test track and the Birmingham main line. It was in standard small logo blue at that time. I have a feeling (Bob-65b might be able to verify) that 711 and 712 were the first locos delivered in large logo livery.

Yes, very sorry about the confusion gentlemen.  704 was outshopped in BR Blue, silver roof with the (then) new style headlight as shown in this photo (photographer unkown).  I definately remember 704 circa 82/83 fresh out of works, on the depot (Edge Hill) and working to Newcastle, perhaps not conversion but major overhaul. 

[tractor_37260]

I thought it was only 711 and 712 that got large logo livery back in 81, when 712 was named Lady Diana Spencer. I don’t recall any others having large logo livery. They had silver roofs certainly , but I think they went from that condition straight to ScotRail blue stripe. Maybe wrong though. While it feels like yesterday it was 35 years ago!

 

 

 I recall 47 704 fresh off Crewe in the large logo livery, she was immaculate and I had the pleasure of driving her (albeit only from the shed, to the carriage sidings and down to Lime St station!!!).  I wouldn't dwell too much on the 95 mph restriction on standard 47's, most drivers would do + if and when they could on class 1 duties. 

 

 AFAIK 711/712 were the only 2 - 47/7's that had L/L livery applied -  a link to a photo of 704 in L/L livery would certainly prove interesting........................

[Bob Reid]

We only ever received two E&G 47/7's with the large logo livery - as already mentioned - 47711 & 47712... The rest of them came in plain old "standard BR Blue barely recognisably different from all the others with only the cab front spot lamps to make them stand out (and no white painted compressor aftercooler pipe at that point either)...

 

The money was always spent on the E&G services. It was the regions highest earner hence the capital investment in the Inter-City DMU's, the original Push-Pull's and these 47/7's & Mk3 stock and an inordinate amount of time and money trying (but sometimes failing) to keep it at the top of its game. Competition from the roads especially from the late 1960s onwards with the M8 corridor drove the BR (Scottish Region) Board to keep finding the money for it.

[D854_Tiger]

We only ever received two E&G 47/7's with the large logo livery - as already mentioned - 47711 & 47712... The rest of them came in plain old "standard BR Blue barely recognisably different from all the others with only the cab front spot lamps to make them stand out (and no white painted compressor aftercooler pipe at that point either)...

 

The money was always spent on the E&G services. It was the regions highest earner hence the capital investment in the Inter-City DMU's, the original Push-Pull's and these 47/7's & Mk3 stock and an inordinate amount of time and money trying (but sometimes failing) to keep it at the top of its game. Competition from the roads especially from the late 1960s onwards with the M8 corridor drove the BR (Scottish Region) Board to keep finding the money for it.

 

 

After the class 158s were introduced, I remember quite a few of those 47/7s finding their way to the Waterloo - Exeter route, in place of the class 50s and to help with improving reliability - badly.

 

I don't believe they had taken too kindly to all that intensive 100 mph running up in Scotland and those banks west of Yeovil were the last straw.