ScotRail operations 1980s-privitisation

[tractor_37260]

OK here's a question for all you knowledgeable PP fans on here -  mention is often made of the original BR Blue 47/7's having Silver Roofs.  Were they actually a Silver/Aluminium colour or were they just Rail Grey often referred to as "Silver Grey" ? 

[slilley]

OK here's a question for all you knowledgeable PP fans on here -  mention is often made of the original BR Blue 47/7's having Silver Roofs.  Were they actually a Silver/Aluminium colour or were they just Rail Grey often referred to as "Silver Grey" ? 

 

I have seen some original documents on this from my time researching "Class 47 50 Years of Locomotive History". It seems the colour was described as light grey. The ScR CM&EE Mr GH Passey wanted it done to help staff distinguish these locos from other Class 47s.

[Legend]

The original Stratford locos had silver roofs . It was realised that grey was less expensive or more enduring, so by the time the 47/7s were done it was grey as in the large logo livery.

[St Enodoc]

I wasn't aware 47704 was ever in large logo livery. Did it just have the silver roof on standard BR blue livery?

You may well be right about the large logo - it's all a long time ago now. My recollection of the roof, which may also be wrong, is that it was Rail Grey not silver.

[St Enodoc]

We only ever received two E&G 47/7's with the large logo livery - as already mentioned - 47711 & 47712... The rest of them came in plain old "standard BR Blue barely recognisably different from all the others with only the cab front spot lamps to make them stand out (and no white painted compressor aftercooler pipe at that point either)...

 

The money was always spent on the E&G services. It was the regions highest earner hence the capital investment in the Inter-City DMU's, the original Push-Pull's and these 47/7's & Mk3 stock and an inordinate amount of time and money trying (but sometimes failing) to keep it at the top of its game. Competition from the roads especially from the late 1960s onwards with the M8 corridor drove the BR (Scottish Region) Board to keep finding the money for it.

Thanks Bob. Glad my memory isn't as bad as I thought it might be. The RCH couplers were also a clear distinguishing feature.

 

One of the reasons for the high earnings on the E&G route, as you know but others might not, was that there was (is) a high level of commuter traffic in both directions between the two cities, rather than the more usual tidal flow to and from other large conurbations.

[Bob Reid]

Passey may well have authorised them subsequently however I'm certain it was a Haymarket TMD (local) initiative which became "official" - It wasn't initially done under the 47/7 conversion.

[St Enodoc]

Passey may well have authorised them subsequently however I'm certain it was a Haymarket TMD (local) initiative which became "official" - It wasn't initially done under the 47/7 conversion.

Now you are really testing my memory! I honestly can't remember whether or not the roof on 704 was grey when it was at Derby.

 

Edit: This photo shows blue - and also shows the original configuration of the RCH cables, which later had to be changed after the receptacles filled with water and shorted the plug pins. I think that's a prototype HST coach in the background...

 

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7503/16007396231_3ac9e71608_n.jpg (found on https://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/Derby%20Suburban/).

Edited October 30, 2017 by St Enodoc

[Bob Reid]

Thanks Bob. Glad my memory isn't as bad as I thought it might be. The RCH couplers were also a clear distinguishing feature.

 

One of the reasons for the high earnings on the E&G route, as you know but others might not, was that there was (is) a high level of commuter traffic in both directions between the two cities, rather than the more usual tidal flow to and from other large conurbations.

How could have I forgotten those! - Especially after they added the LPA boxes to the front in bright orange.

 

Traffic seemed to include half of the Scottish Legal system - Barristers and associated "staff", Solicitors for the accused and the defence and often on release from Saughton & Polmont plenty of those who'd been on the wrong end of it. The Scottish Courts didn't take kindly to delays

Edited October 30, 2017 by Bob-65b

[slilley]

I have just found the memo from the Director of Industrial Design JS Cousins at the time  giving permission for the 47/7s to have grey roofs. It is dated 08 May 1979. He says and I quote " I would recommend that the grey used is to BS 4800 No. 00 A 09 which is more a more serviceable colour than the very light grey used by the Eastern Region."

 

Hopefully this sheds a bit more light on the matter. In response to other comments on here about my last posting, Ken Taylor's memo to the Director of Industrial Design which was dated 2nd May 1979 simply says he had received a request from the ScR CM&EE. It could well have been a more localised initiative.

[Bob Reid]

I have just found the memo from the Director of Industrial Design JS Cousins at the time  giving permission for the 47/7s to have grey roofs. It is dated 08 May 1979. He says and I quote " I would recommend that the grey used is to BS 4800 No. 00 A 09 which is more a more serviceable colour than the very light grey used by the Eastern Region."

 

Hopefully this sheds a bit more light on the matter. In response to other comments on here about my last posting, Ken Taylor's memo to the Director of Industrial Design which was dated 2nd May 1979 simply says he had received a request from the ScR CM&EE. It could well have been a more localised initiative.

Many thanks Simon. interesting choice of colour by the Design folk - it looks (at least on a uncalibrated monitor) nothing like the colour they ended up using, as it looks a bit on the dark side...

 

I assume the memo from Ken Taylor wasn't signed by G H Passey then?. He'd have been unlikely to involve himself too much with that kind of detail though no doubt he was aware of it - these letters though often signed by the CM&EE could have originated from one of at least three layers involved below him - HQ Locomotive Engineer, Traction Engineer (Sulzer), his departmental staff or the AME or his staff involved. So difficult to tell after al these years & that's before BREL got a hold of it.

[slilley]

Many thanks Simon. interesting choice of colour by the Design folk - it looks (at least on a uncalibrated monitor) nothing like the colour they ended up using, as it looks a bit on the dark side...

 

I assume the memo from Ken Taylor wasn't signed by G H Passey then?. He'd have been unlikely to involve himself too much with that kind of detail though no doubt he was aware of it - these letters though often signed by the CM&EE could have originated from one of at least three layers involved below him - HQ Locomotive Engineer, Traction Engineer (Sulzer), his departmental staff or the AME or his staff involved. So difficult to tell after al these years & that's before BREL got a hold of it.

 The memo wasnt signed by Taylor, but it does say that he had received a request from the ScR CM&EE. It does start "I have received a request".

 

Amazing what you find tucked away at the National Archives at Kew lol.

 

Just dont get me onto Stratford 47s and the 1981 Royal Wedding!!

 

Simon

[St Enodoc]

Many thanks Simon. interesting choice of colour by the Design folk - it looks (at least on a uncalibrated monitor) nothing like the colour they ended up using, as it looks a bit on the dark side...

 

I assume the memo from Ken Taylor wasn't signed by G H Passey then?. He'd have been unlikely to involve himself too much with that kind of detail though no doubt he was aware of it - these letters though often signed by the CM&EE could have originated from one of at least three layers involved below him - HQ Locomotive Engineer, Traction Engineer (Sulzer), his departmental staff or the AME or his staff involved. So difficult to tell after al these years & that's before BREL got a hold of it.

GHP, Vernon Atkinson, Derek Rose, [the big fella whose name escapes me temporarily] Bob Gebbie, Jim Gardner, Harry Kinnaird, Tom Boyd, Roger Whipp, Duncan Burton, Ian McIntosh, then - a very long way down the list - me.

 

Edit: as you might expect, as soon as I posted this Bob Gebbie's name came straight back to me!

Edited October 31, 2017 by St Enodoc

[Bob Reid]

Somewhat belatedly I read your last posting on this topic only to realise us Carriage Section lot were the poor neighbours staff wise back in those days circa 1979-85 (i.e. before the demise of the CM&EE below GHP we had Colin Boocock, Brian Clementson. David Porter, Jack Sloss, Doug Griffin and me! - few others passed through like Ian Duncan and Alan Chaplin before they moved on to bigger and better things... Lucky we only had the new Mk3's to deal and the old disc Mk2's on the push-pulls.  Being at the bottom of the pile I was over the moon to receive the Mk2f DBSO, Mk3s and Mk3 Sleeper Implementation to deal with alongside Jack Sloss.   We did have Depot STO's (x1 each) at Craigentinny, Cowlairs, Polmadie, Inverness etc. as backup but they were really the AME's staff - Oh and the C&W Inspectors (recognisable by their style of Pork Pie hat) - Bob McLaughlin and John Callaghan and their boss and later, in the Rolling Stock Maintenance Control, mine too Bill Hutchinson.  

​Anecdotally - If you look at the front of the DBSO's (9701-9710) they'll have at times the Set Number 601-606 (which equated to the 5 in service sets daily and the maintenance set) - these were replaceable black on yellow 3M vinyl stickers. Bill Hutchinson, in an effort to keep the DBSO's tied to a particular set asked for them to be stuck to the front of the DBSO associated with that days sets.  i.e. so you would (confusingly) have say DBSO 9703 on 605 set - working Diagram 504 Monday, 505 Tuesday and so on.. It was never going to work - the Mk3's tended to stay together but the DBSO's inevitably got swapped about from one set to the next at times. We only had the six numbers 601-606 and they ended up stuck on 9701 to 9706 in order (9707-9710 could have anything or nothing on them)!  When the late build DBSO's from 9711 were introduced and the change to ScotRail livery came in, Glasgow Works in their infinite wisdom painted them on and gave 9707 onwards 607-614 although by that time the numbers were quite meaningless.  p.s. If I've mentioned all this before (I probably have) then I do apologise!

​Bill Hutchinson sadly whilst returning from a meeting with the AME East was seriously injured at Polmont and was one of the few survivors in 9706. He never regained full health passing away barely two years after, becoming effectively the 14th victim.  A bit of wag though, he gave me a poem "The Tale of the Coo" related to the accident that he'd made up when bored one day trying to recover at home - which I will dig out.

​Happy days all the same!

Edited January 27, 2018 by Bob Reid

[Waverley47708]

 

​Anecdotally - If you look at the front of the DBSO's (9701-9710) they'll have at times the Set Number 601-606 (which equated to the 5 in service sets daily and the maintenance set) - these were replaceable black on yellow 3M vinyl stickers. Bill Hutchinson, in an effort to keep the DBSO's tied to a particular set asked for them to be stuck to the front of the DBSO associated with that days sets.  i.e. so you would (confusingly) have say DBSO 9703 on 605 set - working Diagram 504 Monday, 505 Tuesday and so on.. It was never going to work - the Mk3's tended to stay together but the DBSO's inevitably got swapped about from one set to the next at times. We only had the six numbers 601-606 and they ended up stuck on 9701 to 9706 in order (9707-9710 could have anything or nothing on them)!  When the late build DBSO's from 9711 were introduced and the change to ScotRail livery came in, Glasgow Works in their infinite wisdom painted them on and gave 9707 onwards 607-614 although by that time the numbers were quite meaningless.  p.s. If I've mentioned all this before (I probably have) then I do apologise!

​

 

Thanks, I had not seen this referred to before. I had always wondered what those numbers on the front meant, I had looked for some logic or pattern. Seems there was a reason I couldn't find one....

 

Anyway hopefully your post will kick start this topic again.

[mjkerr]

I never noticed the set numbers swapped, but it may be I only started making notes after about 1986

By that time the set number matched the DBSO, which made it very easy to identify them

Even then some of the DBSO did not have their corresponding 6xx number

Edited January 27, 2018 by mjkerr

[Bob Reid]

We'd six years in with them by then - a lifetime on the E&G!.  As I said, from the early days the numbers 601-606 (when used) could have been fitted to any DBSO but very quickly they ended up matched to their corresponding DBSO no.9701-9706.  9707 to 9710 more often than not ran with none as the company I had making the 3M signs were only asked to 601-606. From early 84 onwards Glasgow Works were instructed to apply them permanently on 9701-9710 initially as 601-610 as they came up for repaint.  This arrangement was carried over onto the ScotRail repaints though it's clear particularly in the last years of the service many either didn't have the transfers applied or were never fitted in the first place. I'm sure that the additional DBSO's (9711-9714) were never fitted with them.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Bob Reid

[kevinlms]

After the class 158s were introduced, I remember quite a few of those 47/7s finding their way to the Waterloo - Exeter route, in place of the class 50s and to help with improving reliability - badly.

 

I don't believe they had taken too kindly to all that intensive 100 mph running up in Scotland and those banks west of Yeovil were the last straw.

Or the ScR had long since worked out, that their locos used on the S&E line, needed special maintenance to run the service anything like reliably, which effectively stopped once transferred away.

 

Exactly what apparently happened to the Class 50s, a decade earlier.

[Bob Reid]

A bit like the push pull 27's before them, the 47/7's that came off the E&G after 10 years had been run into the ground...  They were made reliable enough but only because they were effectively tied to one depot who put a lot of effort into it....

[45125]

A bit like the push pull 27's before them, the 47/7's that came off the E&G after 10 years had been run into the ground...  They were made reliable enough but only because they were effectively tied to one depot who put a lot of effort into it....

 

Some of the 47/7s suffered after transfer away from the E&G services when the field diverts got wired up incorrectly and this affected their performance.

[Tiddles47]

​Anecdotally - If you look at the front of the DBSO's (9701-9710) they'll have at times the Set Number 601-606 (which equated to the 5 in service sets daily and the maintenance set) - these were replaceable black on yellow 3M vinyl stickers. Bill Hutchinson, in an effort to keep the DBSO's tied to a particular set asked for them to be stuck to the front of the DBSO associated with that days sets.  i.e. so you would (confusingly) have say DBSO 9703 on 605 set - working Diagram 504 Monday, 505 Tuesday and so on.. It was never going to work - the Mk3's tended to stay together but the DBSO's inevitably got swapped about from one set to the next at times. We only had the six numbers 601-606 and they ended up stuck on 9701 to 9706 in order (9707-9710 could have anything or nothing on them)!  When the late build DBSO's from 9711 were introduced and the change to ScotRail livery came in, Glasgow Works in their infinite wisdom painted them on and gave 9707 onwards 607-614 although by that time the numbers were quite meaningless.  p.s. If I've mentioned all this before (I probably have) then I do apologise!

​

 

Thanks, I had not seen this referred to before. I had always wondered what those numbers on the front meant, I had looked for some logic or pattern. Seems there was a reason I couldn't find one....

 

Anyway hopefully your post will kick start this topic again.

Thanks for that, you've answered a question that's been had me wondering. Did the Mk3 sets stay in a semi-permanent state? (for arguements sake) 12015, 12017, 12019, 11907 and 9707?  I'm guessing the DBSO's were swapped about regularly but the MK3's stayed as the were (with the occasional swap out for a repair etc?)  

 

Also how many FO's gained ScR livery before conversion to CO.  The Ian Allan book that i have shows a FO  on the 1986 cover but crucially the page with the numbers on is missing. The cover shows no set no. on DBSO) but on the 1987 its there's a CO and the DBSO has 607 on the front. 

 

Anyone help?

Edited February 7, 2018 by Tiddles47

[Waverley47708]

Just to be clear something went wrong with my use of "reply quoting this post" in that it looks like I am more knowledgeable than I actually am!.  It was Bob Reid who wrote the below and not me - sorry for any confusion

 

"Anecdotally - If you look at the front of the DBSO's (9701-9710) they'll have at times the Set Number 601-606 (which equated to the 5 in service sets daily and the maintenance set) - these were replaceable black on yellow 3M vinyl stickers. Bill Hutchinson, in an effort to keep the DBSO's tied to a particular set asked for them to be stuck to the front of the DBSO associated with that days sets.  i.e. so you would (confusingly) have say DBSO 9703 on 605 set - working Diagram 504 Monday, 505 Tuesday and so on.. It was never going to work - the Mk3's tended to stay together but the DBSO's inevitably got swapped about from one set to the next at times. We only had the six numbers 601-606 and they ended up stuck on 9701 to 9706 in order (9707-9710 could have anything or nothing on them)!  When the late build DBSO's from 9711 were introduced and the change to ScotRail livery came in, Glasgow Works in their infinite wisdom painted them on and gave 9707 onwards 607-614 although by that time the numbers were quite meaningless.  p.s. If I've mentioned all this before (I probably have) then I do apologise!"

[hexagon789]

It's been a while since I posted in this thread, but I've been looking at some photos on various sites for inspiration, always a dangerous pastime (!) and in doing so I came across a shot of a 47/7 push-pull set at Haymarket. In the background, facing westwards towards Glasgow there is one of the original-style HST differential speed boards with HST 100 on it. Presently the linespeed out of Haymarket is 90 until about half a mile before Edinburgh Park station. So my question is why and when did the PSRs change (was it because the 158s coukd only "officially" do 90 or something of that nature) and what were the 100 mph sections on the Edinburgh and Glasgow at the time of the Class 47/7s? My grateful thanks for everyone's patience in dealing with my oft altogether very difficult to answer questions, I don't intend to make them so difficult, honest, they just always seem to end up that way!

[mjkerr]

It's been a while since I posted in this thread, but I've been looking at some photos on various sites for inspiration, always a dangerous pastime (!) and in doing so I came across a shot of a 47/7 push-pull set at Haymarket. In the background, facing westwards towards Glasgow there is one of the original-style HST differential speed boards with HST 100 on it. Presently the linespeed out of Haymarket is 90 until about half a mile before Edinburgh Park station. So my question is why and when did the PSRs change (was it because the 158s coukd only "officially" do 90 or something of that nature) and what were the 100 mph sections on the Edinburgh and Glasgow at the time of the Class 47/7s? My grateful thanks for everyone's patience in dealing with my oft altogether very difficult to answer questions, I don't intend to make them so difficult, honest, they just always seem to end up that way!

All routes where HST operated had such speed limits 

Edinburgh - Glasgow Queen Street 

Edinburgh - Kirkcaldy - Aberdeen 

Edinburgh - Stirling - Inverness 

 

All the HST speed limits between Haymarket and Glasgow Queen Street were removed about 1993, replaced by the MU type 

These sections have since been revised when Class 170 came into operation, and the 100mph (or appropriate higher) speed limit was reinstated as standard (2007) 

Examples :

The section through Edinburgh Park, 100mph 

Winchburgh Tunnel, 80mph => HST 90mph (now posted as MU 80mph), with 100mph to the west of this section 

The only restriction between Polmont and Bishpbriggs is Falkirk Tunnel 

Edited February 14, 2018 by mjkerr

[hexagon789]

Thank you, that's very helpful. This was the picture which prompted my question, I hope it's alright to link to it: https://www.flickr.com/photos/95960212@N08/23138089752/

[hexagon789]

Actually, having looked at the photo again the 47/7-hauled train appears to have a somewhat unusual formation. Instead of the standard (?) 47/7-4 Mk3a TSO-Mk3a FO-Mk2f DBSO of the blue/grey period, am I right in thinking this set is formed 47/7-2 Mk3a TSO-Mk2 (air-con) First of some variety (possibly the disc-braked Mk2f FO?)-Mk3a FO-then presumably a Mk2f DBSO, though the last vehicle is obscured by the signal post.