Churminster & Stowe Magna, Southern Railway

[Nick C]

2 minutes ago, simonmcp said:

Looking at the photo I would think the typeface is Gill Sans, definitely for the numbers and possibly for the letters as well. If it was sign written, then the sign writer may have altered the letter forms to fit the available space (condensed in modern speak). I often reduced the width of letters in some words to get a whole word to fit into a column width when I was producing magazines or books, not normally noticed by the readers. I also hate hyphenated words, I was taught to never hyphenate a name or proper noun!

I don't believe the Southern ever used Gill Sans, I think that only came in after nationalisation. It's most likely normal sunshine lettering, but adjusted a bit by whoever painted it...

[45655]

11 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I don't believe the Southern ever used Gill Sans, I think that only came in after nationalisation. It's most likely normal sunshine lettering, but adjusted a bit by whoever painted it...

I'd agree that the Southern never used Gill Sans on rolling stock or enamel signage*, although it was certainly used in printed materials. (Gill Sans was originally designed in the 1920s for the Monotype Corporation.)  The 18" x 6" dished enamel doorplates introduced after WW2 used something that was fairly close but still definitely wasn't Gill Sans, as opposed to the later BR versions which used the genuine article.

 

I think we're on a hiding to nothing if we try to identify the SR's house lettering styles with a particular printer's typeface.  They appear to have been hand drawn and I suggest that they were  basically derived from signwriting practice.

 

Returning to the loco in question, the "Southern" title is clearly a variant of "Sunshine" and the number looks like a simple version of the contemporary style used for buffer beam numbers.  Both were probably hand painted to get them to fit the available space.

 

Keith

Alton.

 

* I have seen a "target" (Birkbeck I think) with Gill Sans lettering but this is wholly exceptional and my guess is that it was a very early post-Nationalisation lash-up.

[Michael Edge]

They were probably hand painted but 3mm transfers might be OK, I think they are still available but I've got some somewhere.

[railtec-models]

1 hour ago, Nick C said:

Looking at that photo, I reckon the 'Southern' is probably hand painted, most likely because any transfers they had wouldn't have fitted! Might be worth getting in touch with Railtec and seeing if he can help?

 

Another option might be to see if anyone does 3mm scale transfers, which would obviously be that bit smaller...

 

The Railtec 3mm catalog just has a mere 2300 items in it 😁

 

https://www.railtec-models.com/3mm

...although not anything suitable for the photo of that steam loco at present.

 

And whilst we're on the topic of the less popular scales, here's the TT catalog:

https://www.railtec-models.com/TT

 

@Tony Teague it's difficult (for my northern eye) to determine precisely from the shot of that steam loco, but is it the exact same design as below, or is it a plain yellow shaded green, or something else?

 

 

 

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, railtec-models said:

 

The Railtec 3mm catalog just has a mere 2300 items in it 😁

Perhaps I should have been more specific! 😄

 

1 hour ago, railtec-models said:

@Tony Teague it's difficult (for my northern eye) to determine precisely from the shot of that steam loco, but is it the exact same design as below, or is it a plain yellow shaded green, or something else?

 

 

That's what it should be, but it's hard to tell from the photo! I agree with Keith that the numbers in particular look simplified. 

[Jack P]

It could be that it's the same/similar size numbering that might have been present on the other small tank engines, P/B4, etc?

 

Another option, to really narrow it down, would be to find a GA of Ironside, figure out the height of the cab side, then use the picture to figure out the approx. height of the letter/numbers.

[Tony Wright]

On 06/11/2022 at 09:09, Tony Teague said:

Decided to give the images a rest yesterday afternoon and get out into the railway room. Given that nothing has been switched on or moved for around 4 months, it was reassuring that most of it still worked, although some of the locos on heavier trains did seem to struggle and look a bit arthritic!

 

I would have liked to do a bit of actual modelling but I had to start by clearing up, plus I wanted to run some trains. In the process of tidying I came across this new addition to stock that arrived some time in July but was never reported here:

 

 

No.629 is an Adams, ex-LSWR A12 'Jubilee' 0-4-2 from OO Works which currently looks a bit shiny and lacks a crew, headcode discs and real coal, but is otherwise to their recent standard, however, I always hae a problem with locos from this source as they are wired to the 'US standard' which means the loco is live on one side and the tender on the other.

 

There is nothing wrong with this in principal, but the way my fiddle yards work is that they are powered by a separate controller and semi-automated via IRDOT's; the OO Works locos always stall at the interface between the two until I add pickups to the opposite (currently unconnected) side of the loco. I will get around to this but it is sort of irritating in what is not a cheap loco to acquire.

 

So on moving the loco from ist box directly to the 'cripple drawer' I also came across it's twin which arrived back in February, but again, was not reported here:

 

 

No.598 is another A12 from the same source and therefore awaiting the same treatment, plus that handrail needs dulling down a bit!. I can't decide whether this loco is best suited by the wartime black or the pre-war lined olive livery but they are quite a handsome pair despite the relatively uncommon wheel configuration:

 

 

As you can see, I added crew (plus removed the surplus front coupling) but everything else must wait.

 

I have two other A12's, both built for me by Chris Phillips from Nu-Cast kits, No.597 in wartime black:

 

 

...and No.614 in lined olive:

 

 

The Nu-Cast kit has got to be all of 50 years old, but I am not sure that the OO Works model has moved things forward very significantly - other than it is ready to run.

 

Tony

 

 

Good evening Tony,

 

Glad to hear that the mojo's back. All the very best.

 

Regarding 'cripples', bring any over the next time you visit; it'll be my pleasure to investigate.

 

Gill Sans on SR locos? I don't really know, other than in BR days, the Southern Region never used the correct font '6' and '9' on any of their steam locos' front numberplates.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Teague]

Many thanks to all of those who responded to my question, and for all of the suggestions.

 

I tend towards the view expressed by others that the lettering / numbering on this unique (for SR) loco were hand painted and customised to fit what is an unusually small space, however I realised, particularly after the comments by @Nick C & @45655, that I had been so convinced that this was a Maunsell based livery that I had overlooked the possibility that it might be based around 'sunshine' lettering.

 

Having re-looked at this possibilty I feel it is more likely, and since the word 'Southern' in Bulleid era lettering (from an HMRS sheet) will in fact fit into the available space plus my intention is to weather the loco fairly heavily, I feel that I shall go ahead on this basis.

 

The model is full of compromises - the most noticeable being that the very prominent steam pipe running along the upper right hand side was not represented at all, and so I am currently attempting to fabricate something suitable, after which I will letter it and show the result on here.

 

Once again, thanks to all for your help.

 

Tony

[Tony Teague]

6 hours ago, railtec-models said:

 

The Railtec 3mm catalog just has a mere 2300 items in it 😁

 

https://www.railtec-models.com/3mm

...although not anything suitable for the photo of that steam loco at present.

 

And whilst we're on the topic of the less popular scales, here's the TT catalog:

https://www.railtec-models.com/TT

 

@Tony Teague it's difficult (for my northern eye) to determine precisely from the shot of that steam loco, but is it the exact same design as below, or is it a plain yellow shaded green, or something else?

 

 

 

 

It is not much clearer at this end, but I am now tending towards the 'Sunshine' lettering.

 

Thanks for the links; I shall endeavour to say hello at Warley.

 

Tony

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Tony,

 

Glad to hear that the mojo's back. All the very best.

 

Regarding 'cripples', bring any over the next time you visit; it'll be my pleasure to investigate.

 

Gill Sans on SR locos? I don't really know, other than in BR days, the Southern Region never used the correct font '6' and '9' on any of their steam locos' front numberplates.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Many thanks Tony; I hope that you and Mo are both well.

 

I shall certainly take you up as usual, on your kind offer!

 

Tony

[Nick C]

12 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

...Maunsell based livery...

I found quite a few photos of it in Maunsell livery - with huge numbers that take up most of the side-sheet. That's the only photo I can find of it in Bulleid livery though.

[Tony Teague]

2 hours ago, Nick C said:

I found quite a few photos of it in Maunsell livery - with huge numbers that take up most of the side-sheet. That's the only photo I can find of it in Bulleid livery though.

 

Thanks - very helpful.

I think that confirms my decision to proceed as above.

Tony

[Tony Teague]

A brief post to report that I have finally replaced all of the lost images that I posted on my thread; although at 58 pages my thread is a lot shorter than many others, only the last two pages cover the period since the images were lost, and some of my posts contained 9 or 10 images, so one can only begin to imagine the total loss across all RMWeb threads.

 

Almost no images prior to the loss had been restored by the system - perhaps 50 or 60 of over 1,000, so I tend to think that this was just 'froth' offered by the suppliers in the face of what was quite a disgraceful loss of service.

 

One saving grace has been that I upgraded my internet connection one year ago and whereas BT gave me on average 4Mps in rural Northamptonshire, I now get 200Mps from a Gigaclear fibre to the house connection - lord knows how long it would have taken me if I was still with BT!

 

There have been a couple of big pluses in working through the thread from the start - firstly it has re-assured me as to just how much progress has been made since I started the thread six years ago, and secondly it has reminded me of the very considerable contribution made to my thread (and many others) by the late Mick Bonwick - both through his humour and considerable modelling skills; he is sorely missed and of course the images that he posted will never be replaced.

 

Finally, I learned that year in, year out I have suffered from 'absentee mojo syndrome' (ABS), and so far at least it has always returned - so I really shouldn't be alarmed if I suffer a further occurrence.

 

Next posts will definately be about modelling progress!

 

Tony

[Tony Teague]

I had good intentions to visit Warley today but in the end, and wrongly or rightly, I thought my time was better spent doing some modelling!

 

I have been running some trains over the last few days and this has mostly been successful, excepting a few derailments which seemed mainly to be caused by bogies on longer carriages & wagons not swinging properly on curves - perhaps because almost no trains have been run for months? Something I intend to rectify.

 

Anyway I said that this post would be about modelling, so here goes.

 

Some months ago when my friend Mike was here to complete the painting of backscenes - all finished now but some remain to be installled - I observed that I thought that the large factory building behind the terraced houses in Stowe Magna was a bit bright / too orange, and needed toning down a bit.

 

 

This was likely to be tricky as the backscene here was painted on cards and then stuck to the wall - 'no more nails' meant that it was unlikely to be removable without re-plastering the wall! It is also in a very inaccessible place requiring reaching right across the baseboard at a position where the ceiling slopes down - so not ideal.

 

Mike was willing, however, to have a go, but it very quickly became aparent that the water based acrylic paints were lifting the top skin off of the scenic board and that any idea of 'weathering' or toning down the bulding was simply not going to work; we were left with a bit of a mess and spent some time considering how this might be rectified.

 

 

Note that I had already had to loosen the buildings in front of the backscene in order to get the cards onto the walls - which is why some of them look a bit 'askew' here.

Mike remained willing to have another attempt, but during a subsequent visit by Giles, he suggested that it would be easier, and probably look better, if I were to make a low profile replacement for the building and fix it over the painted version - this would also add depth and texture, although it would require that the buildings in front were physically moved forward by several mm.

 

Things remained like this over the past few months, however, the need to get this area finished is heightened by the fact that it would be foolish for me to install Steve Hewitt's stunning semaphore signals in front of this area - which is exactly where they need to be - until the area to the rear was finished.

 

 

So today I carefully measured the factory building and finally got to cut out the shape of it's replacement in foam board; I then covered it with brick textured plasticard (Slaters) which I have used to good effect elsewhere:

 

 

After this initial progress I have started to cut out openings for 3 separate doors and an oblong ground floor window but I also need to source some circular window frames if I am to mirror the original design. I also intend to add coping stones to the tope of the walls, and downpipes. before painting.

 

Progress at last!

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Tony Teague

[Tony Teague]

My order from York Modelmaking (no connection) for some laser cut circular windows and surrounds arrived very quickly despite postal delays, enabling me to make further progress with the "Stowe Manufacturing" building; I think they look right:

 

 

After marking out I cut into the brick covering and right through the foamboard underneath so that the windows could be inset into the walls:

 

 

With hindsight it would have been easier to mark out on the brick card before sticking it to the foamboard and then cutting through that from the front - but I haven't built a structure for ages and so I didn't think about that until it was done!

 

 

I soon had the windows test mounted and also started on the wall cappings.

 

 

Windows, wall capping, downpipes & roller shutter doors now in place - the right hand one modelled partly open; so far, so good!

 

Things then went downhill when I decided to go ahead and add an office window & staff doorway, and at this late stage I screwed up the dimensions - but if you think I was going to start again, you must be joking! With expedient use of plastic filler I repaired the wall but not without making a bit of a mess:

 

 

Whilst I was able to clean up a lot of this once the filler was dry, and more of it will disappear under layers of paint, I think the back story will have to be that the window and door were not part of the original building and when Jerry the builder put them in, he made a bit of a horlicks of the wall!

 

 

Anyway, after cleaning up I applied the first on many layers of paint; I will use the same paint scheme for this as I applied to The Brewery Tap public house that I built 4 years ago; it derives from Geoff Taylors excellent book on making scale buildings and seems to give an appropriate finish:

 

 

Next job will be to make a better clearance of the site where this building is to fit - alongside adding multiple layers of paint.

 

Tony

[Tony Teague]

Quick update - have now pointed every brick individually (not):

 

 

The problem at this stage is that each layer of paint has to dry thoroughly (24hr min) before one can apply the next, however, I have actually also given the lintels, coping stones and downpipes a first coat (not shown here).

 

Tony

[Dragonboy]

I have a warehouse I hand built  in N some years ago and I started hand painting individual bricks using about 4 different colours. I lasted 5 minutes doing that and quickly changed to colouring small areas at a time.

 

Even so it took me several evenings to complete and it was only half a building as it’s semi low relief. 

[Tony Teague]

Finally got this building 'finished'.

I may have gone a bit over the top with the green slime on he wall originating from a leaky downpipe but since about 2/3 of the building sits behind rows of terraced houses I think I'll live with it:

 

 

Next job is to 'plant' it which requires just a little more site clearance because, as mentioned previously, everything in front of it will have to move forward by about 4mm, however, the good news is that once that is done and those buildings in front of it are re-instated, it clears the way for the start of the installation of Steve Hewitt's magnificent semaphore signals which have been sitting in their transport frames for at least a year!

Tony

[Tony Teague]

It must be Christmas, because I am delighted to confirm the arrival of an exquisite new loco courtesy of @Michael Edge, in the shape of SR / LSWR / Drummond C14 No.3744!

 

 

This will not come as a surprise to followers of Mike's workbench thread, but I can certainly say that it has been worth the wait; this is from a test etch and I understand that a kit for the loco will be introduced to the Judith Edge range next year.

 

 

The loco really is tiny, measuring just about 65mm long and the detail is superb; it now just needs crew, coal and some weathering. Here it is posed along side an almost as diminutive P class (by Hattons).

 

 

The really good news is that this is one from my 'missing list', upon which I have not reported for over 18 months, and bearing in mind we are approaching the year end, I will give an update on this shortly.

 

 

Tony

 

 

[Michael Edge]

Looks good on your layout, thanks for posting the photos.

[Tony Teague]

A Happy Christmas to all who follow this thread!🎅

 

I managed to clear the site for the new low profile factory building but it was necessary to be a bit more brutal with the existing terraced houses than I had hoped; I may have to replace one which was very firmly stuck down to the baseboard, nevertheless the new building is now installed:

 

 

Next job will be to repair the devastation, move the terraces forwards by about 4mm and repair or replace them as required; I had never regarded this area as finished - you can see, for example, that the centre and left terraces lacked chimney pots - but overall I feel that the new building adds depth.

 

Unfortunately I have managed to come down with a streaming cold, so all Christmas arrangements are on hold and it may be a couple of days before I feel like getting on with this.

 

Tony

[KNP]

Merry Christmas and hope your cold gets better.

[Nick C]

Merry Christmas Tony

[AdeMoore]

As a backbench follower of your excellent thread a belated Merry Christmas!

Perhaps I should say a Happy and more healthy New Year.

Looking forward to the update and the missing loco list!

Cheers

Ade

[Tony Teague]

Time to bite the bullet and start the Annual Review for 2022 - it will be short, as witnessed by the whole year being covred in less than 2 pages of RMWeb......

 

First off, locomotives and the missing list where my aims for the year seemed modest at the time, however, none came close to being achieved.

 

There were just 2 RTR stock additions in the shape of a pair of A12 Jubilee's from OO Works, but having only reported on these very recently I shall not repeat the images, and of course they did not affect the 'missing list'; no, the only saving grace here was Mike Edge's very recent delivery of the diminutive C14 loco - seen here with some other tiny friends (please excuse poor image):

 

 

 

The lack of acquisitions from the major RTR manufacturers is as striking as my own lack of progress, however, there were just no new offerings of Southern interest delivered in the period. This must be the smallest increase in loco fleet size in any year since I started railway modelling!

I am aware of the completion of two kit builds of very long gestation but postal issues mean that these will now be delivered in 2023, and in any event they do not affect the "Missing List" which now comprises just 8 types and stands as follows:

 

(The number in brackets represents the total number of each class originally built)
 
LB&SCR Billinton E5X  (4) - I have no excuses and this is now back on my workbench; it uses a 3D printed body and SEF E5 chassis, each of which  that has been in stock for more than

                                                  three and a half years! (a disgrace!)..

LB&SCR Marsh C3        (8) - Arun Sharma's 'kit of parts' for the loco and related B2X tender, are both with the intended builder & awaiting a slot in his work queue.

LB&SCR Marsh D3X     (1) - the solution proposed is via a 3D printed body, and use of the chassis from a Chivers D3 kit (in stock), however, design work on the body

                                                 has yet to start so this one is not going to be a quick win.

LB&SCR Billinton B4X (12) - A commission for this to be built from existing etches has been agreed, and so this one awaits its turn on the builder's list.

SECR Wainwright F1     (9) - Mike Edge's offer to build an ancient Jidenco kit has been accepted, although this will have to wait its turn in his workbook.

SECR Wainwright B1    (16) - SER Kits have had designs and drawings in hand for a 7mm kit for several years; they have indicated they are prepared to scale down to produce 4mm etches but

                                                 I am not aware of any recent progress; I was also made aware of a proposal to produce 3D printed models of this (and of the F1) but I have heard nothing further
LSWR Drummond S11 (10) - Andy Sparks has offered to assist with the build of what is a set of L12 body parts (S11 = L12 with smaller wheels or T9 with large boiler & smaller wheels); I have

                                                   yet  to acquire the correct driving wheels which are now available from Markits; the plan is to use an adapted SE Finecast T9 chassis.

SR Maunsell I1X       (18) - Development of a 3D printed body was halted by the pandemic but has since re-started; the intention remains to combine this with Alan Gibson milled chassis

                                                frames which are in stock

 

So we are now down to 8, which I classify as follows:

   'certain solution / within forseeable future' = 5: E5X, C3, B4X, F1, S11

   'some issues remain to be solved' = 2: D3X, I1X

   'very vague / need firming up' = 1: B1

 

The key question is, will I live long enough?

 

Tony