Hornby announce Class 800 IEP

[SteveC32]

At last, someone coolly and calmly investigating the issue and sorting the matter! Thank you Chris for sharing your findings. Let's be honest it was most likely to be something as simple as the screws done up too tightly and not a design fault. 

 

Sure, it shouldn't happen, but then neither should water have poured out of the air-con on the day the real ones entered service. Because it is an assembly issue, it might be difficult for Hornby to trace. If two people assembled the couplings, and all of the batch assembled by the one who over tightened the screws happened to be on the pallets Hornby distributed first, then all those still in the warehouse, and available for immediate testing, could be fine. I'm guessing here, but it could be the case. I'm not defending Hornby, and I do understand its frustrating for those with models which don't perform as expected, but a it more patience would be in order. 

 

Meanwhile, my model, which I admit is likely to forever remain in a showcase, is yet to arrive, and given today's Red Weather Warning I don't expect to see it this week.

I don’t think there’s any impatience been expressed on this thread (and certainly not by me) but we’ve all expressed frustration that such an expensive model has poor build quality and what appears to be no quality control.

[keybuk]

I’ve only fitted non sound chips (as Bif hasn’t done a Loksound sound yet ) and the standard chip fits in the ‘tray’. Looks like you’ve found the next issue with this ‘sound ready’ model!

 

 

I assume you put the non-sound chip where the speaker is supposed to go?

 

I can't tell what they were thinking here (aside from "…"), for comparison here's an (unsheathed) Hornby TTS decoder sitting on that PCB

 

[DJMR]

I don’t think there’s any impatience been expressed on this thread (and certainly not by me) but we’ve all expressed frustration that such an expensive model has poor build quality and what appears to be no quality control.

 

I second that!

[SteveC32]

I assume you put the non-sound chip where the speaker is supposed to go?

 

I can't tell what they were thinking here (aside from "…"), for comparison here's an (unsheathed) Hornby TTS decoder sitting on that PCB

 

Yep I put it where the speaker should go.

[JSpencer]

At last, someone coolly and calmly investigating the issue and sorting the matter! Thank you Chris for sharing your findings. Let's be honest it was most likely to be something as simple as the screws done up too tightly and not a design fault. 

 

Sure, it shouldn't happen, but then neither should water have poured out of the air-con on the day the real ones entered service. Because it is an assembly issue, it might be difficult for Hornby to trace. If two people assembled the couplings, and all of the batch assembled by the one who over tightened the screws happened to be on the pallets Hornby distributed first, then all those still in the warehouse, and available for immediate testing, could be fine. I'm guessing here, but it could be the case. I'm not defending Hornby, and I do understand its frustrating for those with models which don't perform as expected, but a it more patience would be in order. 

 

Meanwhile, my model, which I admit is likely to forever remain in a showcase, is yet to arrive, and given today's Red Weather Warning I don't expect to see it this week.

 

The engineering prototype was almost certainly screwed together by hand with a screw driver. On an assembly line, I suspect they use an electrical screwdriver causing them to be over tightened.

 

A few years back, when I got a Schools, there were 2 metal brackets screwed to the bottom of the chassis that prevented the loco moving in the foam box. These were so tight that I nearly wrote off the running plate while trying to remove them.

Edited March 2, 2018 by JSpencer

[Revolution Mike B]

Poor old Hornby - Dammed if they do, Damned if they don't!

 

I don't think it's unreasonable for a £400 model to work properly, however in the real world, these trains don't traverse Radius 3 corners, and Network Rail do their best to make sure that the mainlines are a smooth as possible. Unless you have hundreds of feet of space, and are able to replicate the real thing, it's asking a lot of this model to perform well without it looking like a toy due to compromises. Having said that, looking at the pictures of the decoder fitting.....that's not great at all!

 

It's a shame that there's been issues because they've done a fantastic job of making it look good.....

[159220]

If I may say three things.

 

1. my initial post about the pantograph has now been addressed by Hornby and anyone else with broken pantographs can expect a supply of spares from Hornby. 

 

2. 'Frustration'. None here, just disappointment that a brand new model has a few niggles. But sadly this is how production works now as not every one can be inspected for QC. There were niggles with the Dapol 68, but now look, best modern locomotive in the market place! I have taken time to think and consider, and have now sent a well researched and constructive document to Hornby on the riding issues. Though, as Dibber25 has stated, most of the ride is solved by unscrewing the coupling bar a little, certainly helped but not 100% solved due to the bar to point interaction. In addition, one out of my three centre coaches has the anchor point to the bogie suspension bar 'shaped' in the factory. Thus no need to sand off the top of the bar, just a blade to the anchor point. See attached. Of course, at a new £400 (at RRP) model, I am not at all enthusiastic about taking a blade to it and thus I shall be returning mine, in the certainty Hornby shall learn and grow from this understandable mistake of pushing out a new product as quickly as possible. To be fair, I shall not miss 800004 as though it is a beautiful looking model, 004 is still not in this  GWR livery, it is in DfT etc branded GWR livery and still very much part of the Hitachi Test Train fleet. The active Agility Trains West fleet, hired to GWR daily are: 005/006/008-018/020-026/028-031. Of course, also in full GWR Green are: 027/032-035. But these are still property of Hitachi and not yet delivered to Agility Trains West - well okay okay 033 is now Agility Trains West property, running its 1500 mile fault free. Should be in passenger service today or Monday. Additionally, either 027/032 or 034 shall be delivered today to Agility West. The point being, the livery on 800004 is not prototypical, thus I do not mind it going back. 

 

 

3. Sorry again Dibber25, it has been pointed the AT-300 coach is much longer than the Mk3. Yes, true, but please review the original specification for the IEP on the DfT site. The train design under the IEP must fit into the same dynamics/characteristics as the Mk3. I attach the following, showing the bogies/wheels are basically in the same position on the models, as much as they are on the real prototypes. (gosh also shows up how crude the 1997 Mk3 tooling is). You shall find on the prototype the AT-300 doors are roughly at the same point as a Mk3 door. The additional 3m is found in 1.5 m at each end. An exceptionally clever design. Impressed the models demonstrate this too! 

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by 159220

[dibber25]

If I may say three things.

 

1. my initial post about the pantograph has now been addressed by Hornby and anyone else with broken pantographs can expect a supply of spares from Hornby. 

 

2. 'Frustration'. None here, just disappointment that a brand new model has a few niggles. But sadly this is how production works now as not every one can be inspected for QC. There were niggles with the Dapol 68, but now look, best modern locomotive in the market place! I have taken time to think and consider, and have now sent a well researched and constructive document to Hornby on the riding issues. Though, as Dibber25 has stated, most of the ride is solved by unscrewing the coupling bar a little, certainly helped but not 100% solved due to the bar to point interaction. In addition, one out of my three centre coaches has the anchor point to the bogie suspension bar 'shaped' in the factory. Thus no need to sand off the top of the bar, just a blade to the anchor point. See attached. Of course, at a new £400 (at RRP) model, I am not at all enthusiastic about taking a blade to it and thus I shall be returning mine, in the certainty Hornby shall learn and grow from this understandable mistake of pushing out a new product as quickly as possible. To be fair, I shall not miss 800004 as though it is a beautiful looking model, 004 is still not in this  GWR livery, it is in DfT etc branded GWR livery and still very much part of the Hitachi Test Train fleet. The active Agility Trains West fleet, hired to GWR daily are: 005/006/008-018/020-026/028-031. Of course, also in full GWR Green are: 027/032-035. But these are still property of Hitachi and not yet delivered to Agility Trains West - well okay okay 033 is now Agility Trains West property, running its 1500 mile fault free. Should be in passenger service today or Monday. Additionally, either 027/032 or 034 shall be delivered today to Agility West. The point being, the livery on 800004 is not prototypical, thus I do not mind it going back. 

 

IMG_4978.jpg

 

3. Sorry again Dibber25, it has been pointed the AT-300 coach is much longer than the Mk3. Yes, true, but please review the original specification for the IEP on the DfT site. The train design under the IEP must fit into the same dynamics/characteristics as the Mk3. I attach the following, showing the bogies/wheels are basically in the same position on the models, as much as they are on the real prototypes. (gosh also shows up how crude the 1997 Mk3 tooling is). You shall find on the prototype the AT-300 doors are roughly at the same point as a Mk3 door. The additional 3m is found in 1.5 m at each end. An exceptionally clever design. Impressed the models demonstrate this too! 

 

IMG_8965.JPG

 

I don't need to review the spec. It doesn't relate to the model. The model is substantially longer than the MK.3 - where it matters - the end throw and its consequences for the bar coupler. The position of the wheels is not an issue. It is the distance between the bogie centres of adjacent coaches and the limited vertical movement of the couplings which results in a train 5ft 8in long with very little vertical flexibility, that is the issue. The coupling arrangement might well work much better on Mk3 vehicles because they are shorter, and whilst it may be clever design on the real thing, it inevitably has an adverse effect when you are trying to make a scale model negotiate track geometry for which the real thing was not designed. My comments stand. (CJL)

[Revolution Mike B]

Agree with Dibber25 on this one - small curves (even 4ft) + longer over hang = disaster, due to the coach ends moving further away from each other as they traverse the corner.

 

I’ve not seen the coupling arrangement close up so I can’t comment on it’s design. Obviously, Hornby thought they’d got this right so therefore released the model - after all, there’s only a certain amount of R&D before you have to say ‘right, let’s get the product out’

[Darius43]

Obviously, Hornby thought they’d got this right so therefore released the model - after all, there’s only a certain amount of R&D before you have to say ‘right, let’s get the product out’

Alas, for those of us that have bought this model train, the amount of R&D required from Hornby was more than that.

 

Darius

[mski]

Got two sets last week and had all the problems with mine as mentioned here derailments etc. Have cured the problems with the 3 coaches bogies catching around the bends which are quite decent, clicking bodies etc.

Have slackened the screws on the coupling drawbar , not too much just enough so they dont twist and put power lube on the v shape groove and also the large plastic eye under the screw and made sure they dont jam at all by waggling and retighten ar slackened screw slightly in very small increments reqd.

Result no more bogies fouling on coaches and derailing.

But found and interesting thing abought the bogies, pull of the rear dummy bogie and put it on a coach, non pickup bogie , and found impossible to foul the coach body but the coupling is the real problem .

[mski]

As for sound chip fitting had mine chipped by olivias trains they put the speaker in the tray and the chip inside the body behind the grey door uprights and used a small half round file to remove the plastic on the pcb edge in the tray  adjacent to the chip socket just enough allow the wires through to the seating area.

[SteveC32]

Got two sets last week and had all the problems with mine as mentioned here derailments etc. Have cured the problems with the 3 coaches bogies catching around the bends which are quite decent, clicking bodies etc.

Have slackened the screws on the coupling drawbar , not too much just enough so they dont twist and put power lube on the v shape groove and also the large plastic eye under the screw and made sure they dont jam at all by waggling and retighten ar slackened screw slightly in very small increments reqd.

Result no more bogies fouling on coaches and derailing.

But found and interesting thing abought the bogies, pull of the rear dummy bogie and put it on a coach, non pickup bogie , and found impossible to foul the coach body but the coupling is the real problem .

I think you’ve had the stiff coupling and ‘whipping’ effect they have which destabilises the carriages, I’ve seen this on mine but I’ve also got the bogies fouling the bodies as well. I’m going to wait and see what action my e-mail to Lyndon Davies prompts to the issues. While I’ve been tempted to get stuck in and fix the issues I don’t see why I should on what should be a perfect out of the box product, and it’s got a 12 month warranty as well

 

As the model is supposed to be a ‘sound ready’ model I think someone in the design team made a basic design error - not checking the dimensions of the ‘industry standard’ sound chip - I wouldn’t want to be in his/her shoes when the ‘lessons learned’ route cause analysis is conducted as I’m sure Hornby never intended modellers to have to modify the model to fit sound.

[mski]

Remove the rear bogie from your dummy car will pull off with medium strength and do same with a coach bogie make sure its not the pick up bogie which has the copper pick ups underneath and fit the dummy bogie to the coach medium pressure and you will find it is impossible to snag it on the body,going to get some of these dummy bogies from Hornby , has anybody though about getting the spares for these trains from Hornby.

[keybuk]

As for sound chip fitting had mine chipped by olivias trains they put the speaker in the tray and the chip inside the body behind the grey door uprights and used a small half round file to remove the plastic on the pcb edge in the tray  adjacent to the chip socket just enough allow the wires through to the seating area.

 

 

This is what I've been thinking I'd need to do too

 

Do you have a picture of their work?

[dibber25]

Remove the rear bogie from your dummy car will pull off with medium strength and do same with a coach bogie make sure its not the pick up bogie which has the copper pick ups underneath and fit the dummy bogie to the coach medium pressure and you will find it is impossible to snag it on the body,going to get some of these dummy bogies from Hornby , has anybody though about getting the spares for these trains from Hornby.

 

As far as I can see, all the bogies are the same. The simple action of removing the bogie and refitting it may have freed the movement sufficiently to solve the problem. (CJL)

[charliepetty]

This is what I've been thinking I'd need to do too

 

Do you have a picture of their work?

It will involve 10Kg of Black Tak.    Charlie

[keybuk]

It will involve 10Kg of Black Tak.    Charlie

 

 

That sounds like the last thing I ordered from Olivia's - I think there was supposed to be a model in there too, but mostly what I got was Black Tak

[robf]

It will involve 10Kg of Black Tak.    Charlie

Are you (Legoman) planning on producing a class 800 sound chip?

[mski]

The bogie on the dummy car is different if you  look carefully on the service sheet or compare bogies the moulding is different on top, when I fit to my coach the bogie misses the body step by 2mm and is impossible to clash with the body, just trying to help here.

[mski]

Been in touch with Hornby and they say they will supply these bogies free of charge when parts are available if their tech boys think it will solve part of the problem, emailling it to Hornby tech services later today.

[Legend]

Been in touch with Hornby and they say they will supply these bogies free of charge when parts are available if their tech boys think it will solve part of the problem, emailling it to Hornby tech services later today.

Sounds like they are investigating problem. Might be a good idea if they put a statement out to reassure people. Especially if its as easy as slackening off some screws

Edited March 5, 2018 by Legend

[mski]

unable to post photos at the moment but not sure why

[No Decorum]

I’m very grateful to dibber25 for his careful investigation into this machine. My track is laid to a radius of 6', so it is hardly surprising that the bogies have caused no derailments. However, an extended Airfix girder bridge causes it to throw itself off the track. The bridge only raises the track a few millimetres and is approached by a short ramp, which gives nothing else any trouble. That includes Hornby’s own Pendolino and Javelin, which seem to have similar coupling arrangements. The whole model was returned to its box in disgrace whilst I pondered what to do. Returning a box this size, especially as it came with other stuff, so that I haven’t a suitably sized outer box would be bothersome. No wonder Hornby can come out with the classic line, “We’ve had very few returns.”

 

Anyhow, I slackened the screws holding the couplings by one complete turn and now it goes over the bridge and stays on the track, even when going flat out. In passing, I agree with the comments that all the screws are very tight; the worst ones being those holding the lavatory tanks which have to be removed to reach the coupling screw. My usual jewellers’ crosshead screwdriver didn’t fit well but a different type got a better grip.

 

Another problem I have had is flickering lights in the power car. I removed the baseplate of the leading bogie and tweaked the pickups to stay in contact with the backs of the wheels. That seemed to solve that problem too. I did wonder in the course of doing this if there is any white grease left in China.

 

The wheels of the power car get dirty very quickly. That might be a result of the intermittent contact caused by the pickups. It remains to be seen.

 

Something else I am wondering. There is no switch I can see to turn off the cab lights, which are directional – is there wiring to enable a decoder to switch them off?

[martin_l_jones]

Anybody had any feedback from their supplier or Hornby?

Mine derails, the bogie appears to lock and jumps as it tries to straighten out.

Edited March 5, 2018 by martin_l_jones