Realistic Speeds, starting and stopping etc.,

[Chris M]

My club is building a new N gauge layout which is over 20 feet long. This means that an unfitted freight running at a reasonable 25 mph would need to take about two minutes from first appearance of the loco to brake van disappearing through the scenic part of the layout. Would it be great to see a good length freight train traversing the countryside at a correct speed or would it be boring and need to run faster? I really don't know and I expect there will be differing views.

[tender]

Considering many layouts have some form of scale compression, especially in the length, a train running at scale speed could give the impression of running too fast, IMO.

[Chris M]

Acceleration is far harder to get right than flat speed. I reckon a modern DMU such as a class 170 will take about a minute to accelerate up to 60mph. On a model that would be difficult to achieve as most layouts will not be long enough. I think watching acceleration at that rate it would seem like an eternity but it shows what it should be like. 

[Orange Cat]

There's also the thought that, on layouts representing earlier periods, a lot of the shunting moves made by locos would, in reality, have been done at the speed the shunting horse could pull the wagon(s). The train loco would have lifted the outgoing wagons, left the incoming ones and the goods yard shunter, with his horse, would have arranged them as required at a far more leisurely pace.

[250BOB]

I model 00, and have done some scale speed checks on my layout, and on the straights I never exceed speeds above 40mph......and although I have a big 64foot in length roundy layout, that speed is way too fast for the curves.  But it has to be a compromise as I am not going to slow and speed up the train for every bend and straight.  My freights look good at a scale 10/12 mph.

This is how I like to run trains......but I know it wont suit everyone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLTKaNQFSSQ&t=81s

Even I have pals who want to see the expresses running on my layout at a scale 80mph.

[tender]

Acceleration is far harder to get right than flat speed. I reckon a modern DMU such as a class 170 will take about a minute to accelerate up to 60mph. On a model that would be difficult to achieve as most layouts will not be long enough. I think watching acceleration at that rate it would seem like an eternity but it shows what it should be like.

 

About 30ft if my recollection of physics is correct. That's assuming you don't scale the time, that's a subject in itself.

[250BOB]

Acceleration is far harder to get right than flat speed. I reckon a modern DMU such as a class 170 will take about a minute to accelerate up to 60mph. On a model that would be difficult to achieve as most layouts will not be long enough. I think watching acceleration at that rate it would seem like an eternity but it shows what it should be like. 

It might seem like an eternity to some........but it would look right....but there is always a compromise too.

[Phil Bullock]

That's great running Bob - thanks for sharing...

 

Now ...about those tail lights....!

 

Phil

[bike2steam]

50mph would be fast, but ok if the platform is long enough..........but 4 mins seems very quick to do all you say, especially if you are talking steam engines.

4 minutes ?, that's twice as long as steam to electric (or reverse) at Rickmansworth.

[stovepipe]

Acceleration is far harder to get right than flat speed. I reckon a modern DMU such as a class 170 will take about a minute to accelerate up to 60mph. On a model that would be difficult to achieve as most layouts will not be long enough. I think watching acceleration at that rate it would seem like an eternity but it shows what it should be like. 

 

Typical in-service acceleration times to 60 mph for modern dmus is around 80 - 100 seconds, but I guess 0 - 30 mph might be more like 30 seconds.

 

Considering many layouts have some form of scale compression, especially in the length, a train running at scale speed could give the impression of running too fast, IMO.

 

To my mind this increases the acceleration to be used. If a bridge (used as a scenic break) exists closer to the station than in reality, shouldn't the (model) train have reached the speed expected in reality by the bridge?

[250BOB]

That's great running Bob - thanks for sharing...

 

Now ...about those tail lights....!

 

Phil

 

I know Phil......I have some attention to detail to attend to......work in progress is my excuse.

But we are very in tune ref speeds etc.,

Bob

[Phil Bullock]

Absolutely Bob - and theres always something isn't there.

 

And although we have tails lamps there are not enough on our guards vans - no side lamps!

 

Phil

[LNER4479]

Four minutes was a typical loco change timing at a station. The stops at Grantham were so timed. The trick was to exercise the stop briskly so that the couplings remained compressed as the train came to stand. That way, there was no need to reverse the loco to release the couplings. A quick hop down by the fireman to uncouple the brake pipe (only one on vacuum), pull the buckeye chain and the train engine would be clear within the first 30 seconds with an alert signalman.

 

I've heard the same story at Salisbury with West of England expresses. Again, 4 mins to change locos - they prided themselves at being able to do it in 2!

[The Stationmaster]

Four minutes was a typical loco change timing at a station. The stops at Grantham were so timed. The trick was to exercise the stop briskly so that the couplings remained compressed as the train came to stand. That way, there was no need to reverse the loco to release the couplings. A quick hop down by the fireman to uncouple the brake pipe (only one on vacuum), pull the buckeye chain and the train engine would be clear within the first 30 seconds with an alert signalman.

 

I've heard the same story at Salisbury with West of England expresses. Again, 4 mins to change locos - they prided themselves at being able to do it in 2!

 

Of course it does take longer when you include a Brake Continuity Test but that's all.  However you do need the right track layout and signalling to do the job smartly - I got somewhat less than happy with the station staff at Westbury taking 'forever'  (in my opinion of the time it took) to change engines on Up passenger trains when a failed loco was being replaced so i set them a challenge to do it in 10 minutes (yes - ten!!).  Once we'd got down to 10 on a regular basis I reduced the target time to do the job but the fastest they ever managed was 7 minutes.

 

Sounds slow but don't forget that had to include two Driver changes, the loco coming off having to pass (somehow) the one to go on, one unsignalled move covered by a handsignal from the 'box, and a Brake Continuity Test so I didn't think we were doing badly.  But in the 'old days' of steam worked branch passenger trains 7 minutes would have been considered a very long time to do a run-round move.

[Kris]

My club is building a new N gauge layout which is over 20 feet long. This means that an unfitted freight running at a reasonable 25 mph would need to take about two minutes from first appearance of the loco to brake van disappearing through the scenic part of the layout. Would it be great to see a good length freight train traversing the countryside at a correct speed or would it be boring and need to run faster? I really don't know and I expect there will be differing views.

 

 20ft is about 1/2 a scale mile, so at 25mph you'd be looking at a little over a minute rather than 2 minutes. Given this I would say that 2 minutes is too slow and would be boring. 

[PhilH]

Surely Youtube is your friend in this....there must be enough video of all kinds of railway scenarios, expresses, goods, shunting etc., to satisfy any need for prototype running information.

[Orange Cat]

My club is building a new N gauge layout which is over 20 feet long. This means that an unfitted freight running at a reasonable 25 mph would need to take about two minutes from first appearance of the loco to brake van disappearing through the scenic part of the layout. Would it be great to see a good length freight train traversing the countryside at a correct speed or would it be boring and need to run faster? I really don't know and I expect there will be differing views.

 

 

I am thinking it would depend to some extent on the nature of the layout and the other trains running. If it is the sort of layout with several continuous circuits with trains running continuously the appeal of the long, slow moving, freight train might soon pall. On the other hand, if the layout is one where the trains work in sequence, then the slow, heavy, freight might well provide an attractive contrast to the faster trains. 

[MiDAS]

There are a good number of layouts out there that within the size restraints run in a prototypical manner, at a speed that looks right even if not to scale, with smooth starts and stops. They are great to watch. I however am finding the more and more annoying current practice of out of the box shiny loco's and stock. I go to an exhibition hoping to be inspired by the modelling of others not the owners cheque book.

I can accept a pacific with 3 coaches I have pictures of same but an unfitted J15 on a three coach train, no it would not happen

Yeah I know I am a grumpy old man and everyone has their own railway. My point is it is an exhibition where we are showing what we can do not what a manufacturer produces, all models can be improved in some way.

[coachmann]

Maybe they're not traditional railway modellers. Maybe they are RTR modelers who fancied doing the exhibition circuit. I know of modellers who buy some of the well detailed RTR locos etc to augment their kit-built models where thye can be altered to suit period and location, but i would be very distrusting of people whose whole 'kit' is straight out of boxes and prototype practice is a very distant cousin.

 

When it comes to quick stops and rapid toy town acceleration, I have seen it happen on layouts some people have much respect for. 

[Vecchio]

Having visited Warley a week or two ago, I was treated to some superb layouts which were operated superbly well too.

But, there were few that were not so well operated......and that's a shame, because they were great looking layouts.

I am not referring to operating to timetables or anything like that....... I am referring to the unrealistic fast speeds used on some layouts, and even worse the fast cornering speed that would create G forces worse than taking off from Cape Canaveral.

Acceleration and Deceleration are another of my pet hates..... freights accelerating to a scale 60mph in a few seconds, similarly, passenger trains decelerating to a standstill over too short a distance.

 

There was a particular layout at Warley, operated by the Shildon Model Group, which was a superb looking layout, but in the time I spent watching, fell into the category I am talking about operationally..... such a pity.

 

It was DC operated, and I always think that lends itself to being operated in such a fashion, whereas DCC can also be operated like that, it can also be prevented by setting CV's accordingly to give very realistic starts, stops and top speeds.

 

I know I'm not alone making these comments, several around ne at the Exbn were saying the same......how do we get the message across to some operators about running more realistically. Maybe a comments sheet by each layout that could be posted in a box for the operators to read later......for both good and bad comments.

 

Bob

 

I totally agree. But also in DC times I made myself a controller which allowed variable, automatic acceleration. Much more fun doing it like that.

Since several years I run DCC only - and for the argument nothing happens when the throttle is opened during shunting - most proper decoders allow to program a shunting mode - which temporarily disables the acceleration and brake curves. I have programmed that on all my locos - always at the same function key. (useful for forgetful old men). Works a treat!

Vecchio

[The Johnster]

The point, IMHO, is to make your trains look as though they are behaving like real trains.  Now, real trains behave in all sort of different ways according to what sort of trains they are and what their drivers are doing to them, but a general rule is that they are heavy, cumbersome, and largely inert when stopped and momentous (!) when moving.  This means that any change in speed, or starting from rest, must be accomplished as smoothly as possible; if you do it smoothly, you can get away with quite a bit in terms of rapid acceleration or decelaration.  Coming to a stand is often in reality accompanied by a squeal of brakes and a jerk, so things are not so critical in that case, but an attempt not to have a brick wall stop from a scale 80mph is still desirable.

 

On exhibition layouts, I think there are 2 fundamental problems, at least with analogue control.  Firstly, many club layouts do not get much use between shows, and operators do not get much chance to familiarise themselves with the layout or the running characteristics of the stock on it.  This is shown by jumpy starting, stopping short, and jerky running, all of which spoil the illusion of smoothness.  The answer is for the operators to get a bit more practice in so they can fine tune their technique with all the stock they will be using, not always easy in a busy exhibiting season I know.

 

Secondly, and again IMHO, many people do not take time when observing real railways to note how the trains move, how they sound, what the the wheel beats over the joints sound like on different stock at 50mph, or 20mph, or 100mph.  How rapidly does the train accelerate from the platform, how does a steam loco's exhaust relate to it's speed, what sort of difference in practice does a 6'10" diameter driving wheel make in relation to a 4'7" one.  The more you look at and listen to real trains in as many situations as possible, the better feel you will get for realistic operation of model ones.  if you spend a lot of time watching 100mph + trains whizzing by on a busy main line, you can be excused for not having much sense of how they behave starting and stopping, conversly, if you are a station observer, you might not have the best sense of how they look and sound at running speeds.

 

Shunting is a different beast.  There is shunting and shunting, and the vigorous banging around of wagons in a big marshalling yard accompanied by fit and dexterous mob-handed shunting staff is a world away from a solitary pick-up freight guard shunting out some half forgotten backwater of the sort typically modelled on his own, having to label the wagons and keep tally at the same time.  Such operations are normally carried out at walking pace to give him a fighting chance; there is no point in charging up to the next wagon only to have to wait a couple of minutes for him to turn up after throwing the last turnout 50 yards away at the yard throat!  This is not an excuse for shunting at the speed of continental drift, but a recreation of the reality of pick-up work.  Where the speed of continental drift is appropriate is when propelling wagons into a goods shed or loading dock, always a move done with extreme caution because of the limited clearances between dock and wagon side, and the need to buffer up gently to vehicles in which men may be working, the loading may not be complete, and loads not yet properly secured for transit.  Your shunting driver will not last long in the job if he goes banging around marshalling yard style here! 

 

In the case of vacuum or air braked stock, time must elapse after the train arrives in the reception siding while somebody goes around isolating all the brakes so the wagons can be loose shunted (you pull a cord which equalises the pressure on both sides of the vacuum cylinder, marked by a star symbol on the solebar), and some wagons have 2 cylinders, so on a 60 wagon train this takes a good while.  The imaginary shunter must go in between to uncouple the vacuum pipes, and the loco must be stationary, in mid gear, and with brakes on before he does this if he's got any sense!  Don't forget that, if you are shunting with a steam loco with screw reversing, you will have to come to a stand for a few seconds between each change of direction; GW modellers note than only the 67xx/6750 series of panniers were fitted with steam reverse, and that these were almost exclusively used as dock shunters in the South Wales ports and Avonmouth.

 

A common mistake is made during model run around movements of passenger trains.  The loco draws to a stand, a suitable time elapses for the passengers to get off and the porters to slam the doors after them, and the train sets back so that the loop is clear, the loco detaches, runs around, and drops back onto the stock from the country end of the station.  All good so far, but then it contacts the stock and keeps going!!!  This is seriously unrealistic practice, as it is at this point in the manoeuvre that the vacuum pipes have to be recoupled and a brake continuity test performed.  The loco must stand motionless while the brakes are blown off, the guard carries the test out, and the brakes blown off again before the train can set back into the platform, any parcels loaded on,  and the passengers board it, about a minute though 30 seconds will do on a model.

 

General advice might be to say that, if you think you are operating your trains fast enough, then you need to slow down, and if you think you are operating your trains slowly enough, you probably need to speed up a bit, but that the most important thing is to operate smoothly and take into account the real railways situation you are replicating.

[Chris M]

 

A common mistake is made during model run around movements of passenger trains.  The loco draws to a stand, a suitable time elapses for the passengers to get off and the porters to slam the doors after them, and the train sets back so that the loop is clear, the loco detaches, runs around, and drops back onto the stock from the country end of the station.  All good so far, but then it contacts the stock and keeps going!!!  This is seriously unrealistic practice, as it is at this point in the manoeuvre that the vacuum pipes have to be recoupled and a brake continuity test performed.  The loco must stand motionless while the brakes are blown off, the guard carries the test out, and the brakes blown off again before the train can set back into the platform, any parcels loaded on,  and the passengers board it, about a minute though 30 seconds will do on a model.

I do this on my N gauge layout but, as I don't have any brakes on the stock, it isn't possible to couple up without the coaches moving. If the baseboard isn't perfectly level the coaches roll off on their own!

[Junctionmad]

My own view is that speeds tend to be dictated by the layout , and equally what's needed at exhibitions is very different to a layout operated privately. Many exhibitions are filled with the non enthusiast , and these viewers will not thank you for sparse trains and prototype running speeds. Hence many exhibition layouts have train movements of a frequency rarely seen in practice and hence are often run at higher speeds to ensure they clear the layout before the next one.

 

In this context , while the call for scale speeds is admirable , if often unrealistic for the circumstances. What's is in my view inappropriate for most layouts , is any attempt at scale deceleration and acceleration , most layouts are very significantly compressed and therefore realistically the goal should be have the train reach running speed appropriate for the section of the layout its on. Taking 50-60 feet to reach the operating speed is ridiculous , on most layouts the train has long since disappeared into the fiddle yard or the notion of it still accelerating on a roundy roundy , ie reappearing again still accelerating is ridiculous.

 

In my view , many higher speed exhibition layouts are covering up poor pickups and poor track continuity. I was surprised at Warley to see many layouts need extensive hand of God inputs and one layout that seemed to have difficulty getting any train to progress around or stay on the track. This to me is a far greater destroyer of illusion then a certain degree of excessive speed. , excessive slow running was in my view not that common outside a few " plank " style layouts .

 

Smoothness of speed changes helps to convey the mass of the real thing , but most faults around lack of smoothness in my view are a function of electrical conductivity not operator issues

[The Stationmaster]

The point, IMHO, is to make your trains look as though they are behaving like real trains.  Now, real trains behave in all sort of different ways according to what sort of trains they are and what their drivers are doing to them, but a general rule is that they are heavy, cumbersome, and largely inert when stopped and momentous (!) when moving.  This means that any change in speed, or starting from rest, must be accomplished as smoothly as possible; if you do it smoothly, you can get away with quite a bit in terms of rapid acceleration or decelaration.  Coming to a stand is often in reality accompanied by a squeal of brakes and a jerk, so things are not so critical in that case, but an attempt not to have a brick wall stop from a scale 80mph is still desirable.

 

On exhibition layouts, I think there are 2 fundamental problems, at least with analogue control.  Firstly, many club layouts do not get much use between shows, and operators do not get much chance to familiarise themselves with the layout or the running characteristics of the stock on it.  This is shown by jumpy starting, stopping short, and jerky running, all of which spoil the illusion of smoothness.  The answer is for the operators to get a bit more practice in so they can fine tune their technique with all the stock they will be using, not always easy in a busy exhibiting season I know.

 

Secondly, and again IMHO, many people do not take time when observing real railways to note how the trains move, how they sound, what the the wheel beats over the joints sound like on different stock at 50mph, or 20mph, or 100mph.  How rapidly does the train accelerate from the platform, how does a steam loco's exhaust relate to it's speed, what sort of difference in practice does a 6'10" diameter driving wheel make in relation to a 4'7" one.  The more you look at and listen to real trains in as many situations as possible, the better feel you will get for realistic operation of model ones.  if you spend a lot of time watching 100mph + trains whizzing by on a busy main line, you can be excused for not having much sense of how they behave starting and stopping, conversly, if you are a station observer, you might not have the best sense of how they look and sound at running speeds.

 

Shunting is a different beast.  There is shunting and shunting, and the vigorous banging around of wagons in a big marshalling yard accompanied by fit and dexterous mob-handed shunting staff is a world away from a solitary pick-up freight guard shunting out some half forgotten backwater of the sort typically modelled on his own, having to label the wagons and keep tally at the same time.  Such operations are normally carried out at walking pace to give him a fighting chance; there is no point in charging up to the next wagon only to have to wait a couple of minutes for him to turn up after throwing the last turnout 50 yards away at the yard throat!  This is not an excuse for shunting at the speed of continental drift, but a recreation of the reality of pick-up work.  Where the speed of continental drift is appropriate is when propelling wagons into a goods shed or loading dock, always a move done with extreme caution because of the limited clearances between dock and wagon side, and the need to buffer up gently to vehicles in which men may be working, the loading may not be complete, and loads not yet properly secured for transit.  Your shunting driver will not last long in the job if he goes banging around marshalling yard style here! 

 

In the case of vacuum or air braked stock, time must elapse after the train arrives in the reception siding while somebody goes around isolating all the brakes so the wagons can be loose shunted (you pull a cord which equalises the pressure on both sides of the vacuum cylinder, marked by a star symbol on the solebar), and some wagons have 2 cylinders, so on a 60 wagon train this takes a good while.  The imaginary shunter must go in between to uncouple the vacuum pipes, and the loco must be stationary, in mid gear, and with brakes on before he does this if he's got any sense!  Don't forget that, if you are shunting with a steam loco with screw reversing, you will have to come to a stand for a few seconds between each change of direction; GW modellers note than only the 67xx/6750 series of panniers were fitted with steam reverse, and that these were almost exclusively used as dock shunters in the South Wales ports and Avonmouth.

 

A common mistake is made during model run around movements of passenger trains.  The loco draws to a stand, a suitable time elapses for the passengers to get off and the porters to slam the doors after them, and the train sets back so that the loop is clear, the loco detaches, runs around, and drops back onto the stock from the country end of the station.  All good so far, but then it contacts the stock and keeps going!!!  This is seriously unrealistic practice, as it is at this point in the manoeuvre that the vacuum pipes have to be recoupled and a brake continuity test performed.  The loco must stand motionless while the brakes are blown off, the guard carries the test out, and the brakes blown off again before the train can set back into the platform, any parcels loaded on,  and the passengers board it, about a minute though 30 seconds will do on a model.

 

General advice might be to say that, if you think you are operating your trains fast enough, then you need to slow down, and if you think you are operating your trains slowly enough, you probably need to speed up a bit, but that the most important thing is to operate smoothly and take into account the real railways situation you are replicating.

 

Oh , I could tear some of that to pieces - going in between to uncouple vac pipes on fitted wagons - why?  The reason they didn't have split pins was so that you didn't have to do that, just hook 'em off with the pole and shove.  In reality many freight trips were usually shunted by a  couple of men - the Guard and someone from the yard/station being shunted because it was the only way to get the work done in the time allowed and as for engines coming up against wagons on or in which men were working someone was definitely not doing the job properly if that happened.   And most folk would always try to shunt a yard as quickly as possible in order to get in the cabin for tea etc or down the road to the pub.

 

Don't forget that in steam days a brake continuity test was often observed in the breach on many branches with regular run rounds - if it worked last time and the vacuum was reading correctly in the van nobody was going to bother with testing something they'd already done earlier in the day.

[tender]

I do this on my N gauge layout but, as I don't have any brakes on the stock, it isn't possible to couple up without the coaches moving. If the baseboard isn't perfectly level the coaches roll off on their own!

 

 

We carry a small spirit level and have adjustable feet to level the layout to avoid this problem. It takes a few extra minutes to put the layout up but worth the effort.

I don't know about N gauge but we have no problems with coaches moving while coupling in 00.