Small decoder recommendations

[The Fatadder]

It's a long time since I last bought any decoders (got to be close to 10 years). In the past I have always used Lenz Golds, but now price and size are really coming to the front of my requirements over spec features that I don't use l.

 

Can anyone recommend me some small decoders to look at please.

Needs 4 digit address, back EMF and to be fairly compact (intended for an austerity, and a pair of 45xx (all to be hard wired). No need for any functions as there are no lights etc.

Price is important (but so is good running)

 

Thanks

[tractor_37260]

It's a long time since I last bought any decoders (got to be close to 10 years). In the past I have always used Lenz Golds, but now price and size are really coming to the front of my requirements over spec features that I don't use l.

 

Can anyone recommend me some small decoders to look at please.

Needs 4 digit address, back EMF and to be fairly compact (intended for an austerity, and a pair of 45xx (all to be hard wired). No need for any functions as there are no lights etc.

Price is important (but so is good running)

 

Thanks

 

The new Zimo MX600 may be worth a look ? it's small and like all Zimo decoders should have excellent motor control....avail with just wires or 8pin plug

 

 http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/search/mx600-economy-loco-decoder-8-pin.aspx  

[The Fatadder]

Interesting, will do some measurements tonight and see if it will fit. Certainly added to the shortlist. I see the current fx issues have caught out the retailer, with the price tag on the photo not matching the current price....

[RFS]

Same price at Coastal DCC - http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/search.php?search=mx600r

 

But their postal costs are often cheaper.

[peterfgf]

It's a long time since I last bought any decoders (got to be close to 10 years). In the past I have always used Lenz Golds, but now price and size are really coming to the front of my requirements over spec features that I don't use l.

 

Can anyone recommend me some small decoders to look at please.

Needs 4 digit address, back EMF and to be fairly compact (intended for an austerity, and a pair of 45xx (all to be hard wired). No need for any functions as there are no lights etc.

Price is important (but so is good running)

 

Thanks

The latest Hornby Magazine (January 2017) has a useful article on 8-pin decoders.  I think one of the Zimo decoders comes out as best recommendation.

If it helps my experience to date is:

• I have found the new Lenz Standard +v2 10231-02 to be pretty good, but it is not that compact. It is now my decoder of choice if space permits.  I've found modellbahnshop-lippe.com to be competitive on price, even with recent currency fluctuations.
• For small decoders I've been happy with DCC Concepts Zen ZN8H series. The only problem is that they do not have overload protection (perhaps due to cost/specification considerations) and I've written off two due to lack of attention whilst wiring.
• I've tried the smaller TCS decoders, but I'm not entirely happy with them and probably won't but any more.

The Coastal DDC website has a very useful comparison page of decoder specifications on their website.  I've also found them to be friendly and efficient.

Peterfgf

[The Fatadder]

Thanks, I had been planning to use the direct 8 pin Zen for DCC ready locos so will look at the small one. It does worry me about the lack of overload protection though. I assume DCC concepts don't have any sort of idiot proof warranty then.

 

I think if it fits the Zimo is looking the one to go to for small chips, with the direct Zen for in loco DCC ready and my existing stocks of Lenz Golds for tender decoder locations

[RFS]

My decoder of choice is the Lenz Standard+, and, like peterfgf, purchase these from one of the German box-shifters.  I've used lippe.com but also http://www.arstecnica.de/shop/digital-switching/Lokdecoder-Standard-V2-1-0A--mi-Funktionsausgaengen.html where the Lenz decoder is €16.99, and purchasing 3 gets you free postage.

 

I also now have a number of Zimo MX600R decoders which I've found to be excellent performers, and use them wherever the Lenz doesn't fit.

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

Hi Fatadder,

 

I've been converting my fleet of around 50 OO locos, mainly BR(W) to DCC since the Summer of this year. I don't have huge amount of money and I don't want sound. I do however want excellent slow speed running and short circuit/thermal overload protection. Finally, I want support for the Lenz ABC (Automatic Braking Control) which will allow me to implement a degree of automation. Lenz ABC will cause a loco to come to a stand smoothly and automatically in a track section if it is switched to do so a bit like track sections on the real railway. It will enable my to protect stationary trains "in the rear" and also to stop locos running into buffer blocks in Headshunts or Bay platforms

 

Only three manufacturers seem to support Lenz ABC: Lenz, Zimo and ESU. I've tried samples from all three manufacturers and also some Hattons Direct chips.

Whether you're interested in ABC or not you might be interested in my experience fitting and tuning decoders this summer.

 

The Hattons Direct chips give satisfactory running in my Bachmann Panniers. They don't support ABC but are easy to install and give pretty good performance. I have no complaints about them but suspect comperable Zimo chips might be a little smoother.

 

The ESU chips were so appalling they are unused after entirely unsatisfactory testing. I'm sure other people get great result from these chips or they wouldn't be in business but I have no confidence in them whatsoever.

 

The Lenz Standard+ V2 gives very good results indeed in most of my locos, especially Hornby Granges and 28xxs. Like you I have some issues with the new Hornby King. My specimen emits a grinding noise and judders somewhat at low speed. The BEST results I have got from it so far are by using the Standard+ V2 and setting CV50 to 2. (Motor Type).

 

I have several Bachmann locos that have the 21 pin interface. I have fitted all of these with the Lenz Silver+ 21 and all perform very well indeed and installation is simplicity itself.

 

For really smooth running and massive scope for motor "tweaking" I am very impressed with the Zimo MX600R. I have used it to coax superb performance out of the famously difficult Bachmann Hall. Just getting a decoder to fit inside one of these locos is a trial! Getting the Lenz Standard into one was very difficult indeed so I tried the MX600. It's a little smaller than the Standard+ and the wiring loom isn't as long. By trial and error I have discovered CV settings that get three of mine to run smoothly down to a crawl. Get back to me if you are interested in the settings I have used.

 

If there is a drawback in the MX600 it is that it is only rated at 0.8A. For my most prized locos (Hornby Castles) I have gone for the MX600s big brother, the MX630 which is rated at a Amp. However, the MX630 ain't cheap.

 

Best Regards

 

Andy.

[SRman]

TCS M1 : these are small and able to handle a good amount of power draw. They are relatively cheap (mid-range cost), and have the advantage of their "goof-proof" warranty, where if it blows up, whether their fault or yours, they'll replace it.

[RFS]

 

If there is a drawback in the MX600 it is that it is only rated at 0.8A. For my most prized locos (Hornby Castles) I have gone for the MX600s big brother, the MX630 which is rated at a Amp. However, the MX630 ain't cheap.

 

 

 

The power consumption of current Hornby locos is modest and most unlikely to exceed 0.5A.  The locos that Hornby offer DCC-fitted come with their R8249 decoder which is only rated at 0.5A, and with no overload protection will burn out if you seriously try and exceed that. I have an MX600R in a Hornby rebuilt West Country and it has no problem at all with 8-9 coach trains.

[Nigelcliffe]

 

Only three manufacturers seem to support Lenz ABC: Lenz, Zimo and ESU. I've tried samples from all three manufacturers and also some Hattons Direct chips.

 

 

There are several others with ABC support, but tend to be more obscure European makers.   eg. CT, Umelec (inventor of ABC),  Doehler & Haass, Kuhn,  and probably others. 

[melmerby]

Don't bother with TCS as they are no cheaper than Lenz but IMHO Lenz are superior in every respect. (especially the linearity of the speed curve)

The Lenz Standard + will fit in the 45XX

 

Keith

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

The power consumption of current Hornby locos is modest and most unlikely to exceed 0.5A.  The locos that Hornby offer DCC-fitted come with their R8249 decoder which is only rated at 0.5A, and with no overload protection will burn out if you seriously try and exceed that. I have an MX600R in a Hornby rebuilt West Country and it has no problem at all with 8-9 coach trains.

 

Hi RFS,

 

Thanks for that. I recently conducted a trial in which I used a non-DCC Hornby Castle and 7 coaches (roughly the maximum I expect them to pull). I then placed an Ameter in series with the DC controller and observed the current drawn as the loco moved away. To my amazement the peak was only about 150mA, comfortably within the 800mA that even the MX600 is rated at. I should add the coaches were light, free running new Hornby Collets, and my test track had no gradients or curves which would increase the current drawn. Finally, I am inferring DCC current by measuring DC current. Still, I am inclined to agree with your conclusion that 0.5A may well be adequate for modern OO gauge stock.

 

I guess I am just being over-cautious with the MX630s!

 

Does anyone know how you can see the ACTUAL current when a loco is running in DCC? I have an NCE Powercab. Maybe I can see current levels using that?

 

Andy.

[The Fatadder]

I hadn't really thought about power consumption. While my curves are 3ft plus radius, trains are 7/8 coaches long including a fair amount of kit built stock

[peterfgf]

Hi RFS,

 

Thanks for that. I recently conducted a trial in which I used a non-DCC Hornby Castle and 7 coaches (roughly the maximum I expect them to pull). I then placed an Ameter in series with the DC controller and observed the current drawn as the loco moved away. To my amazement the peak was only about 150mA, comfortably within the 800mA that even the MX600 is rated at. I should add the coaches were light, free running new Hornby Collets, and my test track had no gradients or curves which would increase the current drawn. Finally, I am inferring DCC current by measuring DC current. Still, I am inclined to agree with your conclusion that 0.5A may well be adequate for modern OO gauge stock.

 

I guess I am just being over-cautious with the MX630s!

 

Does anyone know how you can see the ACTUAL current when a loco is running in DCC? I have an NCE Powercab. Maybe I can see current levels using that?

 

Andy.

Measuring DCC current is not simple.  The signal going to the loco is a series of very high frequency pulses.  Most current meters assume that the waveform is sinusoidal and calculate the root-mean-square value from the peak value. In other words, if the signal is not sinusoidal, the current measured will be in error.  You might be able to measure the current using a meter which has both a true RMS function and an ability to measure at high frequencies but I suspect that the best way would be to use an oscilloscope - cheap USB ones are available.  Perhaps one of the electrical engineers on this forum can provide better advice.

Peterfgf

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

I hadn't really thought about power consumption. While my curves are 3ft plus radius, trains are 7/8 coaches long including a fair amount of kit built stock

 

Hi again,

 

My recent ammeter trial was prompted by a simple question: How do you select an appropriately rated DCC chip for your locos? I looked on the web and found this articles on DCCWiki:-

 

http://www.dccwiki.com/Decoder_installation

 

It advocates forcing your loco to stall (by holding it down!), as this is the maximum current the motor can EVER draw. From this your can make an appropriate decoder selection. I didn't have the heart to do this to my locos for fear of burning them out though the article does say it should be done only momentarily! So, I chickened out and just tested a loco with maximum typical load......

 

Regarding you heavy kit built coaches: my suggestion would simply to get one each of your preferred decoder and trailing them before going for a bulk conversion. Or failing that do a "serial-ammeter" test with a representative selection of your locos in DC mode and make an informed choice from that. As has been stated elsewhere, if your locos can pull your heavy coaches without stalling then the current draw shouldn't be that high if it's an RTR loco with no electrical faults. I'm not sure how you'd stand with kit-built locos or (say) Hornby Dublo.

 

Andy.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I drag full size trains of 2-3kg around for anything up to 20 minutes continuous running using both RTR and kit builds, and have yet to see one of near thirty Lenz standards in use fail. That includes running the track voltage above nominal 16V to get the more sluggard RTR mechanisms to achieve the 90mph the prototypes were capable of. (It's clear why they can offer the replacement warranty, it probably sees little use.)  And it will fit inside anything OO that isn't 'industrial loco' size. (Before this decoder was available I fitted the same size Lenz silver predecessor in Hornby Austerity 0-6-0T, Bach and Hornby 08s, Bach Jinty, 57xx, all installations fully concealed.) The performance is the killer advantage, this is where really smooth drive and a good progressive speed curve with plenty of CV3 and 4 range starts for the modest price asked.

 

I have no doubt of the Zimo MX600 performance, having long used a few of the excellent MX64 decoder to 'tame' older mechanisms with inferior mechanisms. Very welcome to have the Zimo package of adjustments at a smaller price. But a bit late in the day considering that most RTR mechanisms are now no challenge to get good results from?

 

Although reading above that a poster has trouble with what I assume to be the relatively new Hornby King and Bachmann Hall; perhaps a decoder with more motor tuning adjustment is required? Perhaps only for GW models, as the last half-dozen or so years of dry side applicable introductions that I have sampled are all fine with the Lenz Standard, despite quite a variety of motors: A2, B1, B17, C1, D16/3, J11, J15, J50, K1, L1, O1, O2, O4, V2, V3, diesel classes 15, 23, 26/0. (I hardwire the non 8 pin socketed, why pay near double for the Lenz silver or whatever?)

[shibushe]

For what its worth, I have several 5 Pole Hornby Tender Drive Locos, A3s & 4s. I tried cheap decoders but was disappointed with performance  slow running was poor.

Tried a Zimo ( Wired) Wow amazing, hard to believe they are not modern motors. Movement at Step 1.

[RFS]

To measure DCC voltage accurately you need one of these - https://tonystrains.com/rrampmeter-by-dcc-specialties/

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

 

 

Although reading above that a poster has trouble with what I assume to be the relatively new Hornby King and Bachmann Hall; perhaps a decoder with more motor tuning adjustment is required? Perhaps only for GW models, as the last half-dozen or so years of dry side applicable introductions that I have sampled are all fine with the Lenz Standard.....

 

I make particular reference to the Bachmann Hall for a couple of reasons. Firstly, Fatadder's Layout "Inspired by Brent June 1947" is likely to feature one or two. Secondly, I've now fitted decoders to most of the RTR ex-GWR locos of the recent era and believe it to be THE most difficult. For a start off, the 8 pin decoder socket sits in a space directly behind the motor while the pocket used to hold the decoder itself sits in front of the motor. The 8 decoder wires must therefore be threaded through a tiny channel between the bottom of the motor and the chassis on the Fireman's side. If these wires are even slightly proud of the motor and/or chassis you won't get the body back on! If you use tape to hold the wires in very often this will catch as you attempt to refit the body. Because the wires on the Lenz Standard are longer than those on the MX600 and the decoder itself is longer the wires are more prone to bulge and therefore resist the refitting of the body. Ideally I think the best solution with the Bachmann Hall is probably to hard-wire the decoder in position so at least the wires can be cut exactly to length, however I haven't got the confidence or skill to do that.

 

The next problem you may have with the Bachmann Hall is a pronounced fore-and-aft surging of the loco at mid speed. I have found it useful to reduce the Load Compensation (Back-EMF) applied to these locos as a partial antidote to the problem. The Zimo MX600 gives you a great degree of control over BEMF Intensity (CV58). You can also tinker with BEMF Sample Period and Duration using CV56. I don't think this degree of adjustment is available with the Lenz Standard+ V2 hence my recommendation of the Zimo.

[The Fatadder]

On the hall, does a direct plug decoder like the Zen fit into the DCC socket in place of the blanking plug? (And Is the modified Hall a tender decoder)

My current hall is a more complicated arrangement still, with every mm of space filled with lead (and a comet chassis). Current thoughts is hard wiring the chip in the tender...

[melmerby]

On the hall, does a direct plug decoder like the Zen fit into the DCC socket in place of the blanking plug? (And Is the modified Hall a tender decoder)

My current hall is a more complicated arrangement still, with every mm of space filled with lead (and a comet chassis). Current thoughts is hard wiring the chip in the tender...

The standard Hall requires the decoder to be put in the space in the boiler where the weight is, with the loom fed along the side to the plug under the cab floor. (which has no room above it)

I have a Lenz Standard + plus some lead in the space which means the total ballast is slightly more than originally provided.

 

Keith

[Guest 7007GreatWestern]

On the hall, does a direct plug decoder like the Zen fit into the DCC socket in place of the blanking plug? (And Is the modified Hall a tender decoder)

My current hall is a more complicated arrangement still, with every mm of space filled with lead (and a comet chassis). Current thoughts is hard wiring the chip in the tender...

 

Hi Fatadder,

 

Well I haven't checked the dimensions of every direct-8pin decoder on the market...maybe it's possible but I'd be surprised. It's a very small space. Also I was limited in decoder selection by my preference for Lenz ABC.

 

Coastal DCC do a decoder selector which has dimensions of many (all?) of the decoders in common use:-

 

http://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/decoderselector.php

 

I'm afraid the 2015 Bachmann Modified Hall uses exactly the same chassis block as the earlier Collett Hall and hence there decoder socket and decoder pocket are exactly the same as before. Bachmann's refusal to retool the chassis block resulted in the historically inaccurate "front end" under the smokebox and they were rightly lambasted for that. The fact that decoder installation remained as awkward as ever seemed to have passed under the radar of most modellers. In contrast, the 2015 Hornby Collett Hall has the 8 pin decoder in the tender and installation takes 5 minutes top!

 

If you DO find a direct 8-pin that fits in the Bachmann Hall please let me know!

 

Photo attached of typical decoder installation on Bachmann Hall:-

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

If you DO find a direct 8-pin that fits in the Bachmann Hall please let me know!

 

No chance.

 

Unless you can find a decoder that is no bigger than the blanking plug you're stuffed!

Even the plug itself has little room for manouevre.

Quite why Bachmann did it this way is anybody's guess but it certainly isn't the most elegant layout.

Before this there had been two generations of split chassis Halls!

 

Keith

[cravensdmufan]

 

Does anyone know how you can see the ACTUAL current when a loco is running in DCC? I have an NCE Powercab. Maybe I can see current levels using that?

I have an NCE Powercab,  To check how much current a loco is drawing I put it on a seperate piece of track that I use for programming (completely seperate from the layout).. I actually put it on a rolling road to check current draw at all speeds and at various settings eg with lights and sounds etc.

 

Then set Powercab to show track current - Program 6 (Set Cab Parameters) Press 1 to show track current.

 

See Page 57 in the System Reference Manual.