BBC article - Average age of UK trains

[caradoc]

I presume that the MPs who are critical of the lack of foresight regarding the growth of passenger numbers did make the same point when the franchise was awarded, rather than simply being wise after the event ?

[Mike Storey]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-38676406

 

Not more...

 

Seems pretty factual to me? Nothing in there that Modern Railways hasn't been saying for years, both R Ford and I Walmsley. Why does anyone get so upset by these reports? Demand continues to grow, so people demand better and expect the government to sort it out. The government try to deflect on to anyone else they can. It was ever thus. The contradiction in much of this is the (apparent) clamour for re-nationalisation, and the use of such statistics/examples to support that, when actually it is government that have, by and large, caused the problem. To be fair, they are now specifying (or rewarding) new trains in many new franchise awards, rather than simply seeking lowest cost, so we shall see how public attitudes change or not over the next decade.

 

I leave the issue of whether "new" means "good" to others, but more trains with more seats is the most important issue, it would seem.

[Mike Storey]

I presume that the MPs who are critical of the lack of foresight regarding the growth of passenger numbers did make the same point when the franchise was awarded, rather than simply being wise after the event ?

 

I suspect most of the current lot were not around in 2003.

[lmsforever]

This is the BBC pursuing its long standing antithapy  towards rail ,the life of a rail unit is very long and with refurbishment can provide excellent services to new passengers a fact that journo,s don't understand.

[wombatofludham]

This is the BBC pursuing its long standing antithapy  towards rail ,the life of a rail unit is very long and with refurbishment can provide excellent services to new passengers a fact that journo,s don't understand.

 

I didn't get that impression at all.  It is reporting a report by MPs and accurately points out the fault lies at the original Franchise which assumed no growth - which I think is the only one to have been awarded on that basis (but I'm open to correction).  The BBC also pointed out that despite Arriva Trains Wales having made nearly £19m profit it received over £100m subsidy every year from the Welsh Government, and used this as a justification for the Welsh Government's aspiration for the rail franchise to be run on a not for shareholder profit basis like Welsh Water which would allow any profits to be re-invested in the network.  Certainly the piece for the lunchtime Wales Today seemed to cover all bases.

 

​I agree with others though the mileage of the train fleet is irrelevant, and to an extent age is also less of an issue (when the fleet of Cambrian 158s were refurbished by a grant from the Welsh Government I overheard a number of locals here in Fairbourne convinced they were new trains, there again, this is Fairbourne we're talking about).

 

I also agree that the current generation of politicians are very good at re-writing history and shirking the blame for previous decisions.

[pete_mcfarlane]

I presume that the MPs who are critical of the lack of foresight regarding the growth of passenger numbers did make the same point when the franchise was awarded, rather than simply being wise after the event ?

 

It must be awfully good fun being able to slag off the current Government for the mistakes your own party made when it was in power.

[Mike Storey]

It must be awfully good fun being able to slag off the current Government for the mistakes your own party made when it was in power.

 

Good point, except that the MP doing the slagging is a Tory and the govt in power at the time was Labour. Also, the Transport Select Committee was and is multi-party and had the ability to criticise any of these decisions at the time. I recall none believing that rail demand growth would continue significantly at the time, in line with the Treasury's contemporary stance, except the far-seeing Gwyneth Dunwoody, who was forever disagreeing with her party whips.

[Mike Storey]

This is the BBC pursuing its long standing antithapy  towards rail ,the life of a rail unit is very long and with refurbishment can provide excellent services to new passengers a fact that journo,s don't understand.

 

Not ITV, Channel 4 or Sky News then, who have reported same, pretty much word for word. This continuing, loaded bias against the BBC, driven largely by newspaper billionaires and private TV channel owners, is getting not a little annoying and very highly suspect.

[phil-b259]

I didn't get that impression at all.  It is reporting a report by MPs and accurately points out the fault lies at the original Franchise which assumed no growth - which I think is the only one to have been awarded on that basis (but I'm open to correction). 

 

Not so.

 

The previous Northern franchise was similarly let on a 'no growth' basis and gave rise to similar issues. This was addressed to some extent with the most recent franchise award which recognises what a mistake the previous stance was and thus incorporates significant investment in both new stock and an increase in fleet size (even after the Pacers have been withdrawn)

[corneliuslundie]

The 158s are fine, as I said earlier. I am not so keen on the newer units used on other long distance services. If I was commuting regularly in the Welsh valleys I would he more than happy to see the back of the Pacers.

And capacity is a major issue, with so little spare DMU stock around, when Arriva wanted to increase services on the Cambrian line, which has electronic signalling, it had to juggle things to release just one unit from the North Wales coast, and that was only possibly because the loco hauled set was available to be redeployed. Only the 158s can use the Cambrian line, and though it would probably be possible to fit ERTMS to other units it would be a big and expensive job.

The Welsh Assembly's hope for electrification of the Valleys lines (though suggestions of light rail have been met with "we don't want trams") look optimistic bearing in mind the slippage on other schemes. So what they will use when the Pacers have to go is anyone's guess.

Maybe 15 years ago Arriva could have got hold of extra units, but the changes now are very small, albeit that when the current electrification schemes are all complete (one day!) there will be plenty of fairly elderly stock available.

But for the new franchise I think things will be very difficult, unless the Assembly is willing to pay for new stock being built (or it turns out to be cheaper than old). Since it does not have a lot oif money and seems determined to spend most of it on a few miles of motorway in Newport, I really don't know what will happen. And you can't go into your local supermarket and take trains off the shelf, so even if the new franchise opts for new build there will be some delay before they arrive, almost certainly until well after 1 Jan 2020.

Jonathan

Jonathan

[Mike Storey]

The 158s are fine, as I said earlier. I am not so keen on the newer units used on other long distance services. If I was commuting regularly in the Welsh valleys I would he more than happy to see the back of the Pacers.

And capacity is a major issue, with so little spare DMU stock around, when Arriva wanted to increase services on the Cambrian line, which has electronic signalling, it had to juggle things to release just one unit from the North Wales coast, and that was only possibly because the loco hauled set was available to be redeployed. Only the 158s can use the Cambrian line, and though it would probably be possible to fit ERTMS to other units it would be a big and expensive job.

The Welsh Assembly's hope for electrification of the Valleys lines (though suggestions of light rail have been met with "we don't want trams") look optimistic bearing in mind the slippage on other schemes. So what they will use when the Pacers have to go is anyone's guess.

Maybe 15 years ago Arriva could have got hold of extra units, but the changes now are very small, albeit that when the current electrification schemes are all complete (one day!) there will be plenty of fairly elderly stock available.

But for the new franchise I think things will be very difficult, unless the Assembly is willing to pay for new stock being built (or it turns out to be cheaper than old). Since it does not have a lot oif money and seems determined to spend most of it on a few miles of motorway in Newport, I really don't know what will happen. And you can't go into your local supermarket and take trains off the shelf, so even if the new franchise opts for new build there will be some delay before they arrive, almost certainly until well after 1 Jan 2020.

Jonathan

Jonathan

 

True of the current situation, but there will shortly be a treasure trove of second-hand, sorry, pre-owned, short distance EMU's appearing on e-bay in the next two years, from the GTR, Anglia and LO renewal orders. So train availability or cost may not be the issue it has to date. It will be down to the wire.....see what I did there?

[lmsforever]

Sorry if its a little annoying but it is documated that the BBC has lost the plot and many ordinary people are ignoring what comes out of that corporation.Agree about 158,s they are good solid well built units the seats are comfortable not like the units to Marylebone they are very thin and you have have a numb bum at the end of the journey.I think many ten year old units are better than the latest ones certainly the 8oo,s I still like traveling by HST and its a pity that they are going to scrap.The benefit of having a wide age of units I think is the cascade of them as new ones come in to service,it will give the new operators the chance to refurb them.

[Derekl]

The BBC article and probably others quoted an ORR spokesperson to the effect that old trains are better than new from a passenger viewpoint (although reliability was mentioned) - perhaps a pity that none of the journalists appear to have addressed this issue, given the fairly consistent views above.

 

Sure the Pacers are terrible - but they were when introduced, as I recall. It is difficult to beat the comfort of a Mk 3, preferably before FGW have got hold of it, but even then they ride well - the 442's on the Brighton line, even in their aging state are noticeably more comfortable than the 377s, from the experience of my occasional visits to the deep south.

 

As for the new 700s, as Ian Walmsley has pointed out, the person who specified the seats really needs to be shot at dawn (well, that is my thought - he may not have specifically said that). A brief 15 minute ride established that it is simply appallingly uncomfortable - the seats are cramped and the ambience poor. It beggars belief that a person with any understanding of seating signed these off. These trains are also supposedly fro fairly long distance travel - the Brighton to Bedford trip is around 2.5 hours, although I don't suppose many do the whole distance - but regular commutes of around an hour must be common.

 

I am told that Siemens advised against the seating, although my source is a a little unsure - but I would not be surprised as I am sure they would prefer not to be associated with this sort of mess....

 

As for: "Sorry if its a little annoying but it is documated that the BBC has lost the plot and many ordinary people are ignoring what comes out of that corporation." I have no idea who these "ordinary" people are, but if they are ignoring BBC material for some completely irrational reason, as appears, then they are the one's who have seriously lost the plot. The BBC is a major asset to the UK democratic process and a few minutes exposure to similar institutions elsewhere would confirm that. Perhaps (and hopefully) the "ordinary" people are limited to the likes of lmsforever....

[Mike Storey]

Sorry if its a little annoying but it is documated that the BBC has lost the plot and many ordinary people are ignoring what comes out of that corporation.Agree about 158,s they are good solid well built units the seats are comfortable not like the units to Marylebone they are very thin and you have have a numb bum at the end of the journey.I think many ten year old units are better than the latest ones certainly the 8oo,s I still like traveling by HST and its a pity that they are going to scrap.The benefit of having a wide age of units I think is the cascade of them as new ones come in to service,it will give the new operators the chance to refurb them.

 

Documated??? But you admit there is a plot.....

[Mark Saunders]

The Public are not that concerned about the age of the train, most of what concerns them is did it turn up, was it on time, was it clean and did I get a seat!

 

What colour it is painted does not come in to the equation!

 

Mark Saunders

[lmsforever]

Just look at the people in charge and listen and watch the output on news casts I am not alone in dismissing this companies views on many subjects what is the broadcast quality like across the channel? I was interested in Ian Walmsleys comments on the 700 glad I will not have to use these units. 

[phil-b259]

 

 

I am told that Siemens advised against the seating, although my source is a a little unsure - but I would not be surprised as I am sure they would prefer not to be associated with this sort of mess....

 

To an extent you could take the attitude of "well they would say that wouldn't they" and regard it as an attempt to charge the purchaser more to fit something better.

 

However given the purchaser in this case was the DfT - who also decided that tables, charging points and I think maybe even Wi-Fi were deemed 'unnecessary' Siemens may have had a point...

[Christopher125]

As for the new 700s, as Ian Walmsley has pointed out, the person who specified the seats really needs to be shot at dawn (well, that is my thought - he may not have specifically said that). A brief 15 minute ride established that it is simply appallingly uncomfortable - the seats are cramped and the ambience poor. It beggars belief that a person with any understanding of seating signed these off. These trains are also supposedly fro fairly long distance travel - the Brighton to Bedford trip is around 2.5 hours, although I don't suppose many do the whole distance - but regular commutes of around an hour must be common.

 

I had my first ride on a 700 before Christmas expecting the worse but I thought they were absolutely fine, seats included - ultimately it's a matter of personal preference.

[wombatofludham]

I had to laugh, tonight's Wales Today piece on the Age of the Train had some archive footage of presumably a Regional Railways press special introducing the 158s to the Cambrian.  My God how did they manage to accomodate the mullets and padded shoulders of the invited guests into those seats?: 

[Mike Storey]

Just look at the people in charge and listen and watch the output on news casts I am not alone in dismissing this companies views on many subjects what is the broadcast quality like across the channel? I was interested in Ian Walmsleys comments on the 700 glad I will not have to use these units. 

 

Across the channel? Here, it is very similar to those of the UK, and of CNN, CBC etc, where news programmes are concerned. The greatest difference is the number of current affairs programmes which involve, often large numbers of people around a huge table, discussing items of the moment at extreme length. It is often hard to follow as they like talking over each other, or, in the other extreme, allow one person to go on and on and on. I have not come across any shows like Question Time, where an audience is directly involved, but I may simply keep missing it if it exists. Also relatively rare are the smaller panel shows, like Peston or Andrew Neil's various programmes, or one-to-one interview shows like Andrew Marr. These are usually at peak viewing times for the UK (early to mid-evening), but most French watch the game shows and then turn it off, and go to bed, or, in the cities, go out. People still read newspapers in very large numbers here, but mostly regional ones.

 

For a flavour, watch France24 for a bit, which is more like UK news and current affairs in its format, as that is its target, but still loves the large panel of experts/ex-politicians/journalists/writers/philosophers/artists/business folk to spend an hour or two arguing with each other. They do not press active politicians in hard nosed interviews very often - they are much more respectful, and that is where they fail. Politicians make speeches or declare a new policy, they report it without comment, and then invite the world and its uncle to comment on it. Very different to the UK - there is no real equivalent to Laura Kuennsberg, Andrew Neil, Andrew Marr and the many others who try to make UK politicians squirm in their seats. The French do that at the ballot box, where regional and local elections are much more frequent than in the UK, and changes in the mood of the country can be more accurately determined than in any poll. It is evident in the last six months that that mood has changed, and not in the direction the far right would wish it.

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