pete_mcfarlane Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 The BBC have an article on the average age of British trains: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38450117 Not surprisingly, it's 21 years, given that trains tend to have a life of about 40 years, although there are various rent-a-quote pressure groups who have problems with this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 28, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 28, 2016 The BBC have an article on the average age of British trains: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38450117 Not surprisingly, it's 21 years, given that trains tend to have a life of about 40 years, although there are various rent-a-quote pressure groups who have problems with this. This was in the Daily Wail a day or so back along with similar inane comments from 'interested rabble rousers'. In reality I'm not entirely sure how relevant it is - the age of a train obviously has some impact but with regular maintenance and overhaul that impact is fairly limited as we are not talking about, say, a family car. It would be quite amusing to add what sort of mileage some of these 'old' trains have accumulated and what sort of mileage some of them are knocking up day after day and compare that with the mileage achieved by most private cars. So basically a load of blather for the chattering classes to chatter about and not much else. And BTW I think I much prefer to travel on a 30+ year old HST instead of a far newer Pendolino on the WCML - age isn't everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 The Guardian has a fairly typical misrepresentation of this. MerseyRail and Caledonian Sleepers are apparently using stock up to 37 and 41 years old, respectively, although as both are scheduled for replacement in the near future (and as stated above, this is basically the end of their intended service lives) I'm far from clear what their actual point might be. I can't dispute that travelling on the sundry multiple units that rattle sporadically between ECML and various East Coast destinations isn't much fun, but they aren't intended to be luxury travel and are all well within their service lives. The ongoing use of 125 HST from the 1970s - which surely must be long past their sell-by dates - doesn't seem to rate a mention, presumably because they have no replacements? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 So basically a load of blather for the chattering classes to chatter about and not much else. It seems to be part of an ongoing attempt to make out that the current Government isn't investing in the railways. I've noticed a few other similar stories of late - there were some over Christmas blaming the Christmas engineering closures on this supposed lack of investment (which makes no sense at all). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted December 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2016 I would have thought that the oldest would have been the Isle of Wight 1938 stock??? I would again much rather travel on Mk3 stock than any of the modern stuff. Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 The mean age since construction conceals as much as it reveals. A weighting for mileage run and service speed would shift that number toward the 40 years end: the majority of high speed long distance service is in mk3 and mk4 stock with their corresponding traction units, 40 and 30 year old designs respectively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 The mean age since construction conceals as much as it reveals. I think the intention is to head off the regular bleating about how a given persons trains are definitely "the oldest" in the country, which happens every time a new train goes into service anywhere else.... I'd much prefer we had a national minimum standard (seat quality, amenities etc) which old trains were refurbed up to and new trains ordered to, which ought to equalise the quality of travel experience across the network. As others have said, old/new doesn't necessarily equate to bad/good. Apropos not much else, interesting to see how the averages change over time - on the last one of these I'm pretty sure Anglia was the oldest, the divesting of inner suburban routes to TFL Rail (operated by elderly 315 and 317) has made a big difference! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60159 Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 This sort of stuff is what we are subjected to these days by journalists and the incessant political pointless point-scoring attempts. Within limits, the average age of rolling stock is meaningless. I'd far rather travel in an "ancient" 125 than some of the pretty ropey multiple units of less than half their age and the awful Voyagers. We live in a world of misinformation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 ...And BTW I think I much prefer to travel on a 30+ year old HST instead of a far newer Pendolino on the WCML - age isn't everything. We could open a book on which first reaches the point at which they are assessed as no longer economically maintainable. Eventually with any design there is an end of life decision to be made. Quite a suspicion that earlier more conservative designs may possess endurance that later designs cannot match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed-farms Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 I think the phrase "slow news day" springs to mind here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Quite a suspicion that earlier more conservative designs may possess endurance that later designs cannot match. It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens to more modern "electronics-heavy" trains when they start getting long in the tooth. Whether a mid-life overhaul becomes as much about ripping out and replacing obsolete tech as much as new seats and mechanicals! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Apropos not much else, interesting to see how the averages change over time - on the last one of these I'm pretty sure Anglia was the oldest, the divesting of inner suburban routes to TFL Rail (operated by elderly 315 and 317) has made a big difference! As usual Martyn has said what I was going to say, but better worded. Spot figures don't say much.It would be interesting to see which areas have been in the top 5 lowest average age the most over say the last 40 years, or the average age over over 40 years. My guess is the MML, suburban and InterCity would win that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens to more modern "electronics-heavy" trains when they start getting long in the tooth. Whether a mid-life overhaul becomes as much about ripping out and replacing obsolete tech as much as new seats and mechanicals! This seems to be happening already, with new traction equipment being fitted to some of the older EMU classes (455/465/466). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
37114 Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 The article fails to pick up on the pertinent point that many older trains are more comfortable for passengers as the space per seat was designed around passenger comfort in most cases rather than restricting the cubic space per passenger to within an inch of that allowable and not using materials which prioritise weight saving over passenger comfort. While a full electric IEP service will take a few precious minutes of my London commute, I remain convinced they will be as comfortable as an HST. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Miles Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Some old things are really good (Yes I am old so biased) such as HSTs. IMHO the most comfortable trains in the UK at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 This seems to be happening already, with new traction equipment being fitted to some of the older EMU classes (455/465/466). Wasn't thinking so much in terms of traction equipment, what I had in mind was more the slightly more modern trains where everything is managed via an onboard computer. For example, do the Electrostars still run on Windows ME? I know obsolescence (in terms of the ability to do the job every day) isn't as much an issue there as it would be for a home or office PC as on a train it's doing a strictly defined set of things that it was designed to safely do, but we don't really have any way of telling whether the underlying electronics that run the programming will survive the life of the train. In some ways you're almost talking about a 40 year old portable PC with a train attached! I also have in mind modern cars, where it's not that unusual these days to hear of otherwise mechanically sound cars being scrapped because the engine management (or whatever) module has gone, and replacing the aged electronics will cost more than the car is worth - big change from when it used to be engines and gearboxes that did that! With a car having a design life of maybe 10 years versus a train's 40 - is this predicting what will happen to the trains of the last decade or so in time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Current thinking goes in this direction http://www.westermo.co.uk/web/web_en_idc_uk.nsf/alldocuments/ED653382E6C7C7CBC1257A3F0034E62A http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/SiteCollectionDocuments/en/rail-solutions/rail-automation/train-control-systems/trainguard-mt-en.pdf (other manufacturers are available!) Eventually, the distinction between the on-train and wayside data networks disappears, and the hardware on the train is "simply" a suitably rugged version of wider-standard kit, which leaves the software ....... and it is that, the proprietary genie in the bottle, which is the real long-term-supportability worry, as is the case in nearly every other application. Kevin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dava Posted December 28, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2016 This forensic journalism really needs to include the heritage railway sector, where casual investigation would show almost all trains in use being formed of carriage stock at least 50-60 years old, for example on Santa Specials (though the GCRN is running the prototype HST set today!). The Isle of Wight is running 4-wheel wooden coaches, filled with children and families. The Festiniog and Talyllyn Railways run carriages over 100 years old. Should this be allowed? Illustrate with pictures of 19th century rail accidents to show consequences etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staplehurst_rail_crash#/media/File:Staplehurst_rail_crash.jpg Dava Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 This forensic journalism really needs to include the heritage railway sector, where casual investigation would show almost all trains in use being formed of carriage stock at least 50-60 years old, for example on Santa Specials (though the GCRN is running the prototype HST set today!). The Isle of Wight is running 4-wheel wooden coaches, filled with children and families. The Festiniog and Talyllyn Railways run carriages over 100 years old. Should this be allowed? Illustrate with pictures of 19th century rail accidents to show consequences etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staplehurst_rail_crash#/media/File:Staplehurst_rail_crash.jpg Dava Then again, heritage railways (especially certain narrow gauge lines) have quite a lot of stock which is either new, or so completely reconstructed as to be new in all but name.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted December 28, 2016 Author Share Posted December 28, 2016 I know obsolescence (in terms of the ability to do the job every day) isn't as much an issue there as it would be for a home or office PC as on a train it's doing a strictly defined set of things that it was designed to safely do, but we don't really have any way of telling whether the underlying electronics that run the programming will survive the life of the train. I'd not thought of that aspect of it. Embedded computer systems aren't my area, but there's a whole sector of the IT industry specialising in them and the issues around hardware obsolescence seem to be well understood. This article is quite interesting: http://www.controleng.com/single-article/control-system-lifespan-how-long-is-long-enough/d3465d83da0bf2c93632e4fc034e8bac.html One simple fact is that some of the board-level components that were common when the system was designed in the early 1980s have been discontinued. Manufacturers have to work at creating functional equivalents using newer components. The new replacement board that you’re inserting into your APACS system may not look exactly like the old one. It probably has far fewer devices on it, but it fits in the same slot and does the same thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrel Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 According to the article Old = bad New = good.. However if I'm travelling on the northern half of the ECML and the first train is a voyager I will wait for the next one that is an HST of a mk4 set. The May be older but much much better. Also I'd rather travel in a mk2 coach than a pacer. Old = good often better New = not always good or better. And since it was the BBC that reported this how about the average age of the rubbish they broadcast? And how many of their programmes over Christmas were any good. In the old days you had entertainment programs like Morecambe and Wise or the two Ronnies. This Xmas day we had strictly some prats dancing, vs the midwife and eastenders. And on BBC 4 a repeat of the good old days Christmas special from 1959 (that's older than a class 37) People in glass houses and all that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 The usual journalistic ill-informed drivel. The top seven on the list are all due for replacement by new trains currently under construction, as are several others in whole or part. TfL rail (ie Liverpool Street-Shenfield) is a good example - the current fleet is solely 315s and Bombardier is busy building their replacements, the Crossrail 345s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 I'd much rather be in the cab of a forty year old HST than a fifteen year old Class 66! These days I detest having to travel on the cushions when on duty, even for a short*rse like me the lack of legroom aboard Pendos and Voyagers is woeful. As for the Guardian, well, anything with wheels which isn't capable of throwing dinner parties in Islington seems to be fair game these days... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 The average age of rolling stock (and bits of it) on BR (SR) was considerably higher - I've witnessed maintenance records for axles that were 60 years old in everyday use under 4-EPB's in the early 80's . and these journalist dickheads also seem to ignore that the average age of cars on British roads is also higher now because they don't rust in 5 years like they used too and generally be relied upon to achieve 150k+ without major surgery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 The average age of British Airways fleet of 747s and 767s is 21 years. I thought you might want to know that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.