Bala Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Where can I find a copy of the drawing that shows the dimensions of the GWR corridor clerestory coaches, Hornby 4364 & 4365.(D25?) Is there one for the short clerestory coaches - Hornby R332 & R333? Thank you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 Where can I find a copy of the drawing that shows the dimensions of the GWR corridor clerestory coaches, Hornby 4364 & 4365.(D25?) Not sure whether the the brake 3rd is D29 or D25, but the 2nd/3rd is C15. Drawings for these can be found in, or surmised from, Jim Russell's Great Western Coaches Vol 1. They are fairly standard Dean designs. Is there one for the short clerestory coaches - Hornby R332 & R333? Not really. See http://www.gwr.org.uk/protriang.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 I do not know if the older shorter clerestory coaches are of actual prototypes or just generic, but as Miss Prism has refereed to Russells coach books the Vol 1 of A Pictorial History of GWR Coaches is a must, and second hand prices are now coming down on these books Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted December 31, 2016 Share Posted December 31, 2016 And that other essential source of information http://penrhos.me.uk/ 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lofty1966 Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 Triang /Hornby short clerestory coaches are a work of ficion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardGWR Posted January 1, 2017 Share Posted January 1, 2017 (edited) Triang /Hornby short clerestory coaches are a work of ficion. Not totally, as the references provided by Miss_Prism shew. I have an 1970s MRC article here by the late Jim Russell himself, called 'Cut and Slice' and he managed to get seven different vehicles, both bogie, six wheeled and four wheeled, out of them, also using a mix of Triang and Ratio. I think some were compromised in strict accuracy, Diagrams included C8, V1, Pols van (whatever that is). I think that the advantage of these units is that they're cheaply available and the mouldings, being accurate, save labour and will not fall off, a point made by Jim in his article. Edited January 1, 2017 by HowardGWR Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkAustin Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Another useful reference is an article by John Lewis in the 1981 Model Railway Constructor. He details all the variants on panel sizes/spacing for the clerestory stock. With this, you should be able to generate drawings of most of them using the Weight Diagrams at the NRM. They're not accurate enough on their own. If you can't get a copy, PM me with an email address and I'll scan mine. Mark A 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardGWR Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Another useful reference is an article by John Lewis in the 1981 Model Railway Constructor. He details all the variants on panel sizes/spacing for the clerestory stock. With this, you should be able to generate drawings of most of them using the Weight Diagrams at the NRM. They're not accurate enough on their own. If you can't get a copy, PM me with an email address and I'll scan mine. Mark A Yes I should have offered to do the same and do so now. I worry about copyright (I presume someone took over the rights of MRC when it folded and of course there is John L and also the legatees of Jim Russell). Still I suppose that exchange of information for non-commercial hobby purposes is allowed, if no payment is requested. Anyone know about that for certain? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardGWR Posted January 2, 2017 Share Posted January 2, 2017 Please note it is the 1981 MRC annual with this information in and not the monthly mags. Ah, I've been wracking my brains to remember where I saw JL's amazing codifying article and I remember now that I've got it. :-) That's the trouble with off-line reference works, i.e. books and mags. You either a) forget you have it with the reference material under discussion b) forget where you put it in your extensive GWR bookcase library c) believe you don't have it because you think you took it out of the library ten years ago d) (nowadays) think you saw it on the net but you didn't or your search criteria is inadequate. If all information was online, d) is the 'best worst' because you are more likely to find it eventually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowardGWR Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 If you want to see the great John Lewis information try here http://penrhos.me.uk/LewisClassification.shtml See my point d). Your site came up immediately in Google! Problem is, I wouldn't have believed such obscure information was online, but indeed, "Google is our friend"! Thanks Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Yes I should have offered to do the same and do so now. I worry about copyright (I presume someone took over the rights of MRC when it folded and of course there is John L and also the legatees of Jim Russell). Still I suppose that exchange of information for non-commercial hobby purposes is allowed, if no payment is requested. Anyone know about that for certain? I'm not a lawyer, but as I understand it any copying is breach of copyright, but is usually (at the copyright holder's discretion) permitted for non profit private use. I understand there is a difference between US and UK law on this point, but again don't quote me. It is time that the otherwise excellent Hornby coaches were upgraded to incorporate proper mouldings (if thet could do it twenty years prevoiusly!) The versions in pre-1908 livery aren't too bad, but even here the lack of relief is very noticeable (IMHO). On abolition of 2nd class in 1911 the composites had the centre lavatories converted to an extra compartment. If the narrow width is ignored (or corrected) the Tri-ang Bk/3rd can be modified to a D37 by the addition of a second luggage compartment. The alleged composite (it's single class as the compartments are all the same - too wide for a second and too narrow for a first) requires a lot of work to make anything of. Mine represent full firsts and I try to ignore that they are too short. It has been ignored that the panels of the extreme ends should be shorter to compensate for the ends of the coach. This has appeared masquerading as a Midland Railway coach* (the clerestory is GWR style and incorrect for a MR vehicle - Midland clerestories were one piece with the ends) and LNER livery - I can't comment on how accurate or otherwise this is. The Rev. Denny did convert some to represent GCR vehicles * I tried using one as the basis of a coach in 1912 crimson livery, but removal of the heat printed class numerals proved difficult and the project is stalled. (Another one....) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) Can anybody identify this? I can't find anything exactly like it in Russell. It seems to be a brake (tri-)compo judging by the window spacings or could it be an early slip coach? It has 6' 4" bogies and two lavatories. It is a kit but by whom? Thanks. Edited February 7, 2017 by Re6/6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2017 It, appears to be a brake compo, so will be a Diag E. I don't have my volume 1 of Russells coach book to hand, so I can't tell you which one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) F11 or F12 38'6" 4-compartment composite slip. The kit is probably a Roxey F12. (The F11 had 6'4" bogies, but I think the F12 had 8'6", so I'm not sure whether the model in the pic is supposed to be an F11 or an F12. Confusing!) Edited February 8, 2017 by Miss Prism Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 I concur. These slip coaches were used between Birkenhead/Liverpool and destinations on the SER, initially Folkestone but later, IIRC, Deal as well; possibly the F11s were on one route and the F12s on another. At the northern end of the route they worked through to Liverpool via the Mersey Railway's tunnel under the river. They are very short because the Folkestone Harbour branch could not accept anything longer (sharp curves) and they are narrow because the SER had a restricted loading-gauge. Note that there are no side look-outs because they would make the coach too wide for the SER; I think this is almost unique among GWR brake-coaches of the period. Note also that the kit provides door hinges only for the lowest hinge on each door, whereas most coaches show three visible hinges per door. This is probably correct; I suspect that the hinges were of a lower profile to save width, such that the upper two per door do not show externally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) Many thanks SS, Russ and Guy. I've found it now in Russell's 2nd appendix. Didn't think to look there also never thought of Roxey! Hopefully it will finish up like this! From Roxey Edited February 8, 2017 by Re6/6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Lovely, but where are the slip reservoirs? Underslung? (I like the slips that had long tanks on the roofs!) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 The kit bogies are 8' 6" so presumably it is an F12. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2017 The kit bogies are 8' 6" so presumably it is an F12. Now that l've got the thing they measure out at 7'6" (a size that l'd never heard of). When the first picture was examined (above) l assumed that they were 6'4". In Russell Appx 2 he states " Diagram F12 has no look-out and is fitted with 7'6" bogies.". Regarding the slip reservoirs they're shown in an end-on picture on the same page of Russell (#7) it shows roof mounted tanks either side of the clerestory. Did these coaches survive after their 'slipping' lives were finished and if they did might the tanks have been removed? There's always something new to learn with Dean coaches! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) Although not relevant to my question here's an all third that l made earlier....35+ years ago actually..... when they were quite a new thing! Needs a good refresh with cover-slip glazing, some brass work added and a good touch up! Looking at it, shouldn't l have glazed the clerestory lights? Edited February 8, 2017 by Re6/6 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold phil_sutters Posted February 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) Lovely, but where are the slip reservoirs? Underslung? (I like the slips that had long tanks on the roofs!) Like this one - Not a slip but some more hacked about Triangs, from circa 1968 - although most of mine went SDJR blue - but as this is a GWR thread - Edited February 8, 2017 by phil_sutters 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Rixon Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Hmm. When were the extra reservoirs fitted to the slip coaches generally? I have a vague memory that they were a retrofit on the Dean coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted February 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2017 Although not relevant to my question here's an all third that l made earlier....35+ years ago actually..... when they were quite a new thing! Needs a good refresh with cover-slip glazing, some brass work added and a good touch up! Looking at it, shouldn't l have glazed the clerestory lights? Dean 7 comp 3rd.jpg No, I think that for the '22 livery the clerestory windows were plated over. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Plated over or painted over? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Re6/6 Posted February 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2017 Those Triangs are very well done Phil. That's a cut'n'shut that l haven't seen before! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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