Nant Y Mynydd

[NHY 581]

Is the second photo Hafodyrynys?

 

Good spot. Yes it is. A Gordon Edgar image from 1972.

 

Fill your boots here.....

 

 

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/sets/72157626724121567/

 

 

Rob.

[Marshall5]

The first one is Avonside B3 'Sir John' at Mountain Ash.  Could the third one be at Graig Merthyr?

Ray.

[philip-griffiths]

Good spot. Yes it is. A Gordon Edgar image from 1972.

 

Fill your boots here.....

 

 

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/sets/72157626724121567/

 

 

Rob.

 

Takes me back.  Ruston, this is what you need to capture.  Have a look at the pictures of Hafodyrynys and the other mines.  

 

I remember as a child stretching to see out of the back of my parents Marina as we drove past the colliery to see if I could spot a working steam loco, often you could spot one on the spoil train.   The line between the colliery and the abandoned tunnel under the village always had a load of empty mineral wagons.  I can never remember seeing them shunted.  Oh and the locos were filthy.  

 

A good book to to see if you can borrow through a friend or your local library is Industrial Locomotives of Gwent by Geoffrey Hill. It has allocation data and a good variety of pictures to help you weather the locos.  

 

regards

[5050]

If you want me to weather your Bagnall, Paul, give it a repaint and bring it here and I'll do it.

Thanks for the offer Dave, I wish I'd asked you before, knowing your skills in the area.  However I can't face the prospect of a repaint but I might be open to a masterclass on weathering at some time.

 

I do have ther locos in the pipeline!

Edited January 3, 2017 by 5050

[Ruston]

Those pictures are tempting me to a later date. It would solve the problem of no matter what PO wagons I choose to buy they would have an actual colliery name on them, which sets an actual place instead of a fictional one and the fact that I already have some BR 16-tonners that I can use.

[46444]

Those pictures are tempting me to a later date. It would solve the problem of no matter what PO wagons I choose to buy they would have an actual colliery name on them, which sets an actual place instead of a fictional one and the fact that I already have some BR 16-tonners that I can use.

 

Hi Dave,

 

Great work on the Peckett's and the layout will certainly be a cracker.

 

On the subject of wagons have you thought about the Oxford Rail RCH 1923 7 Plank model which is as cheap as chips....almost!  Here's some I've repainted and weathered recently on my blog:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/531/entry-18800-oxford-rail-weathered-7-plank-ex-private-owner-wagons/

 

Look forwards to further updates.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[Fat Controller]

Some 12t wooden-bodied wagons, and perhaps some early sixteen-tonners, could be used for internal use between screens and land-sale yard. Such wagons would be black, in South Wales, though other Areas would have different colours. Such wagons were normally quite well kept, with the wagon painter often using italic script for load and tare weights.

[Ruston]

My order of track arrived today and so this evening I have been shuffling the points around and have arrived at what will now be the final variation of the track plan. The turnouts on the loop, next to the stream, would have been so far over the edge that it would be impossible to install solenoids under the boards for those two and the left hand end headshunt was quite superfluous. So now the loop will have only the shunt at the right hand end but will probably have a catch point at the left hand end. The revised plan means 6-wagon trains can be run and still provide space for 6 wagons and a loco.

 

The spare turnout will provide an extra dead-end siding to place half of the train in to keep the main line clear (only three wagons at a time will be propelled up the incline).

 

Cork being laid and trackwork loosely laid down to see exactly where the turnouts will go.

 

Trackwork.

I ordered the turnouts and plain track in code 75 - the plain track is Peco's new bullhead rail. The rail is very fine, the sleepers are wider than standard code 75 and the spacing looks to be wider too. The only problem is that it doesn't want to connect to the turnouts with normal code 75 joiners. Apart from that it looks really good and the downside of that is it shows up the turnouts as not matching but I guess it will all blend in once everrything is ballasted, painted and weathered.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Ruston

[5050]

Interesting they won't connect easily Dave.  I tend to use Peco N gauge ones for code 75 bullhead myself, giving them a slight squeeze with fine pliers and then reducing the length.  I could bring some on Saturday to try if you would like.  The overall 'thickness' of the two types of track seems different as well?

 

Are the plain boards along the front for extra scenic depth and will they be permanently attached or 'plug-in'?

[Stubby47]

Point motors don't need to be directly under the point - you can use a short length of wire-in-tube to reach the tie bar (above or below the baseboard), offsetting the motor by the required distance.

 

Stu

[Ruston]

Interesting they won't connect easily Dave.  I tend to use Peco N gauge ones for code 75 bullhead myself, giving them a slight squeeze with fine pliers and then reducing the length.  I could bring some on Saturday to try if you would like.  The overall 'thickness' of the two types of track seems different as well?

 

Are the plain boards along the front for extra scenic depth and will they be permanently attached or 'plug-in'?

I tried a different length of track and the joiners do fit, albeit with some force being needed to get them on, as opposed to them sliding easily onto the standard code 75 flat bottom rail. But with the first length of track they wouldn't go on at all. I wonder if the first length of track I tried had the rails put in upside down and the shape of the rail isn't the same for the top as for the bottom? It's difficult to tell with the naked eye in this scale (I remember now why I like 7mm!). The thickness of the two rail types is slightly different  - 1.195mm for the bullhead and 1.192mm for the flat bottom. Please bring some of those joiners over for this "rogue" length of track.

 

I have been rooting around in the loft, looking for some uncoupling electromagnets that I bought years ago for my old N gauge railway but were never used. I found them and so these will be fitted to work the Dingham couplers that I have ordered.

 

When it comes to wiring everything up I will wire it for DCC but it will run as DC initially. I can't be bothered putting in all those sectional switches for DC so It will be operated as One Engine In Steam until such a time as the decoders for the Pecketts become available. I'll need to wire up some multi-way sockets so the DCC equipment on Royd Hall can be unplugged and borrowed for this railway and returned without all the hassle of undoing seperate wires from under the baseboards on both layouts.

 

The plain boards along the front are for the stream.

[tractionman]

 

 

Last night I was looking through my book collection for ideas and one book I looked at was Visions Of Steam - The Four Seasons Of Steam In Industrial South Wales, by Peter Cavailer and Geoff Silcock. If you haven't got the book it's a picture book of really atmospheric monochrome photos that doesn't even have proper captions and doesn't just do the usual three quarter views of locomotives. It includes "arty" scenes and people and buildings. 

 

Thanks for this recommendation, I looked it up (a new one on me) and ordered it, the book arriving today - what a marvellous and evocative volume it is!

 

So full of atmosphere, and a fantastic photographic record of a world we have lost.

 

Your new layout looks top too!

 

cheers,

 

Keith

Edited January 6, 2017 by Keith Lilley

[5050]

Thanks for this recommendation, I looked it up (a new one on me)

A new one on me too.

 

I'll have a look at Ruston's copy tomorrow

 

Oh, Barclay, is the Narrow Planet works plate the one they list as OO9 ?

Edited January 6, 2017 by 5050

[br2975]

I'm no expert on the dvisions of Christianity  but I'd like to know whether chapels in South Wales are Weslyan or Baptist Personally I think the Baptist one looks better.

 

Huw Edwards may be able to help:-

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00fb96m/clips

[br2975]

Splendid weathering, Dave. Ex-Dodo looks superb.

 

Despite living here all my life I have little or no knowledge of the South Wales collieries. However,no doubt like many her, the arrival of a Peckett at my door has got me thinking. However, I will be looking to Somerset for my location

 

Outside your period but I thought I would post these images taken in South Wales. I hope you don't mind.

 

Rob.

 

No.1 - Mountain Ash

.

No.2 - Hafodyrynys or locally " Haverdruniss "

.

No.3 - Maesteg system I believe; Graig Merthyr (Pontardulais) was a drift mine, whereas this photo shows a headframe and sheaves in the distance.

.

Brian R

Edited January 6, 2017 by br2975

[Ruston]

I have just read, in the Hornby Peckett thread, that Digitrains have fitted a Peckett with sound. So that's a definite for this layout being DCC.

 

I managed to nip into my local model shop inbetween jobs, today and was looking at coal wagons - the price of OO wagons has gone up since I last did anything with OO - £14 for a short wheelbase PO coal wagon! I didn't pay that but found some older stock and bought one of those, which brings me on to rolling stock and traffic...

 

Hopefully those more knowlegeable about the South Wales coal trade can help me here but as far as I'm aware, a lot of output from this coalfield went for export to the docks at Newport, Cardiff, Swansea etc. So I guess my colliery company stock should have end doors?

 

Other PO wagons can be included of whatever door arrangement as coal merchants from just about anywhere could send their wagons to be loaded wherever was selling the type of coal they required at the best price.

 

What about pit props? Would the company's stock be sent from the coal customer to collect props instead of travelling empty to the colliery, or would these arrive in railway company wagons?

 

Explosives inwards - presumably in iron-bodied (gunpowder) vans?

 

Stone dust (for prevention of coal dust explosions underground) - bagged in vans, or in bulk, in roofed 7-plank wagons (of the same style as salt wagons)?

[br2975]

(i)

What about pit props? Would the company's stock be sent from the coal customer to collect props instead of travelling empty to the colliery, or would these arrive in railway company wagons?

 

(ii)

Explosives inwards - presumably in iron-bodied (gunpowder) vans?

 

(iii)

Stone dust (for prevention of coal dust explosions underground) - bagged in vans, or in bulk, in roofed 7-plank wagons (of the same style as salt wagons)?

 

 

(i)

Pit wod for supports and cribbing was imported into South Wales docks, and moved from the quayside to stacking grounds in GWR IU wagons. There was a huge stacking ground south of Cardiff's Queen Alexandra Dock. From there the timber would be backloaded in empty wagons to the pits.

 

The GWR Rulebook contained instructions on how pitwood / pit props should be loaded. This generally depended upon the length of the pitwood and the type of wagon it was to be carried in.

.

I have a copy of the rule book somewhere.

.

In later years there were just two main pit prop yards serving the South Wales coalfield

(a) St. Mellons, adjacent to the SWML between Newport and Cardiff, very close to where the current Wentloog Freightliner terminal stands, and (b) W.O.Williams at Wern Tarw, in the wilds near Heol-y-Cyw north of Pencoed. Both were rail served, the latter employed their own industrial loco(s).

 

(ii)

I can't speak for the early years, but post war, blasting powder for most South Wales pits came in the standard GWR/BR gunpowder vans from Penrhyndeudraeth, via the Cambrian Coast Line to Coton Hill then south to Severn Tunnel Junction and finally to Llantrisant. Here the GPVs were tripped to caves on the Brofiscin branch ( located off the Llantrisant - Common Branch Jct. / Cwm Colliery line ) where the blasting powder was stored and distributed by (at one time)  ICI. The Brofiscin branch closed circa 1968, after which the blasting powder was transferred to road at Llantrisant for the trip to Brofiscin.

 

(iii)

Stone dust was generally delivered in bags. This could come in covered vans.

.

The NCB Talywain system which served Blaenserchan Colliery ( to which there was no decent road access) had wagon(s) to convey stone dust. One was a Charles Roberts style steel bodied slope sided mineral wagon with a peaked wooden/corrugated iron roof and new wooden cupboard style doors added. I have a photo somewhere.

.

Hope this helps

.

Brian R

.

PS

Have you considered a 'paddy train' ?

In South Wales there were ex GWR vans, LMS vans and at least one SR Banana van converted for use on 'paddy trains'  serving Blaenserchan (East Wales) and Graig Merthyr (West Wales) pits.

Edited January 7, 2017 by br2975

[tractionman]

Thanks for the inf here Brian, I was just looking through the older posts on this thread and came across your pictures of south Wales industrial railways, excellent stuff!

 

For those who haven't seen these - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28737-south-wales-industrial-railways/

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

PS - digging down to the earlier threads there're lots of interesting discussions on prototype industrial matters as well as modelling topics (which seem to be more dominant in the more recent posts).

[Ruston]

(i)

Pit wod for supports and cribbing was imported into South Wales docks, and moved from the quayside to stacking grounds in GWR IU wagons. There was a huge stacking ground south of Cardiff's Queen Alexandra Dock. From there the timber would be backloaded in empty wagons to the pits.

 

The GWR Rulebook contained instructions on how pitwood / pit props should be loaded. This generally depended upon the length of the pitwood and the type of wagon it was to be carried in.

.

I have a copy of the rule book somewhere.

.

In later years there were just two main pit prop yards serving the South Wales coalfield

(a) St. Mellons, adjacent to the SWML between Newport and Cardiff, very close to where the current Wentloog Freightliner terminal stands, and (b) W.O.Williams at Wern Tarw, in the wilds near Heol-y-Cyw north of Pencoed. Both were rail served, the latter employed their own industrial loco(s).

 

(ii)

I can't speak for the early years, but post war, blasting powder for most South Wales pits came in the standard GWR/BR gunpowder vans from Penrhyndeudraeth, via the Cambrian Coast Line to Coton Hill then south to Severn Tunnel Junction and finally to Llantrisant. Here the GPVs were tripped to caves on the Brofiscin branch ( located off the Llantrisant - Common Branch Jct. / Cwm Colliery line ) where the blasting powder was stored and distributed by (at one time)  ICI. The Brofiscin branch closed circa 1968, after which the blasting powder was transferred to road at Llantrisant for the trip to Brofiscin.

 

(iii)

Stone dust was generally delivered in bags. This could come in covered vans.

.

The NCB Talywain system which served Blaenserchan Colliery ( to which there was no decent road access) had wagon(s) to convey stone dust. One was a Charles Roberts style steel bodied slope sided mineral wagon with a peaked wooden/corrugated iron roof and new wooden cupboard style doors added. I have a photo somewhere.

.

Hope this helps

.

Brian R

.

PS

Have you considered a 'paddy train' ?

In South Wales there were ex GWR vans, LMS vans and at least one SR Banana van converted for use on 'paddy trains'  serving Blaenserchan (East Wales) and Graig Merthyr (West Wales) pits.

Thanks for that, Brian.

 

I have thought about a paddy train but I'm not sure about what stock to use. I already knew that they used vans in later NCB days but what about in the 1920s and 30s? If they used second hand coaches I guess they would be ancient pre-grouping stuff? I could only get one 4-wheel coach into the headshunt anyway. Unless I run the paddy train from the exchange sidings to the run-round loop with the assumption that there is a larger village at that end and the pit itself is in easy walking distance from what's shown on the layout.

[philip-griffiths]

Thanks for that, Brian.

 

I have thought about a paddy train but I'm not sure about what stock to use. I already knew that they used vans in later NCB days but what about in the 1920s and 30s? If they used second hand coaches I guess they would be ancient pre-grouping stuff? I could only get one 4-wheel coach into the headshunt anyway. Unless I run the paddy train from the exchange sidings to the run-round loop with the assumption that there is a larger village at that end and the pit itself is in easy walking distance from what's shown on the layout.

On the Sirhowy line they used old North London stock with wooden benches for workmen' strains. I've also seen photos of older pre grouping stop used for this work.

 

Regards.

[Ruston]

Most of the track has been laid and I have begun to hack out the course of the stream.

Under the baseboards the point solenoids have been installed. I'm now working out where to put the uncoupling magnets.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Ruston

[Norton961]

Ruston, if you go to my thread on the Lilishall Company, one of the photos I posted today of its W4 the wagons behind the loco seem to be carrying pit props on old wagons. Have a look and see what you think.

 

David

[Ruston]

I'm not sure if they are pit props or not but I wouldn't have thought they'd have been loaded on flat wagon like that for carriage on the railway companies' lines. The pictures that I have seen show them loaded in what appear to be coal wagons (or could be open merchandise wagons) and tightly packed in vertically, or with long ones, almost diagonally with the ends resting on one end of the wagon.

[Fat Controller]

I'm not sure if they are pit props or not but I wouldn't have thought they'd have been loaded on flat wagon like that for carriage on the railway companies' lines. The pictures that I have seen show them loaded in what appear to be coal wagons (or could be open merchandise wagons) and tightly packed in vertically, or with long ones, almost diagonally with the ends resting on one end of the wagon.

I'd say that was an internal movement, from stacking ground to pithead; there's no way any railway would permit wagons loaded like that on their lines. The most usual way of loading props was to build a 'wall' of vertically-stowed props around the sides and ends, which would effectively make the wagon sides higher, then load the resultant space either cross-ways, or lengthways, with props stowed flat. The wagons used would normally be coal wagons otherwise returning empty.

[Norton961]

I take the point about the Lilishall wagons with pit rops not being allowed on anything but their own system but it shows how they were carried for internal use.

I may have found a better photo of pit props on a BR line in this Torpantau in 1958, showing them loaded in a 16 ton mineral wagon.

The photo was on ebay and I have dited down to the wagon.

 

Also attached a Peckett at Mountain Colliery in 1970 P1113 of 1907

 

.

 

The last photo is Myrther Vale 1970.