Nearholmer Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Yes, SM, my one truly good bargain was a poorly described, and clearly not well investigated by bidders, job lot, which I then split, kept a few things, swapped some for what I really wanted, then sold the rest. Alright if you've got a bit of time on your hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 An auction in lots to appeal to dealers, by the looks of it. It will all dribble back onto the market, over a long period. That's my guess, anyway. I have my eye on a few lots and two of them contain an item that I have never seen for sale retail. I would buy them at a reasonable price just to get the items and would take any thing I can get by flogging the other items as a bonus. Others no doubt will be doing the same but with the aim of making more than they paid. I would think that some of the bulk coach and wagon lots would repay close attention. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The auction has attracted the attention of The Times today. Best not to leave the original price tag on, eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2017 The auction has attracted the attention of The Times today. image.jpg Best not to leave the original price tag on, eh? An original classic car doesn't sell for it's original price, so old price tags mean nothing. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 An original classic car doesn't sell for it's original price, so old price tags mean nothing.... Oh, are you bidding, then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2017 Oh, are you bidding, then? I try to avoid overpriced tat thank you, (which is what most auctions invariably finish up as). Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted January 7, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 7, 2017 Expensive yes. Tat? Definitely not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 The auction has attracted the attention of The Times today. image.jpg Best not to leave the original price tag on, eh? I'm impressed, it's gained 50k in value in a couple of days. It'll be worth 500k by next weekend.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 8, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2017 I'm impressed, it's gained 50k in value in a couple of days. It'll be worth 500k by next weekend.... Yes - rather amusing but presumably somebody looked at top estimates rather than bottom ones. Talking up the numbers could have two potential effects - first it could put off private bidders and actually depress prices as the dealers & Ebayers make hay. But there could be exactly the opposite as a bunch of chancers start thinking 'oh, there's money in this toy trains stuff' and start a bidding frenzy which leads to prices going over the top. It will be interesting to see the final results for the sale but you can at least bet the auctioneer will come out of it around £20,000 better off (unless it totally bombs). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 That's if you are using the saleroom to bid online, the auctioneer's rate is 17.5% if you bidding with them either in the room or on commission. Don't forget too, as Ivan has suggested, that the buyer's premium is subject to VAT at the standard rate (no question of 'may'. it is a service and therefore liable for VAT unless they are quoting an inclusive rate and the auctioneer isn't and the saleroom definitely don't) so there will be that to add on. There will be no VAT on the hammer price as all the lots are from a UK based non-trade seller but in all cases if you are not present to make and takeaway any purchases you will have to pay p&p on whatever lots you buy and if you want it insured that too will be an add-on. I'm still trying to get my head around the costs here. If I make a successful bid of £100 online, this is referred to as the 'hammer price'. On top of that I would have to pay £17.50 to the auctioneer AND a £20.50 buyers premium (presumably to the saleroom) and then there would be £7.60 in VAT (20% of £17.50 + 20% of £20.50). This then means that the cost to me becomes £145.60 plus postage, packing and insurance. Is this correct? It certainly adds up to a substantial premium over the hammer price and something to bear in mind when contemplating a bid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 I'm still trying to get my head around the costs here. If I make a successful bid of £100 online, this is referred to as the 'hammer price'. On top of that I would have to pay £17.50 to the auctioneer AND a £20.50 buyers premium (presumably to the saleroom) and then there would be £7.60 in VAT (20% of £17.50 + 20% of £20.50). This then means that the cost to me becomes £145.60 plus postage, packing and insurance. Is this correct? It certainly adds up to a substantial premium over the hammer price and something to bear in mind when contemplating a bid. That is about the size of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 That is about the size of it. Sounds like a rip off to me have to get items very cheap to make it worth buying. Might go and have a look as it not that far away for me. Have to find out viewing details etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 8, 2017 Share Posted January 8, 2017 Sounds like a rip off to me have to get items very cheap to make it worth buying. Might go and have a look as it not that far away for me. Have to find out viewing details etc. To misquote Dolly Parton, "it costs a lot of money to be this cheap" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2017 I'm still trying to get my head around the costs here. If I make a successful bid of £100 online, this is referred to as the 'hammer price'. On top of that I would have to pay £17.50 to the auctioneer AND a £20.50 buyers premium (presumably to the saleroom) and then there would be £7.60 in VAT (20% of £17.50 + 20% of £20.50). This then means that the cost to me becomes £145.60 plus postage, packing and insurance. Is this correct? It certainly adds up to a substantial premium over the hammer price and something to bear in mind when contemplating a bid. As I understand that's not so, and certainly not the case when bidding at my pal's auctions. If you bid in the room or make a commission bid (which is also via the auctioneer) you pay the auctioneer's buyer's commission of 17.5% on top of the hammer price plus VAT on that commission (plus P&p to send any successful purchases to you or you go and collect). If you bid online via 'the saleroom' you pay their commission rate of 20.5% (which in this case should include the auctioneer's commission of 17.5% but they pay that) and you pay a bit extra on top for using their service, plus VAT on that 20.5% (assuming it works the same way as it does when my pal is auctioning). But whichever way you bid it is always sensible to factor in commission and the VAT on it. Thus if the buyer's commission (also called a premium) is 17,5% I factor in the hammer price plus 20% when I'm making a bid or putting in a commission bid. Nowadays I generally tend to bid on commission and it does have the advantage of not getting involved in 'bidding fever' which can happen if you're in the room or online although it's not necessarily as much fun - but what it does do is let me decide in advance how much I'm prepared to pay for something (I mostly buy postcards nowadays - mainly railway related). the disadvantage of bidding on commission is that you are committed in advance so if you miss on one lot by being well outbid you might also miss on the next one whereas in teh room you might have been prepared to devote some of the money you didn't spend on the lot you lost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I read it as on line bids are 20.5% plus VAT plus P&P. For those who think this dear try Sothebys where it is 25%. But it does deduce when you get into the millions. Looking at some of the lots you would need to see them, as they are very vague in the descriptions. 45 mixed coaches for example with only two or three shown. Some of the locos are very old versions and several improvements behind the current models. Other mixes have been put together with quite a lot of knowledge. One good desirable loco with two that are little value to most people. I can see three or four locos that would be of use, but I would have to buy about ten that would not sell if split for any sort of price. Other than a couple of lots I don't think I will bother and if I can spot those I am sure others with better knowledge will also be looking at them. In the hall it might be worth a punt but on line I think not. I see 18 201 in there if Ivan needs a spare. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 ....I see 18 201 in there if Ivan needs a spare. *kof*What did you think I was looking at!?*kof* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted January 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2017 All the oncosts and poor grouping seem to make my comment in #31 even nmore relevant! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2017 All the oncosts and poor grouping seem to make my comment in #31 even nmore relevant! Mike. The auctioneer has a duty to the client to sell whatever it is for what he considers is the best price he can get and in order to sell very mixed bag collections that means mixed bag lots because if the dross was lotted separately it simply wouldn't sell. The auctioneer also has a (less well defined) duty to potential buyers to offer a reasonable description of the lots and to give realistic estimates of what the lots might sell for although sometimes the latter can be 'adjusted' (usually downwards) in order to encourage bidding. Example - a few years ago an auctioneer where I regularly bought and sold lotted a piece of china at an estimate of £350 - 450; it was a 'come on' estimate in order to encourage bidding and competing commission bids, which effectively start the actual auction, meant the first real bid was £1,000. The piece sold for £2,400. There are what I regard as some 'come on' estimates in this auction but only for some 0 gauge items, I seriously doubt if some of the other lots lots will even reach their bottom estimate (unless you get idiots bidding having been encouraged by press reports). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 I have gone through the lists this morning ,,well as best as the web site will allow , rather poor and not easy to follow. Have to agree the descriptions are not good and a bit vague and if I where interested in any items i personally would not be happy to do any internet bidding and would only bid if I were there in person so that I could determine exactly what I was buying. Having had some experience of these type of dispersal sales I fear that a number of the lots are going to get lumped together as I feel that many will not get any bids in the time allow by auction time pressures which will be a shame for the executors / family. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2017 I have gone through the lists this morning ,,well as best as the web site will allow , rather poor and not easy to follow. Have to agree the descriptions are not good and a bit vague and if I where interested in any items i personally would not be happy to do any internet bidding and would only bid if I were there in person so that I could determine exactly what I was buying. Having had some experience of these type of dispersal sales I fear that a number of the lots are going to get lumped together as I feel that many will not get any bids in the time allow by auction time pressures which will be a shame for the executors / family. I suspect you are right - the interesting things is how far below the bottom estimate the auctioneer will be prepared to go to try and start bidding on any particular lot and it really needs experience of a particular auctioneer to know how they work when the going is tough. Generally internet bidding has the effect of pushing up prices but I wonder if it will for this sale? I don't know so much about time pressure - there are 699 lots and a good auctioneer with a decent lot of bidders should manage about 70-100 per hour, but fewer when the bidding is slow and it gets harder to get it going and that is when lots might start failing to sell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 ....I seriously doubt if some of the other lots lots will even reach their bottom estimate (unless you get idiots bidding having been encouraged by press reports). ....or indeed interest on RMWeb.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 *kof*What did you think I was looking at!?*kof*Funny you say that. You bid and I will relieve you of one or two. Might be worthwhile if just for the drive mechs. They are in my experience rather good runners. A mutual acquaintance once said that it was the slowest steadiest mech he had come across. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted January 9, 2017 Share Posted January 9, 2017 As I understand that's not so, and certainly not the case when bidding at my pal's auctions. If you bid in the room or make a commission bid (which is also via the auctioneer) you pay the auctioneer's buyer's commission of 17.5% on top of the hammer price plus VAT on that commission (plus P&p to send any successful purchases to you or you go and collect). If you bid online via 'the saleroom' you pay their commission rate of 20.5% (which in this case should include the auctioneer's commission of 17.5% but they pay that) and you pay a bit extra on top for using their service, plus VAT on that 20.5% (assuming it works the same way as it does when my pal is auctioning). But whichever way you bid it is always sensible to factor in commission and the VAT on it. Thus if the buyer's commission (also called a premium) is 17,5% I factor in the hammer price plus 20% when I'm making a bid or putting in a commission bid. Nowadays I generally tend to bid on commission and it does have the advantage of not getting involved in 'bidding fever' which can happen if you're in the room or online although it's not necessarily as much fun - but what it does do is let me decide in advance how much I'm prepared to pay for something (I mostly buy postcards nowadays - mainly railway related). the disadvantage of bidding on commission is that you are committed in advance so if you miss on one lot by being well outbid you might also miss on the next one whereas in teh room you might have been prepared to devote some of the money you didn't spend on the lot you lost. Thanks for the clarification. Out of interest, what is the advantage, if any, of paying 20.5% to bid via 'the Saleroom' as opposed to bidding through UK Auctioneers, who seem to have only a 17.5% buyers commission on the same sale? What services are you paying extra for? There's nothing that I really want, but a few lots with something that I'd buy if the price was right. I don't care too much about the excitement as I'll be at work, so live bidding is out. However, I might make a few relatively low bids and if I'm outbid on them all, I wont lose any sleep over it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 9, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2017 Thanks for the clarification. Out of interest, what is the advantage, if any, of paying 20.5% to bid via 'the Saleroom' as opposed to bidding through UK Auctioneers, who seem to have only a 17.5% buyers commission on the same sale? What services are you paying extra for? There's nothing that I really want, but a few lots with something that I'd buy if the price was right. I don't care too much about the excitement as I'll be at work, so live bidding is out. However, I might make a few relatively low bids and if I'm outbid on them all, I wont lose any sleep over it. I've only come across 'the saleroom' which seems to be the most common;y used one and they charge around an additional 3% which covers their service. Incidentally looking at the UK auctioneer site it appears that the 17.5% they quote is simply the auctioneer's commission rate - and I see from that site that there's some far more tasty lots on Day 2. The 'service' in this case is that you are using some of their bandwidth and their software to sit in your own home and bid instead of spending money getting to the auction (but you still need to pay to get whatever you buy to your front door, however you do it). I know a number of people who actually prefer online bidding but what it does require is considerable trust in the auctioneer giving you a very exact description of the lots you are interested in - which most, I think, will do in response to questions for greater detail than the catalogue shows. One thing with buying model railway lots is that you are taking 'runability' on spec and auctioneers don't usually test it so it can be a gamble. Some years ago I bought a kitbuilt loco which was an absolutely disaster when it came to moving itself let alone a train although I got my money back when I sold it on to someone who actually wanted a non-runner although i have had some excellent ones - just the luck of the draw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungrange Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 Okay, I've registered with UK Auctioneers. It appears that you can elect to either pay 3% on top of the auctioneers commission of 17.5% when participating in a live auction, or a flat fee of £3.95 also on top of the auctioneers commission. Interestingly, their terms and conditions state that they are not VAT registered, so that means that there will be no VAT on their fee, but since they permit free bids (ie you only pay their premium when using their bandwidth for live bidding) that's possibly not a great saving. VAT will obviously still apply to the auctioneers commission. Anyway, I'll probably place a few bids later although I'll probably not win any of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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