Estate agent advice

[cromptonnut]

Hi all

 

Wondered if anyone here was familiar with estate agents and in particular their tricks.

 

We have been looking at a property since October.  We went for a first view with the agent in October, and the asking price was £229,950.

 

We have been in regular communication with the agent as we've been waiting for some inheritance money to come through which arrived this week (we were expecting it several months ago, hence the delay), so we knew for sure that we had enough money for a deposit to go with the mortgage application (of which we have had a pre-approval, and an appointment to do the proper application this week).

 

Last week, we went for a second viewing and met the owners, had a nice long chat, all was well and we felt that now was a good time to make an offer.

 

It's been on the market since April, and it's had 18 viewings so far including our two, a price reduction, a change of agent.  But no takers.  Potentially various reasons I don't need to go into here but none of those possible reasons are an issue to us.

 

So reading up on the subject and knowing that agents always overprice, we made an offer of £225,000 which we felt was fair. (98% of what we thought was the asking price, most offers are 5-10% below)

 

The agent then comes back and says the offer has been declined, because the asking price went up to £235,000 somewhere between our visits, but during our conversations not once has he mentioned it to us.

 

He feels it's actually worth £245k or thereabouts, which I don't understand because if he thinks it's worth that much, why isn't it on the market for that much, and if it's not sold for £229950 why does he think he can get another £15k for it?

 

Yes, "the market has changed" in the fact that property in the area around that price bracket at the lower end of the market are few and far between, however doesn't he have an obligation to make us aware that the goalposts have changed when we've been in regular contact every couple of weeks?  If we'd known it had been price increased to what is essentially just beyond our reach unless I sell a kidney, we wouldn't have made the second visit and an offer.

 

In one breath he's saying the house isn't really "on the market" at the moment and they're just marketing it low key (it doesn't appear on their website) yet on the other he then says he has been advertising it at the higher price to those who have been looking in that price bracket.

 

Is this just "the way things are" when it comes to property (both of us first time buyers) and you just have to play the game, are we being played to try and make a higher offer than it really should be, or is he just incompetent?

 

Given that the house has been on the market since April 2016 through two agents, the couple have young mixed twins and need to move so the children have separate bedrooms, and the price dropped from £235k to £229950 last year ... I don't understand why he thinks increasing the price is going to help it sell.  I know that the seller wants the highest bid (and of course the agent so he gets his percentage) and the buyer wants the lowest bid - but something just seems a bit strange for all this to suddenly happen now that we have made an offer.  We could be the only people who have made an offer and shown an interest, so why mess us about?

 

Thoughts anyone?

[Trevellan]

Back in 2013 I used an agency whose method was to advertise properties at a price some way below the vendor's target, just to obtain interest. Then, with more than one potential buyer in the frame, they would initiate what amounted to an auction. My former home was sold within four days, but then the agent and their recommended solicitors became somewhat tardy in their responses. I obtained my target price, but felt uncomfortable with the agency and their methods.

[Kiwi]

"Something strange"...... not really. But probably not smart either.

 

He's the sellers agent, not yours, so will want to get the best deal for them he can. They may also have high expectations. That's a common failing of sellers. Your looking for logic and sense from the response. Don't, it's a battle of wills.

 

Ultimately they're challenging your resolve, hoping to squeeze more out of you. It's up to you how you respond. Are you willing to walk away from the purchase at your current offer? They're gambling on no.

 

I'm a contrary b****r so would probably drop my offer lower in response. But my wife might have formed an emotional bond to the property so encourage me to cave in!

[cromptonnut]

We both very much like the property, it ticks a lot of boxes on our "wish list" - it's about a 10 minute walk to the station so very commutable, and the railway line runs along the back garden... win win

 

You are right, it is a bit like a game of poker, and I don't understand it really.  If something has a price, that's it's price.  You wouldn't go into Tesco and pick up a chicken marked £4 and then offer the checkout assistant £3.50 for it.  If it has a price, it has a price.  I shouldn't have to haggle.

 

We are prepared to go to £229950 - but as you say, the seller often has high expectations and agents fuel that high expectation because when they are on a percentage they get more money.  There should be a flat rate fee for these things, after all a home isn't really a "luxury item" is it?

[Zomboid]

Do you absolutely have to have that house? I would just leave your offer on the table and look for somewhere else. If the market is really that disinterested in the place they might realise that your offer is the best they'll get and accept. Or some other fool will come along and overpay.

If you find somewhere you do want and that will accept your offer in the meantime then you win - you have all the cards at the moment.

[cromptonnut]

No, we don't have to have that house, we are very flexible in where we end up (and where we currently live, £200k might just buy you a park home or a one bedroom town centre flat over a takeaway) but we do really like that house and that area.  As I said, it ticks a lot of boxes and meets our needs - but it won't be the only one out there.

 

I think part of the problem is the agent, as most of the homes they sell seem to be in the £400k+ bracket, and there's little to nothing under that.  Other agents covering the area do, but I'm guessing that their "target demographic" isn't looking for somewhere as small and cheap as we are.

 

But it was listed on Zoopla and Rightmove, so it wasn't only people contacting that agent who would have stumbled across it, in fact that was how we found it in the first place.

[beast66606]

Tell them the most you can pay is your offer, don't say "prepared to pay" as that implies if something was different you would pay more - just say thats your final offer and it was based on the price the property was advertised at when your interest was aroused. Walk away and wait, you have no assurance they won't up the price again even if you did increase your offer.  The vendor may accept your offer to get rid, or they may hold on for more - house sales/buying/moving is said to be one of the most stressful parts of life, and not without good reason.

 

Last year I sold my old house and while the property sold without much trouble the estate agents were not exactly dynamic, the house sold despite them rather than because of them - expect some more "What the flip ?" moments during the process.

[Mike Bellamy]

Do you know if the agent actually passed on your offer to the vendor - or was it just the agent's opinion that the offer was too low. Perhaps the agent realised how keen you were because you said you had kept in touch with them and if you had mentioned the inheritance then that could be why they are trying to get a bit more from you. You could go back and say that because of the long delay in settling the estate, the amount you received was less than expected and so you are at the maximum you can afford and see what their reaction is.

 

.

[Guest]

You say you had a second viewing and met the owners. Are they living at the property or elsewhere? If they're living in the property, I would be tempted to knock at the door and along the lines of "Remember me?", would ask the owners to clarify. The owners of the property are, after all, the ones who should know what price they will and won't accept. You may be treading on the agent's toes, but they'll get over it...

[cromptonnut]

We met the owners at the property, and we have their number as it was suggested we talk to them directly rather than bouncing emails back and forth as we had a number of questions that were more easily dealt with in a conversation.

 

I have been tempted to ring the owners and talk directly, but during this "negotiation" stage I don't want to upset anyone.

 

We're going to see what the mortgage advisor says on Thursday as she's more likely to have come across this sort of thing before - we're noobs when it comes to this kinda thing.

 

I do like the idea of 'inheritance less than expected, take it or leave it' though.

 

Pete - it's a 150 mile round trip so "just popping over" isn't that easy

[28XX]

Stick to your guns. Don't cave in. Perhaps you have unwittingly told the agent more about your financial situation than was advisable. He's trying to screw you.

[Joseph_Pestell]

We both very much like the property, it ticks a lot of boxes on our "wish list" - it's about a 10 minute walk to the station so very commutable, and the railway line runs along the back garden... win win

 

You are right, it is a bit like a game of poker, and I don't understand it really.  If something has a price, that's it's price.  You wouldn't go into Tesco and pick up a chicken marked £4 and then offer the checkout assistant £3.50 for it.  If it has a price, it has a price.  I shouldn't have to haggle.

 

We are prepared to go to £229950 - but as you say, the seller often has high expectations and agents fuel that high expectation because when they are on a percentage they get more money.  There should be a flat rate fee for these things, after all a home isn't really a "luxury item" is it?

Is the railway at the bottom of the garden in a cutting? If not, that is in itself a reason to seek a reduced price. You may like it but most people don't and it will make it harder for you to resell the house.

 

With regard to the price, the vendors have got to buy elsewhere (for more bedrooms) and prices have generally gone up. So, in relative terms, they lose out if they do not sell for more than the April 2016 price. They would probably be better advised to extend the property.

 

Looked at from an agent's viewpoint (got the tee-shirt), a small increase in the price does not usually make that much difference to the fee. So an agent would always rather sell easily and quickly than maximise the fee and have it on the books for a long time. That in itself creates a conflict of interest and vendors should be careful that the deal they make with an agent incentivises the agent to get the best price possible.

 

Went to look at a house yesterday on behalf of a friend. Way overpriced and I wonder why the agents (very experienced) are wasting their time with vendors who have a totally unrealistic expectation.

[jjb1970]

Something to keep in mind is that this is about money, the sellers wants to maximise the sale price, the buyer wants to minimise it and to get a sale the two parties have to meet somewhere acceptable to both. As with anything else, a house is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. You could say your house is worth a million pounds but if the most anybody would pay for it is £100,000 then it’s worth £100,000 whatever we might like to think. These things follow the market. When the market is down buyers are wearing the boot and can drive hard deals. When the market is up the seller tends to have the boot, if you don’t want it then somebody else will. A lot depends on whether the seller needs to sell. If they need to sell (for example if they’re emigrating, can’t keep up mortgage payments, have to relocate for work) then they’ll have to be realistic and consider what buyers are willing to pay. If they don’t have to sell then they can just decide to wait for the market to pick up and have another go later. There is no sentiment in this.

On estate agents, I’m not a fan. They’re supposed to work for the buyer but I’ve viewed houses where the estate agent has told me the circumstances of the buyer and how low they would go to get a quick sale as all they want is the house off their books and the commission in the bank. I’ve used their services as a seller and been equally unimpressed. As with any line of business there are good and bad but the bad ones tend to be the ones you remember. My former employer moved from London to Southampton (hence the “former”) and they used one of the large national chains to assist with the relocation package and I can’t honestly say I spoke to anybody who did decide to move who wasn’t utterly contemptuous of that particular estate agent.

In this case I'd talk to the vendor directly. Tell them the offer is what it is and that if they want to sell then that's what they'll pay. If it isn't enough for them then that is fair enough (the seller is no more wrong in refusing an offer than the buyer is in making one) and move on to look at other places. If you desperately want that house then it's for you to decide if it is worth paying more, only you can decide that.

[cromptonnut]

Is the railway at the bottom of the garden in a cutting? If not, that is in itself a reason to seek a reduced price. You may like it but most people don't and it will make it harder for you to resell the house.

 

My photo, taken from the bedroom window.  A similar shot appears on the estate agent's leaflet.

 

 

The proximity of the railway line shouldn't therefore be a surprise to prospective purchasers.

 

We are intending this to be our "rest of our lives" home so selling in the future isn't something that concerns us.

[Guest]

Pete - it's a 150 mile round trip so "just popping over" isn't that easy.

 

I have been tempted to ring the owners and talk directly, but during this "negotiation" stage I don't want to upset anyone.

 

I didn't realise you were relocating out of the same area. Fair point!

 

I do totally understand your desire to do things "properly"... the first couple of properties we bought to renovate and resell were done by the book. I have since then upset some agents so I'm probably not the best person to offer advice.

 

The first time we upset an estate agent was abroad. Unluckily for us, the villa we were interested in was being marketed by an agent known locally as "awkward". The agent informed us in no uncertain terms that questions regarding the property were to be directed through the agent, not the vendor, which rather got up my nose. We were then accompanied to the property by the agent and met a very nice young couple who laid on the Spanish version of "tea and biscuits". We got on well. They practised their English and we practised our Spanish, kids made a fuss of their dogs etc. This appeared to upset the agent enormously. By chance I bumped into the seller in town a few days later and we went for a beer. It was "suggested" that if we were interested, the seller could save a bundle on fees and we could get the property at a considerable discount. Independent legal advice etc etc etc and a couple of months later the villa was ours and buyer and seller very happy. The one person not at all happy was the agent and they kicked up a Hell of a fuss. It took my "new best friend", the seller, popping into the estate agent's office to calm the situation down. By luck, he was a rather senior gun-toting Guardia Civil officer and no more was heard!

 

Please don't think I'm suggesting you do things anything other than "properly" but in my experience of estate agents both at home and abroad, they don't give a monkey's about the buyer or the seller and are not unknown to adopt some unsavoury tactics to maximise their commission.

[Joseph_Pestell]

My photo, taken from the bedroom window.  A similar shot appears on the estate agent's leaflet.

 

IMG_1209.jpg

 

The proximity of the railway line shouldn't therefore be a surprise to prospective purchasers.

 

We are intending this to be our "rest of our lives" home so selling in the future isn't something that concerns us.

I have an idea that the agent may be one of the major national chains. No names, no pack drill, but no agent worth his salt would put that photo in the particulars.

 

You may wish to live there until the end of your days but circumstances can dictate otherwise. And you heirs would have to sell even if you make it to the end, so resale always has to be considered.

 

As much as you may like it, a railway that close to the house will be the reason that it has been difficult to sell. If you really want the house, speak direct to the vendors and make clear that your offer is final. As you put in the OP, it is close to the original asking price and they have not found any other buyer at that price.

 

Pete's case is a bit different. Exclusive agency deals are rarer abroad and it is easy for an agent to lose out on his commission. It does not happen here.

[Dunsignalling]

We met the owners at the property, and we have their number as it was suggested we talk to them directly rather than bouncing emails back and forth as we had a number of questions that were more easily dealt with in a conversation.

 

I have been tempted to ring the owners and talk directly, but during this "negotiation" stage I don't want to upset anyone.

 

We're going to see what the mortgage advisor says on Thursday as she's more likely to have come across this sort of thing before - we're noobs when it comes to this kinda thing.

 

I do like the idea of 'inheritance less than expected, take it or leave it' though.

 

Pete - it's a 150 mile round trip so "just popping over" isn't that easy

 

There certainly don't seem to be other interested parties judging from your earlier posts, which reinforces your thought that the agent is more up-market than the property and either he/she and/or the vendors are kite-flying.

 

$64,000 question: do you want this house badly enough to put up with being messed about by the agent or are you are prepared to "walk"? 

 

If you are, just restate your offer but add a deadline after which it will be withdrawn, two weeks should be enough to concentrate minds. This only works if you mean what you say, there is no coming back (unless you subsequently make a lower one, which has occasionally been known to succeed). 

 

Copies to both the vendor and the agent to ensure they are both aware straight away.

 

 

John

[cromptonnut]

No, it's not a national chain, it's a local independent agent.  But a similar photo is definitely there. 

 

The house has also been there for over 100 years so it's not a "new build".  They are ex-railway workers cottages and advertised as such, in fact the end of "our" garden, according to old maps, used to be the Up Goods Loop headshunt

[teaky]

I like the sound of Dunsignalling's advice.  A deadline would concentrate their minds.  (It's the same sales technique used by furniture stores in their TV adverts where you have until Sunday to make your mind up.)

 

Can you think of any additional positives that would strengthen your case?  For example, if you are currently renting or can afford to buy without necessarily selling your current house then there is no chain after you and that is a major strength.  If you are flexible on moving dates that helps.  Simply having all the finances in place (i.e. mortgage offers from your lender) is a positive.  If you sit down and think things through I'm sure you'll come up with a few points.  Don't over do the length of the list but put these in writing along with restating your offer and the decision deadline and accept that this is the best you can do.

 

Whatever you do, don't trust the estate agent!  They are definitely not working for you and in some cases it is questionable whether they are working for the seller.  A few years ago I was shown around a couple of houses by an agent who revealed details about the sellers which I considered unprofessional (not personal details but real reasons for sale and urgency etc.).  I did not make use of this information in the end as we bought somewhere else but the agents were firmly crossed off my list of companies to consider next time we sell.

[cromptonnut]

We've already said that we are renting and not in a chain, have pre-approval for the mortgage (why you have to have an offer accepted before being sure you can get the money is beyond me but hey...) and are prepared to give them time to find the right place for them so I'm not sure what (apart from offering more) we can do to secure the place.

 

An interesting comparison to the perpetual DFS sale though...

[hayfield]

If this is to be a long term investment and in an area you want to live in, what's the problem ? The past two houses we have bought we have paid the asking price for the first one and got less than 1% knocked off the latest one, and to be quite honest would have paid the full price for the latest one.

 

If you don't buy this one the chances are that you will have to pay more anyway. In the previous move both estate agents tried it on, this time the agent selling the house could not have been more helpful, The one selling our house was a typical estate agent. But in the end it took 10 weeks between putting the house on the market and moving.

 

The only issue I can see is for me a big one, why is it so cheap/no one else wants it. Over time the position of our previous house became very desirable, this aided us greatly in moving so quickly. Thankfully we think we have replicated the desirability factor again, we don't plan to move again, but you never know.

 

If it does tick all your boxes, then either go and see the sellers or give them a phone call . Have a very honest chat with them and don't forget the longer the sale takes the more expensive their (and your) new house will be., if you do nothing then nothing will happen, you may loose the property to someone else.

 

Lets face it if it costs £5,000 more, then it does, you may have to split the difference. On the other hand if you can move straight away, sellers want buyers who can move

[BG John]

Could you phone the sellers to ask a couple of questions about non money related things you've discussed with them. Then casually ask if they got your offer, without putting any pressure on them to reply. Then it's up to them if they want to discuss it further. They might be more open to talking about it if you haven't applied any pressure. If the agent doesn't like it, it was the people he's working for who went behind his back, not you.

[hayfield]

We've already said that we are renting and not in a chain, have pre-approval for the mortgage (why you have to have an offer accepted before being sure you can get the money is beyond me but hey...) and are prepared to give them time to find the right place for them so I'm not sure what (apart from offering more) we can do to secure the place.

 

 

 

Simple, pay the asking price.

 

Or at least get talking to the sellers. If its the estate agents getting in the way by pass them. If the sellers cannot move unless they get the full price, then they cannot move. If the house is not worth the extra then don't buy and find something else. Perhaps get the estate agent to book alternative viewings, that may send a different message to the sellers. Just do something

[teaky]

We've already said that we are renting and not in a chain, have pre-approval for the mortgage (why you have to have an offer accepted before being sure you can get the money is beyond me but hey...) and are prepared to give them time to find the right place for them so I'm not sure what (apart from offering more) we can do to secure the place.

 

An interesting comparison to the perpetual DFS sale though...

Apologies, missed some info. there.  It wouldn't hurt to put it in writing though, making sure the seller gets a copy.  That way you are certain all the information has been passed on.

 

Being the end of the chain is a major strength.  Don't underestimate it.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 I don't want to upset anyone.

 

 

You seem quite willing to let the estate agent upset you, so sod him, it's a a quarter of a million pounds you are spending, start kicking arses, if dealing with the sellers direct gets results then do it, go to the estate agents mob handed with the sellers and present him with a fait accompli, this is what we've decided, deal with it. The agent is acting in no ones best interests, not even his own.

 

Mike.