RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted March 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Hi Rich, No I never knew any of that. I cant find where to adjust the F No as yet, and there's nothing in the book, it shows F5.6 and ISO 400 but I can't seem to find adjustments for eirther, I'm off to do a Google search now to see if I can find out more info. The Fuji went up to F13.5 and that's what I used for close up work on a Tripod or stand, Hi Andy, Ok, firstly - if you get stuck anytime - feel free to PM me I'm more than happy to help. Yes, keeping the F stop as high as possible is the best thing for model photography. GPS Secondly, a wider point that doesn't apply to the Canon SX420 camera you have, but might to others reading this. Many smaller cameras now come with GPS. This writes the location of the camera into every image you take (down to about 2-3 meters). Thats great when your out walking the dog or on holiday and want to know where you were when you took the picture, but for model photography we're into a dodgy area - obviously if you put a picture on rmWeb anyone (including those devious little devils who like taking things that aren't theirs) viewing that can plot the position of the camera on Google Maps very easily and find out the location of your layout, and shed. Im assuming that like me, you won't want that! My advice is to either turn it off totally (unless your away on holiday) or depending what software you use to manage your pictures it can be removed. I use Adobe Lightroom and one of the export options is to 'Remove Location Data from EXIF' which I always tick and it takes all the info out. Initial Settings I've downloaded the Manual for your camera and had a wander through it. Firstly, make sure the image Resolution setting (Page 37 in the manual) is set to Large to give you the best pictures, and that the video mode (if your going to take videos with it) is set to HD (Page 38). Unless you specifically have reason to do so, resist the temptation to go lower than those two settings 'just to get more on the card' you'll end up with lower quality images that are like postage stamps!! Model Photography settings Have a look at P54 of the Manual, it shows that you have a Macro function, as it doesn't appear you can alter the Aperture (F Stop) setting manually on that camera, that might help with model railway photography - specifically anything that is close-up. The camera is more auto biased aimed at point and shoot - which is fine. You've said about the ISO setting (P51 tells you how to change it), try and keep that around the 200/400 mark if possible, 800 as a maximum. Its all trial and error, but on most modern camera's anything above 800 will get noisy, because the image sensor is getting hotter taking the picture (very basic explanation!). A few years back 400 was the maximum, but digital technology is improving all the time! Also just watch if your ever using the flash, as you may find it bounces off the lens when extended and gives you a shadow on the bottom of the image. Brief background If your not aware, ISO, Shutter Speed and Aperture all work together. Lets say that with ISO at 200 In very basic terms, the shuttle speed is the speed at which the shutter fires, the higher that goes up, the lower the Aperture comes down and it all depends on the amount of light available. When your in lower light, the same still happens but you'll be on very low shutter speeds which could introduce camera shake if your not using a tripod - sometimes even when you are, on longer exposures you can get shake when you press the shuttle button. So the answer is to get more light into the camera, the way to do this is to increase the ISO speed, in essence that makes the camera run quicker gaining you a little bit of light. If you were photographing outdoors on a gorgeous sunny day, perfect light is 1/1000th of a second (Shutter) at F8 (Aperture) at ISO200. A cloudy overcast day is more 1/640th or 1/800th of a second at F6.3 on ISO640/800! Obviously come inside and the light level drops again, as cameras see light generated by bulbs and tubes different to daylight. Hope the above is of use to you - don't want to hijack your thread so feel free to PM me if you've any queries mate. Rich Edited March 18, 2017 by MarshLane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 (edited) Hi Andy, Ok, firstly - if you get stuck anytime - feel free to PM me I'm more than happy to help. Yes, keeping the F stop as high as possible is the best thing for model photography. GPS Secondly, a wider point that doesn't apply to the Canon SX420 camera you have, but might to others reading this. Many smaller cameras now come with GPS. This writes the location of the camera into every image you take (down to about 2-3 meters). Thats great when your out walking the dog or on holiday and want to know where you were when you took the picture, but for model photography we're into a dodgy area - obviously if you put a picture on rmWeb anyone (including those devious little devils who like taking things that aren't theirs) viewing that can plot the position of the camera on Google Maps very easily and find out the location of your layout, and shed. Im assuming that like me, you won't want that! My advice is to either turn it off totally (unless your away on holiday) or depending what software you use to manage your pictures it can be removed. I use Adobe Lightroom and one of the export options is to 'Remove Location Data from EXIF' which I always tick and it takes all the info out. Initial Settings I've downloaded the Manual for your camera and had a wander through it. Firstly, make sure the image Resolution setting (Page 37 in the manual) is set to Large to give you the best pictures, and that the video mode (if your going to take videos with it) is set to HD (Page 38). Unless you specifically have reason to do so, resist the temptation to go lower than those two settings 'just to get more on the card' you'll end up with lower quality images that are like postage stamps!! Model Photography settings Have a look at P54 of the Manual, it shows that you have a Macro function, as it doesn't appear you can alter the Aperture (F Stop) setting manually on that camera, that might help with model railway photography - specifically anything that is close-up. The camera is more auto biased aimed at point and shoot - which is fine. You've said about the ISO setting (P51 tells you how to change it), try and keep that around the 200/400 mark if possible, 800 as a maximum. Its all trial and error, but on most modern camera's anything above 800 will get noisy, because the image sensor is getting hotter taking the picture (very basic explanation!). A few years back 400 was the maximum, but digital technology is improving all the time! Also just watch if your ever using the flash, as you may find it bounces off the lens when extended and gives you a shadow on the bottom of the image. Brief background If your not aware, ISO, Shutter Speed and Aperture all work together. Lets say that with ISO at 200 In very basic terms, the shuttle speed is the speed at which the shutter fires, the higher that goes up, the lower the Aperture comes down and it all depends on the amount of light available. When your in lower light, the same still happens but you'll be on very low shutter speeds which could introduce camera shake if your not using a tripod - sometimes even when you are, on longer exposures you can get shake when you press the shuttle button. So the answer is to get more light into the camera, the way to do this is to increase the ISO speed, in essence that makes the camera run quicker gaining you a little bit of light. If you were photographing outdoors on a gorgeous sunny day, perfect light is 1/1000th of a second (Shutter) at F8 (Aperture) at ISO200. A cloudy overcast day is more 1/640th or 1/800th of a second at F6.3 on ISO640/800! Obviously come inside and the light level drops again, as cameras see light generated by bulbs and tubes different to daylight. Hope the above is of use to you - don't want to hijack your thread so feel free to PM me if you've any queries mate. Rich Thanks Rich, I've done one set pf pics with a 400 ISO and Med pic size, I then tried 1600 ISO and didn't like them so now I've increased the picture size and reduced the ISO back to 400 so I'm off out to give that a try. I down loaded the Manual earlier but it means Bu66er all to me, but your explanation of ISO etc are a great help, so thanks. I'll post the pics shortly. Edited March 18, 2017 by Andrew P 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john flann Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Join the CLUB Andy, that's why I stick to "point and shoot" and let the camera do all the clever stuff. All my published images are taken in that manner. They don't look too bad either! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 O.K. Pics time, firstly my original settings both with 400 ISO but with the largest picture size in the second set. Now with the largest picture size, both sets reduced to fit R M Web. With this second set, I've just done a point and shoot try. 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john flann Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Better Andy, it takes a lot of trial and error to get it right. Persistence pays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Good luck with the camera and in particular the Wi-Fi, I'm still unable to get mine working on wi-fi over a year later but then me and technology, it says it all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Good luck with the camera and in particular the Wi-Fi, I'm still unable to get mine working on wi-fi over a year later but then me and technology, it says it all. Thanks Mike, I can't see me needing the Wi Fi, so at the moment I'm not to worried. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 I think if you enable GPS, even when the camera is switched off, it consumes some of the battery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 I think if you enable GPS, even when the camera is switched off, it consumes some of the battery. I recon your right Peter, luckily mine hasn't got GPS, Its got Crabs, Rickets, Scurvey, and the Dropps but luckily NO GPS. Hahhaha Good to see you back again Peter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Here's a selection using 200 ISO, and Auto which varies it between 400 and 800 ISO. And this was taken on a manual setting. And this on Auto. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted March 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2017 O.K. Pics time, firstly my original settings both with 400 ISO but with the largest picture size in the second set. New Camera Test 001.JPG Looking good Andy! When you have five minutes (if the manual makes sense to you ) I'd be interested to see a shot similar to No. 001 - the first one you posted, taken in Macro mode. You'll have noted there is a very shallow depth of field - it looses sharpness very quickly, thats because the Aperture (the F Stop) was on F3.5, ideally if you can find anyway of getting that to F8 or above (preferably F10 or above) I think you might find your happier with the outcomes. But as ever, as long as your happy thats all that matters!! Nice colour off the camera tho. Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 O.K. Rich, Your wish is my command. Firstly Manual setting, 200 ISO and Macro. Auto Setting and Macro. Manual Setting 400 ISO and Macro Auto Setting which gave me 640 ISO and Macro. Some Long Shots without Macro. Manual 200 ISO Auto Setting and it gave me 400 ISO Manual Setting and 400 ISO Auto Setting and 400 ISO Interesting. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted March 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2017 Hi Andy, Oooh interesting, I'd have thought the Macro setting would have handled that a bit better than it has. But I suppose its more designed for flowers and the like which are at an even depth than photography. For my opinion, I'd stick to Auto around 400ISO, and if you can find away of keeping the F stop as high as possible, that will give you the best outcome. Thanks for taking the time to do that. Really nice shed scene! Rich Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Hi Andy, Oooh interesting, I'd have thought the Macro setting would have handled that a bit better than it has. But I suppose its more designed for flowers and the like which are at an even depth than photography. For my opinion, I'd stick to Auto around 400ISO, and if you can find away of keeping the F stop as high as possible, that will give you the best outcome. Thanks for taking the time to do that. Really nice shed scene! Rich Yes Rich, 400 and Auto looks to be the best all round. I'll leave it on that for tomorrow and see how the pics end up. Thanks for your help mate. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
67A Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Honestly I can hardly tell the difference in the various camera settings, I would love to understand them all but I just use Auto or Sport however with Rich (Marsh Lane's) tutorial I a very tempted to tinker with mine later - the camera that is! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 Evening all, well a great day at the Nottingham Show, and a good test of the Camera, I wasn't to sure about it to begin with, but after trying many settings I started to get some better results. An early morning shot at 400 ISO and picture size set at Large on Manual Mode, I'm still disappointed that the fence on the far Platform is blurred. And then using the Auto ISO and Shoot setting, a lot happier. 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 37 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Superb pictures Andy. Both of your layout and the show today. Think I must invest in a decent camera and take some lessons from Rich. Unfortunately camera settings go right over the top my head. Cheers Marcus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
emt_911 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Some cracking photos from the last couple of days mate. One request though. Can you slow down with building layouts that end up in the magazines? My wallet is getting hit quite hard with the different ones you get published in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KNP Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 One thing to clarify with your pictures did the flash fire? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 Cheers Marcus and Duncan, Firstly Marcus, I'm totally confused by the Camera now, not 100% the pic quality is even as good as the Fuji, that was 7.1 Mega Pixel compared to 20 on the new one. Also I cant adjust the F Settings, which although it seems a pain / disadvantage but I need to keep playing with it. Duncan, Your O.K. until the June Edition, due out early May, for Pencarne. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
50030 Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 A great looking layout Andrew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 One thing to clarify with your pictures did the flash fire? No Kevin, but I did keep the Flash Lid closed and wouldn't want to blind the operators, I never tend to use Flash at Home or at Shows, I adjust any brightness as required on the Computer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew P Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 A great looking layout Andrew. Thanks Neil for looking in, I'm glad you will like it, and there will be some more Blue pics soon and having bought a Sound Chip for my 31 today and had my Western one re blown as a 20 both via Leggoman at the Nottingham Show. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MarshLane Posted March 19, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2017 (edited) Superb pictures Andy. Both of your layout and the show today. Think I must invest in a decent camera and take some lessons from Rich. Unfortunately camera settings go right over the top my head. Cheers Marcus Feel free to shout anytime mate if I can help Love photography and can talk about it till the cows come home ... well at until the bar closes anyway!! Cheers Marcus and Duncan, Firstly Marcus, I'm totally confused by the Camera now, not 100% the pic quality is even as good as the Fuji, that was 7.1 Mega Pixel compared to 20 on the new one. Also I cant adjust the F Settings, which although it seems a pain / disadvantage but I need to keep playing with it. Duncan, Your O.K. until the June Edition, due out early May, for Pencarne. Andy, you could be right, but I think the picture quality is all down to the F stop setting. The camera that you've got is aimed at the point and shoot market, where as really I would alway suggest that anyone doing model railway photography goes for one that at least has a A and S setting, usually those will have a Manual (M) setting as well which gives you complete control. I don't want to say that I think you might be disappointed with it, because obviously if your happy then thats fine, but ideally you do need to be able to change the F-Stop (A) setting yourself. I don't want to hijack anything, but as an example this 08 was taken on f1.8: where as this view, I know its a slightly different angle, was taken on F9. The depth of view in the latter one - the point where it starts to loose focus is far further back, because the lens is open wider. I think thats the feature your missing at the moment. Hope I'm not talking out of turn! Out of the three settings I've talked about Shutter, Aperture and ISO, for model railway photography, Aperture is the most critical, followed by ISO, then Shutter - assuming the train is stopped! If the train is moving then the latter two swap round! EDIT: I forgot to mention - you talk about the picture quality Andy - bear in mind that 70% of what you see is down to the quality of lens and the lens settings, the remaining 30% is the sensor. Im simplifying things a lot here, but in essence there are only two things you'll really see with the 20MP sensor over the 7.1MP, that is a larger file size, and far better definition in the areas that are in focus. For what we are doing, taking snaps and putting them on the web, the latter might not be too noticeable unless you crop images in and really look at them with a fine eye at 80-100% magnification. If they were going for publication in a magazine then the difference would definitely be noticed! Hope I've not confused you Rich Edited March 19, 2017 by MarshLane Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gismorail Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Hi Andy see you have a very flash camera mate ........'All the gear and no idea' sorry couldn't resist that one ......but have enjoyed your photo's ....can understand your annoyance with blurred background like the fence that you mentioned earlier. It seems to be a common problem with pictures on model railways and I have never worked out wherever it's the fault of the digital tech bit or indoor photography to be honest ..be interested to hear your feelings on the camera after a couple of months trails .....best of luck and keep up the interesting threads cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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