So exactly what did BR Electric Blue look like?

[stovepipe]

These photos are rather useful.

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h428ee7c

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h30f078

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h68040c4b

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h63c1efc8

 

Either they are all electric blue or none of them are!

Edited May 24, 2017 by stovepipe

[New Haven Neil]

That is the same photo!

[stovepipe]

That is the same photo!

One of them is yes, your link was to a slideshow. My links are to the other photos of the same group of locos which you hadn't mentioned.

Edited May 24, 2017 by stovepipe

[101]

One of them is yes, your link was to a slideshow. My links are to the other photos of the same group of locos which you hadn't mentioned.

I'm afraid to say they all come up as the same photo to me as well

[stovepipe]

Works fine for me, they​ are clearly different link names so rather puzzling.

[New Haven Neil]

Regardless, the AL6 is electric blue!

[sandwich station]

Have a look at https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/15734898347/in/album-72157648664106321/ .

 

Now I know all about screen adjustment, and not trusting what you see - but the centre locomotive in this group of three is definitely not the same colour as the other two.

 

Received knowledge is that all of the LMR 25kv electric locos; (the ALs); were painted Electric Blue - but it would seem that the various manufacturers interpreted this with some degree of approximation !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

If you move two pics to the right, you will find that E3050 is the same colour as E3028 and the loco next to it shows the same darkness as E3050 in the original pic you quote.

Edited May 24, 2017 by sandwich station

[50A55B]

These photos are rather useful.

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h428ee7c

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h30f078

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h68040c4b

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h63c1efc8

 

Either they are all electric blue or none of them are!

I would suggest the last photo shows a subtle difference between the two. I've not seen anything to convince me that any AL6 was painted 'electric blue'. 86259 Les Ross has been painted 'electric blue' and looks utterly wrong.

At the end of the day it's your model and you are free do do whatever you wish.

[Clive Mortimore]

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that Brian Haresanpe wrote in 1965 that the new AL6 locomotives were being delivered in the new BR blue. As far as I am aware they were never Electric blue.

 

Brian Haresnape was a contemporary author of many railway subjects but his best works relate to the changes in liveries carried by all types of BR vehicles. If my memory is correct he had worked as part of the BR design team so I trust his writing of the time than 50 year old slides and prints.

[BrushVeteran]

I remember having a conversation with Brian Haresnape and Alec Swain at the Model Railway Exhibition at the Central Hall, Westminster in either 1968 or 69, regarding BR blue, as at the time I wanted to paint some existing models in the livery and as I remember Humbrol had not yet introduced that colour to their range. I remember also that I was told that Rail Blue was changed in pigment and the way it was applied, as well as the base coats used, with most applications ending up brushed on to increase the thickness to make it more durable through washing plants. He also referred to the earlier shade as Monastral Blue, more akin to what was used in the XP64 demonstration train, and that had been used on all blue repaints since 1966 up until the time we met when variations in methods of application were adopted.  Electric Blue was also discussed at the time as I wanted to clarify the correct shade Tri-ang had used on their Brush Type 2 model of D5578, which I had purchased some years previously. He advised me to contact Brush Traction, which I duly did with his assistance, and in return they supplied me with colour swatches of both D5578 which was painted in French Blue and D5579 Bronze Gold, both these shades being on Foochow's paint reference chart, being also BR's preferred supplier of paint during the 1960's. Both of these colours became Electric Blue and Golden Ochre respectively in BR's livery register but the official names for these colours were that of the paint manufacturer.  These colour swatches were used to replicate these colours in the Railmatch range.

 

I refer to a previous thread about 'Electric Blue' in 2015 and the answer I gave to Stewart Ingram at the time :-

 

"The actual shade used by Brush Traction was French Blue and was supplied through Foochow paints and manufactured by MacPhersons. This was the same shade as BR specified for the 'Electric Blue'. The Railmatch Electric Blue was mixed from samples kindly provided by Brush to me back in 1964 when I had a Tri-ang model of the same loco.

Incidentally the sister loco D5579 was painted in a shade from the same manufacturer called Bronze Gold which BR eventually termed as Golden Ochre.

I still have Brush's colour chart as a prized possession!"

 

Colour photography and the differing film emulsions are quite a minefield when it comes to confirming exact shades and different paint manufacturers had differing methods of pigmentation ingredients and varnishes. I have pictures of D5578 when fairly new and at four years old without a repaint and you wouldn't think it was the same colour.  I'll try and put a comparison on here once I have scanned them.

 

Working in the bus industry for such a long time also guided me into the best paint manufacturers for durability and the differing shades of NBC poppy red that could be interpreted! All I can add to that is at least the vehicles we painted at our depot didn't turn pink after two years, unlike those of a neighbouring company! 

 

I hope this information helps as liveries and paint durability has been part of my interest for most of my life.

[BernardTPM]

I am intrigued to see that the buffer beams of the AL6 are also in electric blue and not red

 

The Doncaster built locos had blue buffer beams, the EE Vulcan works built locos had red buffer beams.

 

[Pandora]

The Doncaster built locos had blue buffer beams, the EE Vulcan works built locos had red buffer beams.

 

Thank you for the information,   In this link,  E3172 is an EE/Vulcan Foundry loco (AC Electric group technical database) and has blue buffer beams

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h428ee7c

Edited May 25, 2017 by Pandora

[Neil]

I would suggest the last photo shows a subtle difference between the two. I've not seen anything to convince me that any AL6 was painted 'electric blue'. 86259 Les Ross has been painted 'electric blue' and looks utterly wrong.

At the end of the day it's your model and you are free do do whatever you wish.

 

I'd agree but contend that it's visible in the other photos too, the AL6 blue has a green component in it missing from the earlier electrics. Some time ago I started to wonder if BR blue didn't present a constant appearance throughout the years. Colour photos from the sixties seem to show a brighter blue with less green in it than seventies or eighties views. Ok we have to acknowledge the problems with colour films but it seemed to me that it was apparent across a spread of images. There's evidence that the way paint was applied changed over time, which may go some way to explaining why it's possible to perceive a change in shade over time. If I'm not talking nonsense then it may be that the early shade of BR blue was closer to electric blue, leading to the debate and confusion we now have decades later.

[Michael Edge]

Years ago I picked up a Triang AL1 which was incomplete. I revived it with spares from stock and repainted it as an early example. Must have been done in the early '80s I guess. To paint it, I used a rattlecan, it was a blue from the Ford range, and was quoted as a close match in the magazines of the time. I've just looked in the man cave but found I threw the can away some time ago.

 

Stewart

 

That might have been Ford Caribbean blue, I've used that for electric blue in the past.

[BrushVeteran]

I remember having a conversation with Brian Haresnape and Alec Swain at the Model Railway Exhibition at the Central Hall, Westminster in either 1968 or 69, regarding BR blue, as at the time I wanted to paint some existing models in the livery and as I remember Humbrol had not yet introduced that colour to their range. I remember also that I was told that Rail Blue was changed in pigment and the way it was applied, as well as the base coats used, with most applications ending up brushed on to increase the thickness to make it more durable through washing plants. He also referred to the earlier shade as Monastral Blue, more akin to what was used in the XP64 demonstration train, and that had been used on all blue repaints since 1966 up until the time we met when variations in methods of application were adopted.  Electric Blue was also discussed at the time as I wanted to clarify the correct shade Tri-ang had used on their Brush Type 2 model of D5578, which I had purchased some years previously. He advised me to contact Brush Traction, which I duly did with his assistance, and in return they supplied me with colour swatches of both D5578 which was painted in French Blue and D5579 Bronze Gold, both these shades being on Foochow's paint reference chart, being also BR's preferred supplier of paint during the 1960's. Both of these colours became Electric Blue and Golden Ochre respectively in BR's livery register but the official names for these colours were that of the paint manufacturer.  These colour swatches were used to replicate these colours in the Railmatch range.

 

I refer to a previous thread about 'Electric Blue' in 2015 and the answer I gave to Stewart Ingram at the time :-

 

"The actual shade used by Brush Traction was French Blue and was supplied through Foochow paints and manufactured by MacPhersons. This was the same shade as BR specified for the 'Electric Blue'. The Railmatch Electric Blue was mixed from samples kindly provided by Brush to me back in 1964 when I had a Tri-ang model of the same loco.

Incidentally the sister loco D5579 was painted in a shade from the same manufacturer called Bronze Gold which BR eventually termed as Golden Ochre.

I still have Brush's colour chart as a prized possession!"

 

Colour photography and the differing film emulsions are quite a minefield when it comes to confirming exact shades and different paint manufacturers had differing methods of pigmentation ingredients and varnishes. I have pictures of D5578 when fairly new and at four years old without a repaint and you wouldn't think it was the same colour.  I'll try and put a comparison on here once I have scanned them.

 

Working in the bus industry for such a long time also guided me into the best paint manufacturers for durability and the differing shades of NBC poppy red that could be interpreted! All I can add to that is at least the vehicles we painted at our depot didn't turn pink after two years, unlike those of a neighbouring company! 

 

I hope this information helps as liveries and paint durability has been part of my interest for most of my life.

I've scanned some of my images that I took and some I own copyright on to demonstrate the weathering effect on electric blue over a four year period on a diesel locomotive. They were more than like likely all different types of film i.e. Kodak Ektachrome X, Kodakchrome 2, Kodakchrome X and Ilfordcolour and subject to different lighting conditions. Heavy cleaning with paraffin rags to remove oil stains also tended to darken the paintwork, but the paintwork on this loco, apart from the roof receiving a coat of grey at some point, was the original 'electric blue' or Foochow French Blue as applied in November 1960. 

 

[Titan]

Blimey. Even I would have sworn that was not electric blue!

[BernardTPM]

Thank you for the information,   In this link,  E3172 is an EE/Vulcan Foundry loco (AC Electric group technical database) and has blue buffer beams

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h428ee7c

So they must have fallen into line somewhere between E3164 and E3172. Useful.

[cctransuk]

Have a look at https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/15734898347/in/album-72157648664106321/ .

 

Now I know all about screen adjustment, and not trusting what you see - but the centre locomotive in this group of three is definitely not the same colour as the other two.

 

Received knowledge is that all of the LMR 25kv electric locos; (the ALs); were painted Electric Blue - but it would seem that the various manufacturers interpreted this with some degree of approximation !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

I have to confess to a certain mishieviousness with the original posting; my recollection of Electric Blue was that it was always the same - but the photo seemed to prove otherwise. I guessed that the apparent difference was some form of photographic anomoly, but I certainly generated a lively debate.

 

Below are some (bad) photos that I took at Brinklow in September 1965, using an Instamatic camera with, I believe, Kodak slide film. They were all taken on the same day within a couple of hours, and I don't recall the weather changing significantly.

 

 

 

 

 

Now I'm sure that I can see the difference between Electric Blue on the earlier AL? and the Rail Blue of the AL6s and the AM10. Furthermore, I distinctly recall regretting the change from Electric Blue to Rail Blue; this being my first sighting of the latter colour.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[stewartingram]

That might have been Ford Caribbean blue, I've used that for electric blue in the past.

That name rings a bell, you are probably talking about the same rattle can shade as me.

 

Stewart

[TheSignalEngineer]

I the Modern Railways article in 1966 Brian Haresnape did mention that the final Rail Blue was darker than that used on the XP64 set.

 

For my own part I've only got one slide showing a difference in shade between vehicles, with E3151 and a BSO in September 1967.

 

Photo C E Steele

 

The loco looks a different shade to the coach, but this may be because of road dirt, wear, or the different reflected colours each will pick up from the surroundings with the coach being a curved surface and the loco being slab sided. 

[Clive Mortimore]

I the Modern Railways article in 1966 Brian Haresnape did mention that the final Rail Blue was darker than that used on the XP64 set.

 

For my own part I've only got one slide showing a difference in shade between vehicles, with E3151 and a BSO in September 1967.

 

CTT_048(GB) (1280x963).jpg

Photo C E Steele

 

The loco looks a different shade to the coach, but this may be because of road dirt, wear, or the different reflected colours each will pick up from the surroundings with the coach being a curved surface and the loco being slab sided. 

The coach looks like a very early repaint. The grey seems to continue to the coach end as there appears to be no thing blue line and vertical white lining.

 

Edit, its a Mk2 so from the angle of the photo the end of the grey would not be seen. I have awarded myself 10 pillock points.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[melmerby]

Amongst all this discussion it has to be remembered, although less so nowadays, that blue paint pigments were some of the less colour stable ones.

50 years ago I would have thought sunlight effects would have affected the paint after not too long out on the road.

Some of the corporate blue & grey coaches weathered terribly. So it's not just film emulsions, lighting effects, digitising of prints/slides to take into account.

 

Blue cars also seemed to be so afficted!

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

Brian Haresnape's article in Moder Railways is available at http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/pdfs/Modern_Railways.1965-01.pdf

[hayfield]

I the Modern Railways article in 1966 Brian Haresnape did mention that the final Rail Blue was darker than that used on the XP64 set.

 

For my own part I've only got one slide showing a difference in shade between vehicles, with E3151 and a BSO in September 1967.

 

CTT_048(GB) (1280x963).jpg

Photo C E Steele

 

The loco looks a different shade to the coach, but this may be because of road dirt, wear, or the different reflected colours each will pick up from the surroundings with the coach being a curved surface and the loco being slab sided. 

 

 

The locos were clearly a lighter shade of blue from BR blue, you are correct the effects of both grime and sunlight bleaching the colours will have an effect, as does sun or shade does in colour photos, as did the type of film available  in the 60's, plus the variability of the developing and printing by the film processing companies. Also the ability of the photographers and their equipment played a hand in it 

[Pandora]

Amongst all this discussion it has to be remembered, although less so nowadays, that blue paint pigments were some of the less colour stable ones.

50 years ago I would have thought sunlight effects would have affected the paint after not too long out on the road.

Some of the corporate blue & grey coaches weathered terribly. So it's not just film emulsions, lighting effects, digitising of prints/slides to take into account.

 

Blue cars also seemed to be so afficted!

 

Keith

As a schoolboy in the 1960s I recall a chemistry lesson where we saw an educational  film made by  ICI,  "the work of the Research Chemist"  the subject being the pigment Monastral Blue, an "accidental" discovery from a contaminant derived from an industrial process.   the chemist demonstrated several properties of  Monastral Blue including  an extreme quality  of  resilience to light-fade, at the time I formed the conclusion of BR had chosen blue as the corporate image for that reason, a conclusion which may be wrong,  I am not aware of light fade with blue cars,  I have owned two, both long-term   15+ years,  red seems to be the least resilient,  changing from gloss to matt pink, or even eroding away to white! 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalocyanine_Blue_BN

Edited May 26, 2017 by Pandora