First Group win South West franchise

[Ron Ron Ron]

Ahh yes the official fiddle where the Brighton train officially terminates at Barnham, but then 'coincidentally' just happens to transform into another service with a different headcode for the next leg on to Portsmouth / Southampton....

 

 

?...but do they use 313s on the Southampton service? I thought they were usually 377s.....

Both SWMBO and I (usually independently from each other) are quite frequent users of the coastway line between Southampton at one end and Chichester at the other. From personal experience and picking up offspring, 313's are very rare west of Pompey (I.e. to Southampton). I've only ever seen one this far west. 377's dominate.

 

 

Ron

[surfsup]

Both SWMBO and I (usually independently from each other) are quite frequent users of the coastway line between Southampton at one end and Chichester at the other. From personal experience and picking up offspring, 313's are very rare west of Pompey (I.e. to Southampton). I've only ever seen one this far west. 377's dominate.

 

 

Ron

While not officially diagrammed to run as far as Southampton Central, it has been known for a few units to escape from time to time to Southampton Central. I managed to catch one from Sotton Central to Fareham last summer, while I think the last one to do this was only a few months ago.

[phil_sutters]

While not officially diagrammed to run as far as Southampton Central, it has been known for a few units to escape from time to time to Southampton Central. I managed to catch one from Sotton Central to Fareham last summer, while I think the last one to do this was only a few months ago.

It's more tricky if you are expecting a train with a toilet and one comes along without! Mind you that happens when the toilets are out of service or the carriages are packed like sardines and you can't fight your way through. So go before you go!

Edited March 29, 2017 by phil_sutters

[Gwiwer]

313s are not supposed to run west of Portcreek / Farlington Junctions but on rare occasions have done so which I suspect has arisen from displaced stock working.  

 

It isn't so long ago that EPB stock was used for a number of London - Gillingham turns which were extended to the Thanet coast during summer.  Gillingham would be far enough without a lavatory following Friday drinks in a City pub but taking the family to Margate with the nippers wriggling and screaming for the loo would not have been fun.

 

Trying to head back to the topic and because SWT run Salisbury - Bristol workings it bears remembering that for some years the Portsmouth - Bristol services offered no toilet for several hours to the majority of passengers.  One would need to change carriage at a station stop in order to effect relief and back again at the next stop (so long as Dilton Marsh was not one of them) when the service was operated with Thumpers.

There is no requirement to make use of a 313 at any point.  All routes they work are also covered by 377 duties though a change of train may be required.  Those who cannot manage to wait 20 minutes or so on the late-night returns from Brighton have only themselves to blame.  The urgency of need to misuse the gangway as a lavatory is in direct proportion to the amount of alcoholic beverages consumed earlier.

By the by and TUPE notwithstanding I am hearing suggestions which might or might not have any basis in fact that some of the quieter SWT stations which are currently staffed will cease to be staffed.  I have already wondered just how the staff member at Strawberry Hill is justified on a Sunday for example, with just an hourly morning service (at much the same time in both directions giving 50+ minute intervals to contemplate the scenery) and few passengers about.  That much said it is nonetheless encouraging to find suburban stations staffed at all never mind before dawn on a Sunday.

[Glorious NSE]

 

It isn't so long ago that EPB stock was used for a number of London - Gillingham turns which were extended to the Thanet coast during summer.  Gillingham would be far enough without a lavatory following Friday drinks in a City pub but taking the family to Margate with the nippers wriggling and screaming for the loo would not have been fun.

 

No but compartment stock offered some privacy, and the windows opened all the way back then...   

 

Sorry for bringing the tone down....seriously, your point is spot on, we've come a long way...I recall having to do the 'prompt change of car during station stops' once on a seemingly interminable Banbury to Marylebone train back in NSE days. Not a fun experience. 

 

And whilst I agree that removing existing toilet facilities isn't a good thing, (and neither is the use of a train specced for urban commuting on rural cross country services) I still don't think they should be regarded as an essential feature on a short commuter run. 

 

Where does that thinking stop? Metro's? Tubes? Trams? We have 2+ hour long local bus routes down this way?!

 

And I don't understand the DDA comments that kicked this off - I don't see any evidence that DDA provision is resulting in more trains not having a toilet available at all. 

[John M Upton]

Yep, they do go to Southampton:

Southern Class 313/2 313201 Southampton Central 3/2/13 by John Upton, on Flickr

Southern Class 313/2 313201 Southampton Central 3/2/13 by John Upton, on Flickr

Mostly by accident (the theory being a 313 is better than no train at all) on average once or twice a year but on this occasion with yours truly on the back it was a rostered Sunday working to/from Littlehampton interworked with Pompey trains as the line was shut from Littlehampton to Brighton and also the Bognor Branch leaving a limited number of units down this end of the Coastway.

 

In fact my run to Southampton had more enthusiasts than normal passengers.....

Edited March 29, 2017 by John M Upton

[Mike Storey]

Can the side who came runner-up in the referendum stop having a pop at the rest of us, please?

 

Cheers.

 

If your comrades stop posting complete falsifications, as in the last line of post 101, I am certain such pops will cease to have any purpose.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Yep, they do go to Southampton.........on average once or twice a year.......

 

 

Thanks John.

So, as I said earlier......quite rare.

 

 

Back on topic.

I will miss the SWT liveries. Particularly the white regional and blue outer suburban versions, which I personally consider to be one of the best liveries since privatisation and better than any of BR's later attempts at variety. The clean looking, blue 450's really look smart, although a number of them do need a spruce up as the paint is beginning to fade a little after some 15 years or so's use.

 

SWT may have had its ups and downs, but on the whole they've provided a very good service; miles better than the shabby outfit that BR became.

 

 

..

[Zomboid]

Back on topic.

I will miss the SWT liveries. Particularly the white regional and blue outer suburban versions, which I personally consider to be one of the best liveries since privatisation and better than any of BR's later attempts at variety. The clean looking, blue 450's really look smart, although a number of them do need a spruce up as the paint is beginning to fade a little after some 15 years or so's use.

 

SWT may have had its ups and downs, but on the whole they've provided a very good service; miles better than the shabby outfit that BR became.

Stagecoach have done a good job with the branding. I wonder what the new outfit have in mind, given that they've dropped the "first" bit on GWR and TPE.

[phil-b259]

Stagecoach have done a good job with the branding. I wonder what the new outfit have in mind, given that they've dropped the "first" bit on GWR and TPE.

Technically they didn't drop the 'First' branding - as in both cases it co-insideded with the end of the previous franchise when a change of name was pretty much garunteed. With the GWR management contract it was also a smart move PR wise as any downsides resulting from the GWML electrification / IEP trains are not associated with First Group in the minds of the traveling public.

[Gwiwer]

First Group is also selectively dropping its corporate branding from the bus empire.  "The Buses of Somerset" shows no outward signs of being a First Group company.  Neither will the Cornish operations by the time its current rebranding exercise is complete.  In both areas many years of decline, neglect and lack of investment had tarnished the First name very badly.  

 

We do not know to what extent MTR might wish to be the public face of SWT.  I remain convinced they are the key financier and will be the major financial beneficiary.  As such they might well call some (or all) of the shots over livery, branding and other matters.

[HillsideDepot]

They've also minimised the First logo on many of their bus liveries too, with "from First" or "brought to you by First" on the livery somewhere, often almost hidden by being of a similar colour to the bodywork it's on.

 

It will be interesting to see what they do with the South Western in terms of livery and logo, although compared to service reliability, punctuality and capacity, what colour the train is and which logo it carries is an irrelevance. I well remember seeing 47594 stabled at Reading freshly painted in Res livery before the launch of the brand and an old timer among the platform staff commented "they can paint 'em any colour they like, doesn't make 'em go any better" as I took my photo....

[lmsforever]

Not surprised First are minimalizing their name on buses trains ,people associate them crap buses etc and very poor service plus sometimes poor employee contact.Arriva are mariginaly better but depend very much on local profits for the quality of vehicles we had a manager who aquired as many cast off vehicles he could frm other garages,the press had a field day.Agree about SWT,s liveries very bold maybe the new one will revert to the LSWR colours now that would be different.

[jonathan452]

FYI - FIRST STORY IN BULLETIN - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08k5gkf/south-today-lunchtime-news-30032017 (Expires tonight 10:45pm)

 

Don't know if the item has been mentioned/discussed on this thread yet?

Edited March 30, 2017 by jonathan452

[Joseph_Pestell]

FYI - FIRST STORY IN BULLETIN - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08k5gkf/south-today-lunchtime-news-30032017 (Expires tonight 10:45pm)

 

Don't know if the item has been mentioned/discussed on this thread yet?

Interesting. But as usual, the journalist seems to have got quite a lot wrong there. All modern trains can be fairly easily modified for 25kV and there are plenty of other places where it would make sense to use these.

 

It would seem to make sense, on the basis of what he was saying, to buy more 707s and not bother with the 455 upgrade.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Interesting. But as usual, the journalist seems to have got quite a lot wrong there. .......

 

 

Ah! that's Paul Clifton, BBC South's transport correspondent.

No matter if it's trains, planes or roads, his reports are always accompanied with a look of wide eyed enthusiasm and a definite impression that he knows very little about the subject matter.

 

Missing out salient points, or relevant bits of information (putting things into context, telling a more complete story etc,) are his trademark.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39445714

 

 

p.s. The story featured on R4's PM tonight.

 

 

 

.

[SouthernMafia]

That was a very frustrating article to sit through on South Today this evening, Paul Clifton at his best

[PaulRhB]

As they are being built they are third rail, so will need converting, he did say as they are rather than totally useless. To be honest Paul Clifton is a rare voice supporting rail and not sensationalising many stories locally that the rest of the press blame rail for. He's trusted far more than other journalists by the rail staff who've come across him as he doesn't twist the story against rail as do many others.

We will have to wait for the response but it's surely generally a fault of the process that procurement can overlap a franchise change and leave stock under construction without a place

[Zomboid]

It certainly seems like madness to an outsider. But 707s are being built as dual voltage, but without the pan & transformer, so they're actually pretty versatile.

Given the general need for capacity, I reckon they and the 458s will find a home somewhere.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I cannot replay the iPlayer on my phone to double-check, but I am sure the 707 on test in Germany film used in the report was running on overhead. Was I just seeing things?

[surfsup]

That was a very frustrating article to sit through on South Today this evening, Paul Clifton at his best

Indeed Mr Clifton does seem to have a problem with Age. Unless it's shiny and new, then anything older and certainly ex BR is almost treated with disdain - Like making it out that the Desiro Cities would be replaced by a combination of new stock and the 30 year old 442s, fresh out of storage from their Gat Ex days. Cleverley ignoring the fact that the 442s are some of if not the youngest of the full length Mk3 fleets, or the fact that they will be fully refurbished. Surprisingly little was mentioned about the age of the 455s though!

 

Just don't get him started on anything to do with the HSTs either...

[Gwiwer]

If the SWT fleet is viewed from an engineering or accountancy perspective then it is a hotch-potch of all sorts.  Three varieties of 455, all inter-operable but all different, smallish fleets of 456 and 458 and the untried 707 yet to enter service but incompatible with anything else.  On the main lines we have 444 and 450 with two variations of the latter internally, plus the 158 and 159 fleet for non-electrified routes.

 

In an age where management would love one size to fit all this fleet clearly doesn't do that.  The 455s hark back to BR days and some include class 508 trailers; one even has a class 210 trailer.  Such a diverse fleet requires stockholding of parts (whether maintained by the operator or under contract), staff training and knowledge retention and hence the costs escalate.  Stagecoach has apparently managed to keep these costs under control and run a good service almost despite rather than because of the diversity of the fleet.

[John M Upton]

The first two 707's have pantographs for testing purposes (presumably to do with signing off various bits of approval paperwork) but are then scheduled to have them removed when the OHLE testing is done.

 

Retrofitting pantographs onto the 707's should be a very easy job so they will find a home somewhere.

 

It is where all the 455's and 456's are going to go I am most interested in.

[astropsidings]

Unlike many minorities, becoming disabled is something that could happen to anyone. And if being out of the EU means that we start discriminating against people, it makes my conscience about my vote even clearer.

I'm pretty certain that most DDA laws are of British origin anyway

No one would be discriminated against by not increasing provision for the disabled as it is already more than adequate. On a 6 or 9 car refurbished class 159 set the amount of nicely carpetted empty space now provided to comply with nonsensical regulation is extraordinary. Still, as you are permitted to bring your own chair to sit in with wheels on, presumably there is nothing in the bylaws to prevent you bringing your own wheeless chair to enable enjoyment of all this newly created space. Someone suggested I contact my MP to complain. Perhaps I could, but since I've neither seen nor heard of such a person, I presume I don't have one to complain to.

 

As an aside, MTR run the trains in Hong Kong (and are property developers), but the enormous number of buses on the roads are run by private companies, the majority of vehicles being supplied by the highly successful Alexander Dennis, a Scottish company, who will have benefited considerably from the drop in the value of the pound since the "Brexit" referendum (in which I didn't vote, merely watched from afar the bizarre, spurious arguments being spouted by both sides. I do however work abroad as the industry in which I work has been decimated in the UK by an EU directive of 2011, destroying Britain's competiveness, and in the process many of the 50,000 British jobs it previously supported).

 

Anyway, there appear to be some positive proposals in the new franchise, building on the innovation, and imagination shown by Stagecoach. Mobile ticketing, at long last! Also a through Lymington-Waterloo train apparently. And improvements to the services via Yeovil Pen Mill.

 

As a passenger, all I want is a continuation of the frequent service of clean, punctual trains, with adequate, comfortable seating, and I don't much care what colour they are, who builds them, who opens the doors, or who runs them (as long as it's not the govenment)

Edited March 31, 2017 by astropsidings

[Joseph_Pestell]

The first two 707's have pantographs for testing purposes (presumably to do with signing off various bits of approval paperwork) but are then scheduled to have them removed when the OHLE testing is done.

 

Retrofitting pantographs onto the 707's should be a very easy job so they will find a home somewhere.

 

It is where all the 455's and 456's are going to go I am most interested in.

456s, with their loos, should be ideal for that new Portsmouth - Weymouth service.

 

I have not seen any mention of upgrading the electricity supply west of Poole so shorter trains will presumably be necessary.