Third-Rail EMU Photos

[phil_sutters]

The non-67 class traffic at Brighton last Saturday, when the Portillo Belle paid a visit.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by phil_sutters
Incorrect time

[dale159]

4 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Oooh a 170 at Clapham.  That would have been a Salisbury working, surely, as I don't think they were allowed farther west.  Not compatible with the 159s, y'know.    

 

https://units-library.weebly.com/class-170--3.html

 

170s did get to Exeter very infrequently and also worked with 159s, I think the 3 car platforms of Whimple and Feniton kept them away.

 

Back on topic of 3rd rail EMUs, the first pair of Southern 455s 838 & 839 went on a one way trip to Newport today behind 47727.

 

Dale

Edited May 4, 2022 by dale159

[phil_sutters]

On the way back from Brighton I stopped at Lewes, to catch the Belmond heading for the sidings at Newhaven Town Yard. These were the EMU's that passed by while I was there. Although I seem to have overlooked a couple of 313s. I have fairly recently seen a GX train being used on the Seaford branch as a Brighton and Hove Albion matchday service, when the usual 313s are often replaced by one or two 377s, to give added capacity to and from the Amex stadium at Falmer.

Seeing the departures board in one of these photos made me realise that my camera's 'clock' has been 16 minutes fast. So if you were to look at a photo's meta date you would see an incorrect time. The times in the caption given are the departure times from the originating station.

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by phil_sutters
Additional info

[phil-b259]

Spotted on my travels into south London today today (involving a class 455)

 

And no, I wasn’t the one responsible

 

 

Edited May 9, 2022 by phil-b259

[Gwiwer]

On 05/05/2022 at 00:21, phil_sutters said:

Lewes

The former double-sided “Oxted” road is still identifiable. After closure to Uckfield it was felt that platforms 4 and 5, which were served by a single track, were no longer required although they were served by electric trains as well. The trackbed was spanned by something akin to a ship’s gangway in order to shorten the walk from the London side to the Brighton side of the station and to give step-free access between platforms 3 and 6. 
 

It is now topped out with gravel having never been resurfaced as a part of the reduced number of platforms. Now five where there were once eight; the original platform 1 was a Down London-side loop dating from the time Oxted trains reached Lewes via the Hamsey Loop. 
 

GatEx 387s have diagrammed turns on both East and West Coastway routes in order to maintain crew knowledge and to make best use of resources. There isn’t much spare in the 377 fleet but half the 387s would be idle now if not for coastal duties and hire to Great Northern. 
 .

Edited May 9, 2022 by Gwiwer

[eastwestdivide]

The usual fare at Chatham yesterday, a 375 leading a coastbound service:

[Artless Bodger]

On 04/05/2022 at 23:31, dale159 said:

also worked with 159s,

Agreed, on a few occasions I joined a 170/159 combination at Basingstoke on my way to work in Overton, probably either the 0722 or 0750 something off Bas. I travelled in it when possible, as the seats were not so raked as in the 159 and better for my back. Also travelled Brighton to Reading on one after a thorough soaking in Brighton walking up from the model exhibition there, miserable slow, fuggy and packed train with windows misted up - never again!

[phil_sutters]

I ventured into Southeastern territory last weekend, taking a Great Rail Sale half price trip to Dover.

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by phil_sutters
Wrong caption on photo

[John M Upton]

Sssshhhh....  There're sleeping....

Bognor Regis at four o'clock this morning...

[4630]

A few from 2nd-4th May 2022...

 

Eastleigh on 2nd May

444039 and 444010 speed through on the 'Up Fast' with 1W58 Weymouth to London Waterloo, passing 450123 which was waiting with 2B44 from Bournemouth to Winchester.

 

Still on 2nd May and Into deepest, darkest, Dorset at Moreton, and 444010 is following me around.  This time working 1W72 from Weymouth to London Waterloo...

 

...as 444020 arrives with 1W73 from London Waterloo to Weymouth.

 

A longer trip to Eastleigh on 3rd May...

 

Still wearing the base livery of previous operator South West Trains, 450093 rounds the curve from Southampton Airport Parkway approaching Eastleigh with 2B40 from Bournemouth to Winchester... 

 

...with 450115 heading in the opposite direction with 2B27 from Winchester to Bournemouth...

 

450122 leads 450076 into Eastleigh with 1T38 from Portsmouth Harbour to London Waterloo...

 

An assortment of class 701s stabled in Airport Sidings.  Hopefully the commissioning and training can be completed on these new units before too much longer...

 

...I always liked the South West Trains livery, I thought it sat well on the 450s.  450085 departing from Eastleigh with 1T42 from Portsmouth Harbour to London Waterloo...

 

... a rather grubby front end on 444040 as its speeds through on the 'Down Fast' with 1W65 from London Waterloo to Weymouth.

 

Also on 3rd May, a quick call into Wareham and 444027 passing through non-stop, working as empty coaching stock 5W66 from Weymouth to Bournemouth.

 

...passing the now defunct signal box.

 

 

On 4th May and 701042 departing from Poole with 5Q51, London Waterloo to Staines Up Loop, via Poole.

 

And finally on 4th May,  444005 calls at Hamworthy with 1W66 from Weymouth to London Waterloo...

 

...with 444035 heading in the opposite direction with 1W69, London Waterloo to Weymouth.

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by 4630

[Claude_Dreyfus]

As today is the penultimate day of the Southern class 455 operation, I paid a visit to South London. 

 

First up Clapham Junction.

 

 

 

 

 

Next, to Wandsworth Common.

 

 

 

More in my following post. Run out of upload allowance...

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Thence to Selhurst...

 

The roller blind destination board reads 'Sardine Special'. It could be a tribute to the many years these units were stuffed to the gunnels with commuters, or perhaps a portent of things to come (either the tin can this unit will probably end up as, or the fact these units are being replaced by timetable changes and the reshuffling of existing rolling stock - I have heard the wry comment that Southern have a 'magic electrostar tree', that seems to be the cure-all for all ills).

 

That is quite an incline!

 

 

Finally, a classic paring at West Croydon. Odd to think that this scene will be history from tomorrow...

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Claude_Dreyfus
Correction

[Darius43]

Thanks for posting these Great photos - I think the last one is at West rather than South Croydon though.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Darius43]

313210 at West Worthing this morning.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Edited May 14, 2022 by Darius43

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Yes, apologies. I went to West Croydon by accident, catching a train I thought was for South Croydon. I seem to have got the two confused throughout yesterday, even when writing the captions for the pictures!

[Darius43]

Now at East Croydon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Darius

 

PS. just noticed this on one of this morning’s photos

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Darius43

[Grizz]

The Metro Marauder with ‘The Usual Suspects’ from Sussex in the leading vehicle, cheering, as they past Hamsey Crossing on the UP to Charing Cross. 

455835

 

455841

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I doubt it. There is a driving trailer from a class 317 which has been saved, so an example of Mark 3 bodyshell EMU is likely to be kept for posterity. You may potentially get a surviving driving trailer from a 455, but a complete unit is unlikely (4-car EMUs take up a lot of space, the class 365 which has been saved for the East Kent line only consists of 3 carriages and I believe will be used for other - static - purposes).

 

Sadly we won't see complete sets of all class 455 variants saved and I don't think it is sticking my neck on the block to suggest that none of the Southern sets will be saved. 

[phil-b259]

On 13/05/2022 at 22:20, Claude_Dreyfus said:

 

 

 

The roller blind destination board reads 'Sardine Special'. It could be a tribute to the many years these units were stuffed to the gunnels with commuters, or perhaps a portent of things to come (either the tin can this unit will probably end up as, or the fact these units are being replaced by timetable changes and the reshuffling of existing rolling stock - I have heard

 

the wry comment that Southern have a 'magic electrostar tree', that seems to be the cure-all for all ills).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Overall there wil be less stock now the 455s have gone. They will be replaced with some Electrostars redeployed from mainline workings (due to DfT service cuts and a small number of extra Electrostars being bought in from SE and the GN operations) to top up the existing Electrostars in the suburban pool.

 

A Similar combination of cuts and stock reshuffles will see the end of the 313s next month.

[DY444]

6 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

Overall there wil be less stock now the 455s have gone. They will be replaced with some Electrostars redeployed from mainline workings (due to DfT service cuts and a small number of extra Electrostars being bought in from SE and the GN operations) to top up the existing Electrostars in the suburban pool.

 

A Similar combination of cuts and stock reshuffles will see the end of the 313s next month.

 

I think though in the current climate it's very hard to justify 8 and 10 car trains all day on metro services.  The only reason they existed at all off peak on Mondays to Fridays pre-covid was down to the additional train crew needs, operational inconvenience and reliability risk of splitting and joining either side of the peaks.  Many, many times over the years I've travelled on Southern Metro between the peaks and had an entire car to myself and on an average day 4, 5, or at a push 8, cars would have been plenty for many diagrams off peak.  DfT statistics (yes I know!) show that for months now weekday demand has been consistently 75 - 80% of pre-covid in term time and about 5% higher in school holidays, which supports the leisure travel driving demand theory.

 

They do have some potential options for at least the next couple of years to increase the number of units if the need arises.  For instance releasing the rest of the 377/5s by shuffling stock around between the 3rd rail operators once the 701s finally go into service (we already know the remaining SWR 707s are SE bound) , or by bringing back some stored 465s, and there is the potential option (leasing costs notwithstanding) of using the 379s or the soon to be available 350/2s in some capacity.  There's also some slack in the 700 and 717 fleets which could theoretically be used to release a couple of GN units.  Those options (and others along similar lines) won't be around for ever but it should be clear before then what the likely on going peak and off peak demand south of the Thames is going to end up being.

[Gwiwer]

No plans exist so far as I am aware to preserve any class 455 vehicles. Any potential owner needs very deep pockets, a watertight agreement for accommodation and access to suitable skills to conserve and restore their vehicle(s). 

There is a small group aiming to retain both of the extant class 210 cars in SWR 455s with a view to recreating a class 210. That would cover most of the features of a 455 which are not already represented elsewhere. 
 

Southern Metro services are very lightly used off-peak compared with SE and SWR but do load heavily on peak trips. As such the ongoing need is for trains offering adequate peak capacity. 10-car trains can be reduced to 8-car but this requires the redeployment of main-line lower-density 4-car 377s to suburban roles and the outer-suburban 5-car units to main line roles replacing 12-car trains on Sussex coast turns. That’s not an ideal situation.  Slightly fewer seats plus the extea time required to get into and out of seats with full-size tables can affect punctuality
 

4+3+3 formations could be reduced to 6-car or 7-car and mostly still offer enough space at peak times but the 377/3s are expected to replace 313/2s in Sussex. 
 

As most Southern services away from the main lines are no longer advertised to offer first class accommodation and the seating inside the units is identical can we also expect to see the removal of first class markings?  

.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Gwiwer
Big fingers. Small keypad

[Claude_Dreyfus]

9 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

A Similar combination of cuts and stock reshuffles will see the end of the 313s next month.

I thought the 313s had until December?

[Oldddudders]

I have always found the concept of preserving EMUs a difficult one to fit into the enthusiast and heritage railway movements. The latter relies upon an unfamiliar travel experience to attract families on a day out. Elderly carriages - even Mark 1s - provide a taste of the past, while 455s and their contemporaries, with less-plush seating and ambience, have rather less to offer. And how many National Network trips do you have to sell-out to cover your annual costs? Is this niche within the enthusiast market truly big enough for such units to wash their face through ongoing patronage?

 

As Rick has said, storing a 4-car in secure surroundings takes quite some doing and a lot of paying-for. The fact that these and other EMUs have been wonderful servants does not guarantee they could be a self-funding proposition in retirement. 

[C126]

32 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I have always found the concept of preserving EMUs a difficult one to fit into the enthusiast and heritage railway movements. The latter relies upon an unfamiliar travel experience to attract families on a day out. Elderly carriages - even Mark 1s - provide a taste of the past, while 455s and their contemporaries, with less-plush seating and ambience, have rather less to offer. And how many National Network trips do you have to sell-out to cover your annual costs? Is this niche within the enthusiast market truly big enough for such units to wash their face through ongoing patronage?

 

As Rick has said, storing a 4-car in secure surroundings takes quite some doing and a lot of paying-for. The fact that these and other EMUs have been wonderful servants does not guarantee they could be a self-funding proposition in retirement. 

 

Quite apart from the difficulty of operating a 3d-rail unit on a preserved railway without a '73', I had not considered this point.  Such spartan surroundings are not attractive to families; are there sufficient commuters like me who pine for a 4CIG, for example, to support one?  Most, I suspect, wish only to forget their lives wasted stuck outside Balcombe Tunnel, for example (my late father's bete noire I remember from my childhood winter evenings).  And as @Oldddudders mentions, there is also the secure storage space required.  All very depressing, but I fear it is realistic analysis.  😢

[Northmoor]

26 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I have always found the concept of preserving EMUs a difficult one to fit into the enthusiast and heritage railway movements. The latter relies upon an unfamiliar travel experience to attract families on a day out. Elderly carriages - even Mark 1s - provide a taste of the past, while 455s and their contemporaries, with less-plush seating and ambience, have rather less to offer. And how many National Network trips do you have to sell-out to cover your annual costs? Is this niche within the enthusiast market truly big enough for such units to wash their face through ongoing patronage?

 

As Rick has said, storing a 4-car in secure surroundings takes quite some doing and a lot of paying-for. The fact that these and other EMUs have been wonderful servants does not guarantee they could be a self-funding proposition in retirement. 

I tend to agree that while it would be lovely to preserve a 455 set, as representative of the Mk3 EMU, only one vehicle is really needed in the National Collection.  I'm not sure there's much else unique about them that requires a set to tell the evolutionary story.

 

In the AC Loco Group we've always been approached by people saying we need to preserve this loco or that; only last week I was contacted by one guy who implied he had some inside gen about where Class 86s would be available from (as it turns out, anyone who's read a railway magazine in the last three months would have known).  He seemed baffled by the idea that we didn't want an 86/6 because they were almost free (which they aren't), as well as repatriating 86s and 87s from Eastern Europe, while seemingly unaware that (a) we disposed of the 86s and 87 because their new owners could afford to maintain them in running order and actually use them, and (b) what the going rate is for rental of a siding to store a loco in.  Like many enthusiasts, he seemed to believe rolling stock stops deteriorating just because ownership is transferred to a preservation group; when it's parked uncovered in Booths yard, it's Awaiting Scrapping, when it's parked uncovered in a siding at a preserved railway, it's Awaiting Restoration.  I'm not sure the chemical equation for iron corrosion is aware of that.

 

A long time ago and after about five minutes discussion, the ACLG abandoned any idea of restoring electric locos for railtours specifically advertised as electric traction as realistically, the market would fill maybe two trains a year.  The only reason LSL can run "preserved" electric stock is to haul the main stretch of a special's itinerary at the same speed but at less cost than hiring a Class 90.

 

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

No plans exist so far as I am aware to preserve any class 455 vehicles. Any potential owner needs very deep pockets, a watertight agreement for accommodation and access to suitable skills to conserve and restore their vehicle(s). 

These are questions that any individual or organisation preserving any item of rolling stock, should ask themselves and unless the answer to all of them is a clear YES, they should walk away.