Smart Meter = smart move?

[hayfield]

19 minutes ago, class27 said:

A brief word of caution about fitting a smart meter in a very low usage situation. I fitted a smart meter for a local organisation and when talking to the secretary he said, he hoped that it would save all the problems they were getting with billing as  they only had a gas cooker and usage was under a tenner a year. The building was not occupied during the day and the meter was not getting read causing way off estimates, based on greed rather than actual consumption by the supplier. I met him by chance a few months later and asked him how it went? Terrible was the reply, the meter kept flagging a fault as it was not being used causing chaos, rather than the perpetual hassles with over estimated billing!!! No improvement then..

Best laugh ever was a new meter reader incorrectly reading a 8 row industrial meter ignoring the 0 on the first legend (tens of millions) which the supplier rather than questioning just sent out the bill which was over 140 grand. The supplier, rather than looking at the usual £1500-2000 bill and thinking, something's up here, they just charged it out. When I finally got sent to have a look at it the owner was beside himself. When I worked out his connected load (total input) and multiplied it out I found that if he had run his equipment 24/7/365 (totally impossible) it would use about £36000.00 per annum

People ask me if I miss my job? Er. No and less with every year that passes   

 

 

Its the staff that's the issue with blind belief in the system, coupled with employees either inexperienced or without any common sense

 

I kept phoning my supplier (British Gas) stating despite it being mid winter and both of us at home all day the smart meter was not working. They kept telling me it was and I must have a very efficient boiler. British Gas reluctantly sent out an engineer, and we went through the same scenario the system was working. However engineer read the meter when he arrived, then he checked all the items, had coffee telling me nothing was wrong. At least 30 mins had elapses and he went to check the meter reading again and noticed the meter reading was exactly the same despite the house being warm as toast with the boiler at full steam

 

Now in one way British Gas were correct, in that my smart meter was working correctly by sending information every 15 mins, it was the new gas meter which was not registering how much gas we were using telling British Gas I was not using any gas

 

Now to me if someone phones in saying something is wrong, our bills are too low, simply look into it, as its Midwinter and the customer saying the heating is on, look but no gas is being shown surely look at the previous years readings. Old fashioned common sense should say something is wrong ?  not the system is working.  In one way the was working, but alarm bells should be ringing

 

As for the extremely high reading, a simple bit of extra code should flag the issue up prior to a bill being sent out, hardly rocket science, but I expect its cheaper to do nothing and wait for the consumer to complain

[SamThomas]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

The simple fact of not having to read the meter/estimated bills is one of the best benefits, 

It takes very little effort to read the meter & send the readings in every month. No estimated bills. By doing so manually you have a double check so that the supplier cannot empty your bank account without notice.

[SamThomas]

21 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Not in my lifetime matey, that I can promise.

Further to that - I don't trust anyone with my data therefore my electricity supplier will never be able to build up a data profile of my households habits - it's absolutely none of their (or anyone elses) business.

Data, that falling into the wrong hands would indicate the best times to break into your house for example.

[Michael Hodgson]

30 minutes ago, SamThomas said:

Not in my lifetime matey, that I can promise.

No problem - just generate all your own power.

[SamThomas]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

No problem - just generate all your own power.

I can already do that.

[Wheatley]

I won't have a smart meter until it becomes financially unviable not to have one. I know they'll get me eventually but I'll make is difficult as I can in the meantime for the useless incompetent money grabbing twonks. (Yes Ovo, I mean you). 

 

As for not having to read the meter:

 

26th Jan, letter arrives - "You need to send us a meter reading". Well last time I sent you a reading, and the time before that, and the time before that you estimated it anyway, on one occasion for less than my reading. So you can do one. 

 

1st Feb, meter reader arrives ! Nearly fell over in shock  even offered him a brew. 

 

14th Feb. Estimated bill arrives ! Morons. 

[idd15]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

We finally reset our central heating timings to be more in line with our actual activity - pre-pandemic there would be activity in the house from about 6am with people getting ready for work etc but it all changed and now we don't really need heating on before 8am so that was finally adjusted.

 

Also knocked a couple more degrees of the thermstat on the water tank down to 51degrees.

 

But really that's as much as I can alter, the rest only goes on when required and I've never been allowed to 'standby' a device and heaven forbid I ever leave a light on....

I’ve been doing the “gas saving” challenge organised by my supplier Octopus and it’s been surprisingly enlightening and looks as if we may have saved around 20% on our gas consumption this past quarter as compared to last year.

 

From their hints and tips I’ve reduced the flow temperature for the radiators down 12 to 64 degrees and the hot water is now at 60 as opposed to 68. We have a combi and I also turned off the hot water preheat and found it made almost no difference in the time taken for hot water to reach the tap so another saving there.

 

Just prior to the challenge I’d also fitted a Drayton Wiser controller and smart TRV’s and this has allowed us to very precisely schedule and control four rooms and the hall. This has been remarkably successful with three of us working mainly from home the house has become more comfortable when and where we want it.

 

You may find having  a look at the above useful as like you I was a bit stumped as to what to try next when giving energy saving some serious thought. Hope this helps and best of luck.

 

idd

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, SamThomas said:

It takes very little effort to read the meter & send the readings in every month. No estimated bills. By doing so manually you have a double check so that the supplier cannot empty your bank account without notice.

 

I can see my daily usage when I want, no need to read meters or send readings off 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, idd15 said:

 

You may find having  a look at the above useful as like you I was a bit stumped as to what to try next when giving energy saving some serious thought. Hope this helps and best of luck.

 

idd

Blinds and lined curtains that fit down behind the radiator are quite effective, in addition to other measures.

It really made a difference when I tucked the curtains behind the rad in the dining room, where the TRV is normally only on 3 compared to 5 in the regularly lived in rooms.

Edited February 28, 2022 by melmerby

[Enterprisingwestern]

10 hours ago, idd15 said:

 

Just prior to the challenge I’d also fitted a Drayton Wiser controller and smart TRV’s and this has allowed us to very precisely schedule and control four rooms and the hall. This has been remarkably successful with three of us working mainly from home the house has become more comfortable when and where we want it.

 

Common sense will overcome a smart meter any day.

As a matter of interest, what do you estimate the payback period is for the additions?

 

7 hours ago, melmerby said:

Blinds and lined curtains that fit down behind the radiator are quite effective, in addition to other measures.

It really made a difference when I tucked the curtains behind the rad in the dining room, where the TRV is normally only on 3 compared to 5 in the regularly lived in rooms.

 

I still struggle to see why the UK heating industry has this almost maniacal compulsion to fit radiators under windows, (unless of course there is no other option or customer preference etc), the days of needing to do this because of single glazed or Crittall style windows letting in a cold draught which needed to be pre heated are long gone.

I grew out of it 40 years ago when double glazing was coming in, but still I notice it's carried on in new builds, more annoying when the whole aspect and layout of the room is scuppered because of it.

 

Mike.

[Wheatley]

Regardless of the heating practicalities,  putting the radiators under the windows leaves the other walls free for furniture. You can't (normally) put it against the windows, but you can't put it against the rads either. All our radiators are on internal walls because the previous owner was a skinflint and that used the least amount of copper piping, and its a pain. The bedrooms aren't too bad because they're in the same corners as the doors, but downstairs there are large areas of wall I can't stand book cases or sideboards etc against because the rads are in the way. 

[jcm@gwr]

36 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I still struggle to see why the UK heating industry has this almost maniacal compulsion to fit radiators under windows, (unless of course there is no other option or customer preference etc), the days of needing to do this because of single glazed or Crittall style windows letting in a cold draught which needed to be pre heated are long gone.

I grew out of it 40 years ago when double glazing was coming in, but still I notice it's carried on in new builds, more annoying when the whole aspect and layout of the room is scuppered because of it.

 

Mike.

 

It's quite simpler, even with the best quality triple glazing, you can't change the fact that glass

is cold, so any air coming into contact with said glass, cools and drops, creating a draught.

So it's the most logical place to put a radiator, as it counters that draught effect.

[jcm@gwr]

14 hours ago, woodenhead said:

 

Also knocked a couple more degrees of the thermstat on the water tank down to 51degrees.

 

 

I would suggest that you wind your thermostat back up to at least 55 degrees,

as that's the minimum recommended to ensure the majority of nasty bugs are

killed off. Less than that can create a nice breeding ground for bacteria, including

Legionnaires, for example. 

[Enterprisingwestern]

27 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

Regardless of the heating practicalities,  putting the radiators under the windows leaves the other walls free for furniture. You can't (normally) put it against the windows, but you can't put it against the rads either. All our radiators are on internal walls because the previous owner was a skinflint and that used the least amount of copper piping, and its a pain. The bedrooms aren't too bad because they're in the same corners as the doors, but downstairs there are large areas of wall I can't stand book cases or sideboards etc against because the rads are in the way. 

 

I did mention customer preferences.

 

12 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

It's quite simpler, even with the best quality triple glazing, you can't change the fact that glass

is cold, so any air coming into contact with said glass, cools and drops, creating a draught.

So it's the most logical place to put a radiator, as it counters that draught effect.

 

If the amount of "cold" air coming in through your double glazing is causing you problems then you need new windows!

The difference between the surface temperature of glass and, say, a wall in any given room is so minimal in practical terms that it is of no consequence, and also, due to the ridiculously thick plastic frames employed in modern double glazed units, there is about 25% less glass to worry about in the first place, so siting of radiators is less critical nowadays as rooms tend to be sealed a lot more soundly and the location of a heat source is somewhat irrelevant.

 

Mike.

[hayfield]

56 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Common sense will overcome a smart meter any day.

As a matter of interest, what do you estimate the payback period is for the additions?

 

A smart meter on its own will not save you money other than reduce the costs of having someone come round to read the meter

Like paying via direct debit it brings the costs of supplying electricity down and tariffs should/do reflect this by offering cheaper terms

 

56 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

I still struggle to see why the UK heating industry has this almost maniacal compulsion to fit radiators under windows, (unless of course there is no other option or customer preference etc), the days of needing to do this because of single glazed or Crittall style windows letting in a cold draught which needed to be pre heated are long gone.

I grew out of it 40 years ago when double glazing was coming in, but still I notice it's carried on in new builds, more annoying when the whole aspect and layout of the room is scuppered because of it.

 

Mike.

 

Radiators should if possible be placed in the best places to make the most efficient use of both energy use and or space available, which may in some cases be under the window

[Nearholmer]

Yes, particularly with storage heaters, as opposed to radiators, it’s far, far. Enter to put them on internal walls.

 

I was helping my mother review tariff options yesterday, as her current ‘fix’ ends very shortly. Ruddy heck did I get a shock when I delved into things and realised that prices that were available on long fix even as recently as October last year are very much yesterdays news ……. EDF had calculated and recommended the best tariff for her; I went over it and checked both their figures and the market, and they were ‘playing it straight’, it is the best option, but her bill will still just short of double!

 

 

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

I did mention customer preferences.

 

 

If the amount of "cold" air coming in through your double glazing is causing you problems then you need new windows!

The difference between the surface temperature of glass and, say, a wall in any given room is so minimal in practical terms that it is of no consequence, and also, due to the ridiculously thick plastic frames employed in modern double glazed units, there is about 25% less glass to worry about in the first place, so siting of radiators is less critical nowadays as rooms tend to be sealed a lot more soundly and the location of a heat source is somewhat irrelevant.

 

Mike.

 

We had our house remodelled which included a large wrap around extension, owing to the large amount of glass area, sometimes our back room does get a bit cold at night against the rest of the house, however it can also be a bit of a sun trap in winter, spring and autumn, the windows and doors are only 4 years old and its a bit what you gain at times you loose at others in heat efficiency. As it happens in summer strangely enough it keeps the room cooler.  However its a very much better living space and this winter not noticeably colder at night, but very much warmer during sunlight hours

 

The 25% extra frame area of plastic frames does not stand up in our installation, the total frame area may in some cases take up to 25% of the area, but ali frames would have taken up at least a third of this space. It all depends on the size of the opening and the amount of door/windows openings in the unit.

 

Though if you have smaller window apertures I can understand this could possibly be the case (one reason we dislike most modern housing developments

[hayfield]

21 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, particularly with storage heaters, as opposed to radiators, it’s far, far. Enter to put them on internal walls.

 

I was helping my mother review tariff options yesterday, as her current ‘fix’ ends very shortly. Ruddy heck did I get a shock when I delved into things and realised that prices that were available on long fix even as recently as October last year are very much yesterdays news ……. EDF had calculated and recommended the best tariff for her; I went over it and checked both their figures and the market, and they were ‘playing it straight’, it is the best option, but her bill will still just short of double!

 

 

 

Kevin

 

I think we all are in for a shock when the new tariffs are announced, but I cannot see it being good value going into a fixed rate when energy is so high, as this and the next rate rises plus a margin for error have been factored in. 

 

I am with Octopus and on the wholesale price with a cap, at worst its not going over the cap, if/when the wholesale price reduces I benefit. I certainly benefited from the last rate cap !! 

[Nearholmer]

The new tariff is not fixed, but it feels to me as if either fixed or variable will be trouble: fixed will cost a lot as the supplier has to take a punt on what’s going to happen, while variable is likely to go up anyway!

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

I would suggest that you wind your thermostat back up to at least 55 degrees,

as that's the minimum recommended to ensure the majority of nasty bugs are

killed off. Less than that can create a nice breeding ground for bacteria, including

Legionnaires, for example. 

Ta, didn't realise it had to be higher - I've put it back to where it was - it's never been at 60 and it has always been too hot to keep your hand under for more than a few seconds.

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

I would suggest that you wind your thermostat back up to at least 55 degrees,

as that's the minimum recommended to ensure the majority of nasty bugs are

killed off. Less than that can create a nice breeding ground for bacteria, including

Legionnaires, for example. 

I have a new concern now, is it actually working - it's loose in it's connection to the tank - the circular clip that holds it in place has cracked so the unit is loose.  It's still attached but able to swing and sits at an angle - I don't know whether this impacts the probe positively or negatively, I'll see how things go, BG not due out till September and I don't really want a call out charge.

[jcm@gwr]

2 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

I have a new concern now, is it actually working - it's loose in it's connection to the tank - the circular clip that holds it in place has cracked so the unit is loose.  It's still attached but able to swing and sits at an angle - I don't know whether this impacts the probe positively or negatively, I'll see how things go, BG not due out till September and I don't really want a call out charge.

 

I'm guessing from that description, that you have an unvented cylinder, as the original style

(copper, with a storage tank in the loft) relied on a strap holding the cylinder 'stat onto the

side of the cylinder.

So if I'm correct, it shouldn't make any difference what angle the 'stat is sitting at, so long as

it's fully inserted into it's hole, you'll get no temperature difference (not measurable in a home

situation!) top to bottom, or side to side, around that locating hole, unless it was massive!

[woodenhead]

Just now, jcm@gwr said:

 

I'm guessing from that description, that you have an unvented cylinder, as the original style

(copper, with a storage tank in the loft) relied on a strap holding the cylinder 'stat onto the

side of the cylinder.

So if I'm correct, it shouldn't make any difference what angle the 'stat is sitting at, so long as

it's fully inserted into it's hole, you'll get no temperature difference (not measurable in a home

situation!) top to bottom, or side to side, around that locating hole, unless it was massive!

There's a small round tube sticking out of the tank, it has a big red ring around it saying THERMOSTAT - so I guess it is to tell the plumber where to insert the probe, they must have overtightened the screw or clunked it when they have done maintenance.  It's only 10 years old.

[jcm@gwr]

9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

There's a small round tube sticking out of the tank, it has a big red ring around it saying THERMOSTAT - so I guess it is to tell the plumber where to insert the probe, they must have overtightened the screw or clunked it when they have done maintenance.  It's only 10 years old.

 

Then my assumption stands, you must have an unvented cylinder, supplied directly by the mains, and no water storage tank in the loft.

And it won't make any difference to the temperature of the water, or how thecylinder thermostat reads it, whatever angle it's at, only if it pulls/slides out of it's locating tube.

Edited March 1, 2022 by jcm@gwr

[SamThomas]

12 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I can see my daily usage when I want, no need to read meters or send readings off 

I can do that simply by switching screens, I have better things to do that to constantly be checking the display.

I can read my meters & send the readings off in around the time it took to write & post this.