Control panels: DCC Concepts Alpha versus Lots of wires, which way to go?

[Anthony566]

These are control pannels the lights are also buttons

 

.. i am currently building two pannels atm but will build 4 by the time i am complete ... i will have a pannel for each of the four boards that mke up my layout but also want to be able to move the pannels around.

 

i have installed the Alpha comms bus plates and created a bus that they connect to.

 

 

 

I am also useing the Cobalt sniffer conected to my ECoS ..

 

 

However you do not need a DCC system to create a DCC control bus for points and accessories. .. the Alpha system is a stand alone control system if you want it to be.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Anthony566

[newbryford]

That looks brilliant Mick. I've spent ages reading through the DCCConcepts website but I can't work out what each board is doing and if Alpha can work with servos?

 

Thanks.

 

Looking at the Deadman's Lane panel, the three smaller boards with the green terminals along the edge are "Switch-D" - they are 6-way. They have the combined LED/pushbutton plugged into them. The two larger boards with the four character display are the encoder boards (12 way).

The small board at the bottom with the blue LED is the SNX sniffer/DCC accessory driver.

 

You do not necessarily need Switch-D. Any suitable momentary input can be connected into the encoder panels - I've built a couple using pushbutton and stud/probe as a comparison.

 

The hookup is pushbutton/Switch-D into the encoder, then sniffer.

 

The setup gives out a digital accessory signal to a decoder further down the line.

 

In my case, it's a mixture of ESU Switchpilots driving Tortoise motors (I know that the switchpilot doesn't have a continuous output that a Tortoise prefers, but that's not caused me any problems so far). Some Cobalt Digital IPs and when I get round to it, a DCC Concepts AD1-HP to be used as a on/off switch to control my yard and building lighting. (They are cheaper than buying Uhlenbrock DCC addressable relays)

 

The sniffer is capable of giving out about 1.5A with a suitable power supply - that's more than enough power for 200 Cobalt Digital IPs........ provided that you don't fire all at once!

 

The Alpha system could control a servo, but only via a suitable DCC accessory decoder that accepts on/off commands. It can also control simple red/green signals via the Alpha Mimic system or any other on/off decoder.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[traction]

Hi Mick,

In the photo below of your Dead mans lane panel at the bottom right and left you have  4 push buttons for a passing loop

I believe these are momentary buttons, so press and release the point will move, press again and it will move in the other direction.

 

 

So my question is, are these the 3 wire or 2 wire switches?

If 3 wire do you need two switches to operate the point in both directions?

 

Also if its the two wire type switch, when you press the button that's not lit will it automatically turn off the other switch?

 

I could be missing something really obvious but just wanted to check.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[Anthony566]

Ian having seen the Deadmans lane pannel from the inside and out i can tell you this is built with Alpha D switch boards.

 

The section you are referring to takes up a switch for each point and each switch has two led light buttons, the button when pressed moves the point to activate the selected route and turnes on the led in the button for the selected route this also turns off the led in the deselected route.

[newbryford]

Hi Mick,

In the photo below of your Dead mans lane panel at the bottom right and left you have  4 push buttons for a passing loop

I believe these are momentary buttons, so press and release the point will move, press again and it will move in the other direction.

 

post-408-0-76405500-1492467780_thumb.jpg

 

So my question is, are these the 3 wire or 2 wire switches?

If 3 wire do you need two switches to operate the point in both directions?

 

Also if its the two wire type switch, when you press the button that's not lit will it automatically turn off the other switch?

 

I could be missing something really obvious but just wanted to check.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

Hi Ian,

All buttons/lights are in pairs (one channel) to the Switch-D. Two buttons can be connected via a Y connector to form a crossover pair - with both motors given the same address. For example, the top three buttons on the main line. There are other crossover pairs in the middle with the two double slips - that took some working out!

 

I could have just used one pair of buttons to activate both ends of the loop, but I want to retain the ability to enter/exit the loop from both directions on either side. There is the possibility that as one train leaves the loop to enter the main layout, another train enters the other loop line from the fiddle yard

 

From each channel "pair", the Switch-D gives out a 3-wire output left/common/right, to the encoder panel.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[traction]

Thanks, so pressing the non lit button turns the point and turns off the light in the other button.

 

It's just confusing having two switches both with 3 wires, when I've used momentary push buttons I've linked the common of both switches together and the red wire goes to one push button the green goes to the other, press one button to operate the point in one direction, press the other button to move the point back.

Only 3 wires for both switches.

 

This looks like its 6 wires for two switches.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[newbryford]

Thanks, so pressing the non lit button turns the point and turns off the light in the other button.

It's just confusing having two switches both with 3 wires, when I've used momentary push buttons I've linked the common of both switches together and the red wire goes to one push button the green goes to the other, press one button to operate the point in one direction, press the other button to move the point back.

Only 3 wires for both switches.

This looks like its 6 wires for two switches.

Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers

Ian

Yes, there are three wires per switch but they plug straight into the dedicated switch-d board so no extra soldering or connections. When I tested the panel with the layout there were 4 points going the wrong way. A very quick job to swap the plugs over with no soldering.

I am one of those folk that actually enjoys soldering and wiring but I'll probably use the Alpha stuff again because it is so easy to use. Yes, it does cost more than normal wiring but the build time saved means I can build more models or play trains sooner.

 

Cheers

Mick

[Junctionmad]

That may be good advice for the OP since he has a lot of wiring already so doing it your way may help him, but it does sound as if he has a DCC bus already - he doesn't specify which or what. On the other hand I cannot see why if anybody already has the bus wiring why they would want another - and different? - bus structure. I know the "two wires" fallacy about DCC has some people foaming at the mouth, but if there is a bus there why use anything else, especially since there are plenty of off-the-shelf accessories that use it.

 

I can see that you are someone who has the skills and the dexterity to use the MERG stuff, and it is good that the OP gets varying advice so he can pick what suits him. The rest of us will need to stick to what we can buy which works with what we have got - in my case DCC Concepts Cobalt motors and Train-Tech signals which all works off one bus and for which you can use a variety of control systems. The OP mentioned NCC controls using Mini-panels - which is where I came in.

My own layout and my own view is that a separate layout bus is valuable but for fault finding and redundancy. Also track power faults don't then take out all the accessories as well. Also a layout bus is bidirectional whereas dcc is not

[RAF96]

I bet there is a world of difference between the prices of the OP's box of electric string and the α-box full of electronic gizmos.

Edited May 1, 2017 by RAFHAAA96

[jaym481]

I bet there's a world of difference between the time it takes to assemble the box of "electric string" and that to assemble the "electronic gizmos." Including troubleshooting, of course. 

[Edward]

Fascinating information here: great to read different views and such depth of detail.  As I am just at the building layout stage ( putting down the track)  as it's a DCC NCE powered,  I have spent sometime trying to decide which was the right route for me for the control panel.  Only a few weeks ago I avowed that the Cobalt etc would be far too expensive.  But once faced with the reality of wiring up at least 4 wires for every point (35-40) plus the track power bus , my view has changed.

 

I plan to use the Alpha Encoder Units with the Switches/LEDs : I'll keep telling myself that it's only the price of a new sound chipped loco!!

 

Many thanks to everyone here who has posted on this thread. ( Also thanks to the staff at Gaugemaster and Digitrains)

[Anthony566]

This is definitely worth watching for anyone considering going down this route as it demonstrates how simple this system is.

 

https://youtu.be/64en_uOTsMo

[imt]

Fascinating information here: great to read different views and such depth of detail.  As I am just at the building layout stage ( putting down the track)  as it's a DCC NCE powered,  I have spent sometime trying to decide which was the right route for me for the control panel.  Only a few weeks ago I avowed that the Cobalt etc would be far too expensive.  But once faced with the reality of wiring up at least 4 wires for every point (35-40) plus the track power bus , my view has changed.

 

I plan to use the Alpha Encoder Units with the Switches/LEDs : I'll keep telling myself that it's only the price of a new sound chipped loco!!

 

Many thanks to everyone here who has posted on this thread. ( Also thanks to the staff at Gaugemaster and Digitrains)

 

I have sent a PM to you on this subject which may be of interest.  In case you don't know look at the top right of the page and you will see an envelope, click on it.

[newbryford]

I bet there's a world of difference between the time it takes to assemble the box of "electric string" and that to assemble the "electronic gizmos." Including troubleshooting, of course. 

 

Having built both boxes of string and the Alpha electronic gizmos, the time saved is immense. And it looks better too.

[Vistisen]

An update from the OP, I have just ordered some bits from the DCC concepts ALPHA, system. I hope I have ordered everything I need to convert the existing control panel. I will probably do a blog post or two about the process.

[Vistisen]

An update from the OP, I have just ordered some bits from the DCC concepts ALPHA, system. I hope I have ordered everything I need to convert the existing control panel. I will probably do a blog post or two about the process.

 

These are control pannels the lights are also buttons

 

.. i am currently building two pannels atm but will build 4 by the time i am complete ... i will have a pannel for each of the four boards that mke up my layout but also want to be able to move the pannels around.

 

i have installed the Alpha comms bus plates and created a bus that they connect to.

 

 

 

I am also useing the Cobalt sniffer conected to my ECoS ..

 

 

However you do not need a DCC system to create a DCC control bus for points and accessories. .. the Alpha system is a stand alone control system if you want it to be.

 

I am just about to actually start constructing a box for my control panel. I ca see that yours are totally enclosed, Is there no risk of overheating? My panel will eventually contain three or four compact alpha and over 20 switches, how much heat will this lot generate?

[Vistisen]

An update from the OP, I have just ordered some bits from the DCC concepts ALPHA, system. I hope I have ordered everything I need to convert the existing control panel. I will probably do a blog post or two about the process.

 

And here is a link to the blog post: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1936/entry-20595-control-panel-part-2/ I'm quite pleased with the result. Although to call it a mimic diagram is not really correct. It does not mimic the points' positions, as changing a point using the accessory controls on my powercab does not result in the LED's changing in sync with the points. This is a bit of a backwards step from my spaghetti panel where a large number of the wires were to power LEDS using an extra spdt switch on the points' motors to show the actual direction of travel on the points. But the appearance and tidiness of the wiring is still worth it. It will only become a problem if I start using both a computer AND the control panel to operate the layout.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Vistiaen

[WIMorrison]

I think the answer to the OP question is - how much money have you got? I looked at it and realised I was into a few hundred pounds without really trying to decided against using them - cheaper to buy an old iPad and simply use it as a dedicated switch board.

[newbryford]

I think the answer to the OP question is - how much money have you got? I looked at it and realised I was into a few hundred pounds without really trying to decided against using them - cheaper to buy an old iPad and simply use it as a dedicated switch board.

 

It's quite easy to dismiss the cost with "use an old ipad", but that wasn't free in the first place.

Then there's a wifi/computer link and software to consider.

 

The OP is using NCE, and the Alpha plugs straight in without any additional hardware.

There are those that still like the tactile touch of a switch rather than the soulless touch screen.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[WIMorrison]

I am not decrying the use of switches and the tactile feel for those who want it - clearly I did otherwise I wouldn’t have looked the system would I? it is the extreme cost of the Cobalt Alpha switches.

 

and iPad connects to my Z21 without any additional hardware

[newbryford]

and iPad connects to my Z21 without any additional hardware

 

Which isn't exactly of help to the OP using NCE......

 

Cheers,

Mick

[WIMorrison]

That was for your benefit, it was you who stated there was additional hardware needed - there wasn’t for me, and you don’t know whether the OP would need additional hardware either.

 

The fact remains, which I made in my post, the Cobalt alpha stuff is very expensive.

[newbryford]

That was for your benefit, it was you who stated there was additional hardware needed - there wasn’t for me, and you don’t know whether the OP would need additional hardware either.

 

The fact remains, which I made in my post, the Cobalt alpha stuff is very expensive.

 

For my (and others) benefit, you didn't originally state that you were using a Z21.

 

My observation was that additional hardware is needed to connect into the NCE using an ipad or similar. It is very clear from the OP that he is using NCE not Z21 

 

I know that the Alpha connects straight into the NCE comms panels using nothing more than a standard RJ12 cable.

I know that a DCD-SNX sniffer with small power supply is the only extra required to connect the Alpha to the sniffer port of the Roco Z21 black.

Oh - and two wires from the SNX to the Z21 - I nearly forgot those.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[WIMorrison]

I am at a loss on the point you are trying to make - the point I made was that the Cobalt stuff is very expensive and for me an iPad was a cheaper solution.

 

You have then jumped in showing how clever and knowledgeable you are on all things yet ignore the simple point I was making which is that the Cobalt switches are very expensive immaterial of what or how you connect them into.

[Vistisen]

For my (and others) benefit, you didn't originally state that you were using a Z21.

 

My observation was that additional hardware is needed to connect into the NCE using an ipad or similar. It is very clear from the OP that he is using NCE not Z21 

 

I know that the Alpha connects straight into the NCE comms panels using nothing more than a standard RJ12 cable.

I know that a DCD-SNX sniffer with small power supply is the only extra required to connect the Alpha to the sniffer port of the Roco Z21 black.

Oh - and two wires from the SNX to the Z21 - I nearly forgot those.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

I was originally planning to use is DCC sniffer with the cobalt alpha to completely separate the accessoriy bus from the track bus. But the sniffer does not work with the alpha,  and according to DCC concepts support you should be aware that the sniffer is apparently not suited for solenoids ( which I am planning to use in the fiddle yards). and nor is it at the moment a good idea to use it with DCC Concepts own new surface mount motors, or so they told me. an few weeks ago.