Control panels: DCC Concepts Alpha versus Lots of wires, which way to go?

[Vistisen]

This post is a copy of part of my blogg, I didin't want to be seen to be plugging that, But I need advice, and to hear your experiences of using DCC to control points in cooperation with a good old fashioned control panel. I have at the moment a control panel that looks like this, and this is for phase one of my layout, the next phase is much larger!

 

The problem is that I have got used to having both DCC controlled points and pushbutton switches with LED route indication on the control panel For Hatch this resulted in there being two 37 pin connecters between the control panel and the layout. Chard is much more complicated and I guess that there will be at least 200 wires between the panel and the layout. My current working symbolic design for the whole layout looks like this:

There seem to be three possible solutions to how to wire this board
1. Carrying on using the current approach. I have at least discovered a 37pin parallel connecter system that has screw connecters which will make things much easier than the screw blocks currently in use.

The pluses for this is that it is relatively cheap. Minuses include the need for soldering and lots of wires
2. DCC concepts have their ALPHA system. To be honest I’m not sure about this. I already use a NCE Powercab which seems to make things easier and cheaper. Pluses would seem to be two wires between the control panel and the layout, tidier wiring looms in the control panel as the Switches and LEDS are combined in one unit. The biggest minus is the price. Another minus is that there seems to be no programming options, for example the fiddle yards for each line have a three way and two normal points. It would be nice to be able to put a single ‘push to make’ switch on each line and have the correct points set for that line. I don’t think that this is possible. It has to be said as well, that I find the marketing for the ALPHA system confusing (still, even though the new website is up) Since I’m planning to use the new DCC surface mounted pointmotors with their obligatory control board there seems also to be bit of an overlap in functions that means buying the same functionality twice!
3. I have just today discover that NCE have their own system for controlling dcc accessories with just two wires. https://ncedcc.zende...tion-Controller I know next to nothing about it, but it seems to do the same thing as the DCC Concepts alpha system. Pluses include the ability to do route settings via ‘macros’ and not least the price compared to the Alpha system. The major minus is that there is no led indication of route settings which would mean that I can only reduce the number of wires, by about 50%. But then there is a new Alpha MIMIC product that appears to be able to create route indication by sniffing dcc signals from the power bus. So that might give me the best of both worlds.
I need to sit down and work out the prices necessary for each solution. The other problem is that there does not seem to be much experience of either the ALPHA og NCE system om this forum.

 

I have estimated that I will need about 20 switches and twice as many LEDS for the layout, and a further 16 switches for the fiddle yards if I end up controlling each point.

 

What do others think about the best way to go?

Edited April 17, 2017 by Vistiaen

[Suzie]

Since you are using NCE the NCE Minipanel might be something worth considering as something you can just plug in to the NCE cab bus, and the macro feature will allow you to set routes and signal aspects with a single button press.

[RFS]

Or you could use a PC with some free software such as JMRI or Rocrail.  Then you can create a PC switchboard where changing points and signals can be done at the click of a mouse, or via a touchscreen. There'll be visual indication of which way the points are set, and if you change points via the NCE handset that will be reflected on the PC display as well. 

[Ron Ron Ron]

As Suzie says, as you're already using NCE, the Mini Panel is an obvious and easy solution, although the Alpha system will work directly with NCE kit.

 

The Mini Panel can also drive panel mounted LED's, as well as set points and routes (individually and by route macros).

 

 

.

[imt]

I am working hard at the moment to automate my layout using NCE mini-panels - note the plural.  I need 2 for what I am doing and that (as far as I have found out so far) is the maximum you can use on an NCE PowerCab system.

 

I am using the Mini-panels for the logic, and the NCE Power Cab macros to control much of the switching of points accessories.  In parallel I am trying to write it up, as I agree there is very little on this forum about detailed use of the NCE stuff.  It has been suggested that I should see if BRM might want it for an article.  Happy to PM the current state to you if you would like it - it MAY help.

 

I am using a "drive to signals" approach to save putting indicator lights on the panel.  I thought about the Alpha-mimic but I really don't need it, nor do I have room in my control box for much more electronics. I too find it hard to understand the ins and outs of the Alpha stuff - but they really are helpful on the phone and by e-mail, as opposed to NCE from whom I have not ever got a reply.

 

The problem with the Alpha stuff is is is one button one accessory, and no scope for macros or for calling NCE macros.  I decided the Mini-panels gave much more scope for waht I wanted to do.

[Vistisen]

I am working hard at the moment to automate my layout using NCE mini-panels - note the plural.  I need 2 for what I am doing and that (as far as I have found out so far) is the maximum you can use on an NCE PowerCab system.

 

I am using the Mini-panels for the logic, and the NCE Power Cab macros to control much of the switching of points accessories.  In parallel I am trying to write it up, as I agree there is very little on this forum about detailed use of the NCE stuff.  It has been suggested that I should see if BRM might want it for an article.  Happy to PM the current state to you if you would like it - it MAY help.

 

I am using a "drive to signals" approach to save putting indicator lights on the panel.  I thought about the Alpha-mimic but I really don't need it, nor do I have room in my control box for much more electronics. I too find it hard to understand the ins and outs of the Alpha stuff - but they really are helpful on the phone and by e-mail, as opposed to NCE from whom I have not ever got a reply.

 

The problem with the Alpha stuff is is is one button one accessory, and no scope for macros or for calling NCE macros.  I decided the Mini-panels gave much more scope for waht I wanted to do.

 

Yes please, I would like to see your draft write up!.

I think I am leaning towards the NCE for control/ Mimic for indication option. Can the NCE be used to  'flip/flop' a DCC accessory? I have on my current control panel a single simple push to make switch for each point, each time you press it, it changes the direction of a point. On the NCE information page it says:

 

Each Programmable input step can also be configured in a variety of ways.

1. Control an accessory decoder such as a Switch It.

 

​Does that mean I have to assign two inputs to control a point or just one?

[imt]

PM on the way! Not sure I understand your question there.  You can control accessories (points, signals) and locos using the Mini-panel (MP).  However you can also call PowerCab macros to extend the things you can do.  I use a button press to set a route then set the signal - so multiple points and signals change for ONE press.  It would depend how you set it up.

 

Edited here to add:  I read that again properly.  Looking at your diagram you have 2 stacks of 4 lines in your fiddle yard.  You would only need 4 buttons for each stack, and you could program things so that the one button set the route through the yard - that is the appropriate switching of the ladder of points at each end.  This would require either a macro set up in your PowerCab called by the MP after a button press or explicit instructions in the code you put into the mini panel. Remember if you give the points the same DCC address at each end of the loop it is easier.

 

You do need to start thinking differently from the one lever one point/signal approach.  This is single button route setting!

Edited April 17, 2017 by imt

[ColinK]

I'm no expert in this area, but use a Power Pro. I've got a six road fiddle yard and I've set up macros so pressing 1 on the NCE handset switches all the points so the road is set for siding 1, 2 sets up road 2 etc etc. No extra equipment was needed.

[Nigelcliffe]

Yes please, I would like to see your draft write up!.

I think I am leaning towards the NCE for control/ Mimic for indication option. Can the NCE be used to  'flip/flop' a DCC accessory? I have on my current control panel a single simple push to make switch for each point, each time you press it, it changes the direction of a point. On the NCE information page it says:

 

Each Programmable input step can also be configured in a variety of ways.

1. Control an accessory decoder such as a Switch It.

 

​Does that mean I have to assign two inputs to control a point or just one?

 

You will need two inputs (ie. two buttons), unless you've found a way to make routes do tricks for you.  

The MiniPanel is designed to send turnout instructions (and a few other things), so it's functionality is "turnout normal" or "turnout diverging". 

 

Another NCE component you may wish to examine is the AIU device, that might give you a few more options. 

 

 

But, if using a PowerCab, you may quickly hit the limit on number of "cab" devices which can be connected.  You'll probably need to upgrade to the PowerPro system to get a very large number of cab devices.

 

 

I don't really see how the MiniPanel (or the DCC Concepts stuff) really fixes the panel wiring, the links to buttons and LEDs are still needed.   It does fix the panel-to-layout umbilical cord, reducing it to a much smaller connection. 

 

 

 

The alternative of a software panel (JMRI, RocRail, etc), plus computer interface would seem worth investigating to me - wiring is then abolished !

 

 

- Nigel

[traction]

You could always go the NCE smart booster route which will increase the number of cabs available.

 

By the time you've bought a PowerCab, Smart booster  and mini panels it may be cheaper to look elsewhere.

 

I have the PowerCab but also other control systems, I would probably use the Hornby Elite and the Railmaster software, that's because I already have them.

It would probably be cheaper to use the NCE USB interface and use JMRI or Rocrail to achieve what you want at the minimum cost.

 

Another alternative to reduce the wiring between control panel and layout is using the PTP Lite system from Merg, that system uses a twisted pair of wires between boards and then you have output boards and input boards all connected by a 4 core twisted pair cable acting as the comms.

Switches and LEDs are connected to these boards and are operated accordingly.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

[imt]

I'm no expert in this area, but use a Power Pro. I've got a six road fiddle yard and I've set up macros so pressing 1 on the NCE handset switches all the points so the road is set for siding 1, 2 sets up road 2 etc etc. No extra equipment was needed.

 

You are quite right.  Macros can provide most of what you want, and the PowerCab only has 16, so something bigger like the PowerPro with 256 macros is much better if you have a bigger layout.  The PowerCab is sufficient for mine but I can recognise the limitations.  The point about using a Mini-panel is that you can use a single button push on a layout mimic board to call a macro - saves remembering macro 36 controls the crossover to the right of the station platform etc.  And you only need the fabled 2 wires to link all this to your layout!

 

You can then go on (if you want to) to setting whole routes through the layout (and fiddle yard?) by pushing a single button, and this can include setting the correct signals. Even more value from your 2 wires!

 

I survived for a long time on simple PowerCab macros and they gave me  a level of control and great fun.  Its just that I am now moving on and up a level and I suspect that's what the OP wants too.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I'm no expert in this area, but use a Power Pro. I've got a six road fiddle yard and I've set up macros so pressing 1 on the NCE handset switches all the points so the road is set for siding 1, 2 sets up road 2 etc etc. No extra equipment was needed.

 

 

Not much help Colin, as he can already do this.

The OP now wants an "old fashioned control panel", which I assume is a hardware panel with a track diagram, switches or button and LED lights.

 

 

....The alternative of a software panel (JMRI, RocRail, etc), plus computer interface would seem worth investigating to me - wiring is then abolished !

 

 

....It would probably be cheaper to use the NCE USB interface and use JMRI or Rocrail to achieve what you want at the minimum cost.....

 

 

Sorry Nigel and Ian, I guess that's pretty much useless advice if the OP wants a traditional style hardware panel.

 

 

 

.

[imt]

Not much help Colin, as he can already do this.

The OP now wants an "old fashioned control panel", which I assume is a hardware panel with a track diagram, switches or button and LED lights.

 

......

 

Sorry Nigel and Ian, I guess that's pretty much useless advice if the OP wants a traditional style hardware panel.

 

I think you are doing yourselves down a bit there.  The OP is drowning under wires (strangling himself in wires?) and is seeking a better way forward.  There are 2 ways that I know of - a glass control panel on a PC sending DCC commands and a physical switchboard of some kind.  I think it's quite right to put both those options forward as they are valid.  I think he has begun to twig there are better ways of achieving the control he wants and reducing the wiring nest.  This IS achievable without a computer.

 

Despite having 50 years in the computing industry I personally find the computer based products opaque, long winded and non-intuitive - though there are plenty who disagree with me.  I chose the buttons and macros approach using NCE Mini-panels and it has worked for me.  I have sent him a description what I did and of how I did it.  Maybe a good description of how the same kind of thing was achieved in other ways would be helpful.

[traction]

Sorry Nigel and Ian, I guess that's pretty much useless advice if the OP wants a traditional style hardware panel.

 

 

Hence why I also mentioned the Merg PTP Lite as that will greatly reduce the wiring between control panel and layout and would give the traditional feel.

It is however only analogue and wouldn't work with DCC.

 

I was thinking about the Merg Encoder which will generate the DCC signals but this would need to be on it's own accessory bus and completely separate from the loco control DCC bus.

 

To have the best of both worlds by using DCC and push buttons on a mimic panel then I would guess the mini panel is probably the way to go.

 

There you go Ron just for you to make it crystal clear.

 

What do others think about the best way to go?

 

 

So PC control is a justifiable way to go IMHO.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited April 17, 2017 by traction

[newbryford]

I've built a couple of panels using DCCconcepts Alpha kit. This was the first for my own layout - it will be used in full exhibition mode in six weeks time.

 

Not quite fully finished off, but fully functional

 

And the internals - including a SNX sniffer to power a completely independent accessory bus (very suitable for DC/analog track but wanting a DCC accessory system)

 

The SNX could easily be removed and the encoder boards plugged directly into a NCE system.

 

There are only four soldered joints - two power supply wires in, two DCC accessory bus out.

 

It took 15 minutes to commission the panel with a previously tested points system via Lenz handset. I had a couple of points that went the wrong way - easily cured by swapping two plugs over on the Switch-D panels.

 

Here's another panel I've built using Alpha components. There are only two soldered joints, but that was only a minor "bodge" to piggyback the power supply to the Switch-D panels from the NCE system that it is connected to.

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited April 17, 2017 by newbryford

[Ron Ron Ron]

I think you are doing yourselves down a bit there.....

.....There are 2 ways that I know of - a glass control panel....and a physical switchboard of some kind.  I think it's quite right to put both those options forward as they are valid.

imp, Ian, Nigel, .....I took the OP's question literally, requesting help and information on the hardware panel option.

 

...... I need advice, and to hear your experiences of using DCC to control points in cooperation with a good old fashioned control panel.....

The glass panel route would be my personal choice, but there are many people who would prefer a physical control panel, or even point levers and would have no desire to use a PC software package and computer screens.

Thankfully, this is easily achievable with the products now available.

 

 

.

[imt]

I think "newbryford"s stuff at post #15 is a fine example of the wireman's art, and a good demonstration of what you can do with Cobalt Alpha display gear.  The only problem with it is that is shows you how points are set, but gives no help in setting them - so display panel and not control panel.  Mick mentions Lenz - so I guess that that equipment is used to control the layout.  I think the OP and others would probably love to know HOW.  The problem with NCE stuff is its 10 years old and has not moved on.  The capabilities of the mini-panel are stuck in 2007 and the basic idea could have been enlivened with a better and more capable processor by now.  Now if there was something similar but better .................

[Ron Ron Ron]

....The only problem with it is that is shows you how points are set, but gives no help in setting them - so display panel and not control panel.  Mick mentions Lenz - so I guess that that equipment is used to control the layout......

The Alpha supplied push buttons have built in LED's.

So Mick's splendid examples do appear to be control panels.

Certainly on the lower image (unlit panel) those look like the Alpha buttons.

 

 

 

....The problem with NCE stuff is its 10 years old and has not moved on.  The capabilities of the mini-panel are stuck in 2007 and the basic idea could have been enlivened with a better and more capable processor by now......

The NCE system itself will soon be getting on for 20 years old and as you say, the Mini Panel is something like 10 years old.

All looking a bit long in the tooth in the way its limited "advanced features" have to be set up and operated.

 

The Mini Panel was first announced alongside a bigger brother "Midi Panel" which never saw the light of day.

No details were furnished, but IIRC the proposed price of the Midi Panel suggested wider capabilities and I think it was suggested that it would include some level of automation (e.g. shuttle control etc,).

 

 

 

.

[imt]

The Alpha supplied push buttons have built in LED's.

So Mick's splendid examples do appear to be control panels.

Certainly on the lower image (unlit panel) those look like the Alpha buttons.

 

 

 

The NCE system itself will soon be getting on for 20 years old and as you say, the Mini Panel is something like 10 years old.

All looking a bit long in the tooth in the way its limited "advanced features" have to be set up and operated.

 

The Mini Panel was first announced alongside a bigger brother "Midi Panel" which never saw the light of day.

No details were furnished, but IIRC the proposed price of the Midi Panel suggested wider capabilities and I think it was suggested that it would include some level of automation (e.g. shuttle control etc,).

 

 

 

.

 

My ignorance showing again!  I have looked it up and you are right, they are switches. My only problems with the DCC Concepts stuff are 1) though excellently designed and engineered it costs a lot, control for those 12 points is £120 (plus some other bits and pieces) - beautiful but too expensive for me (though as they said that's only £10 on top of the point motor cost); 2) you have to set all the points in a route yourself - easy with their clear layout - but not what I and some others want to do; and 3) no signal control (the killer for me).

 

I have talked to them about macros, but there is nothing on its way nor do they seem to want to call NCE macros - for which a protocol exists - but I quite understand that they want their stuff to be widely useable with as many flavours of DCC system as possible.

 

The NCE stuff is in a way sad.  It works reliably and does what it says on the tin.  It's just showing its age (like me I suppose).  The Mini-panel will do shuttle control - not that I have tried it - but the instruction set is there.

[Junctionmad]

There is no particular point in running the accessories through DCC , unless you want to control them from a DCC throttle. If you want a more user friendly control panel , but want to reduce the wiring from it to the layout, then MERGs PTP-Lite or its full blown brother , CBUS , offers a very cost effective way to implement that.

 

Yes , you have to solder the MERG kits up , but anyone that can build a panel could assemble the kits.

 

Disclaimer : I am a MERG member

Edited April 18, 2017 by Junctionmad

[imt]

There is no particular point in running the accessories through DCC , unless you want to control them from a DCC throttle. If you want a more user friendly control panel , but want to reduce the wiring from it to the layout, then MERGs PTP-Lite or its full blown brother , CBUS , offers a very cost effective way to implement that.

 

Yes , you have to solder the MERG kits up , but anyone that can build a panel could assemble the kits.

 

Disclaimer : I am a MERG member

 

That may be good advice for the OP since he has a lot of wiring already so doing it your way may help him, but it does sound as if he has a DCC bus already - he doesn't specify which or what.  On the other hand I cannot see why if anybody already has the bus wiring why they would want another - and different? - bus structure.  I know the "two wires" fallacy about DCC has some people foaming at the mouth, but if there is a bus there why use anything else, especially since there are plenty of off-the-shelf accessories that use it.

 

I can see that you are someone who has the skills and the dexterity to use the MERG stuff, and it is good that the OP gets varying advice so he can pick what suits him.  The rest of us will need to stick to what we can buy which works with what we have got - in my case DCC Concepts Cobalt motors and Train-Tech signals which all works off one bus and for which you can use a variety of control systems.  The OP mentioned NCC controls using Mini-panels - which is where I came in.

[newbryford]

There is no particular point in running the accessories through DCC , unless you want to control them from a DCC throttle. If you want a more user friendly control panel , but want to reduce the wiring from it to the layout, then MERGs PTP-Lite or its full blown brother , CBUS , offers a very cost effective way to implement that.

 

Yes , you have to solder the MERG kits up , but anyone that can build a panel could assemble the kits.

 

Disclaimer : I am a MERG member

 

The DCC Concepts Alpha system is also capable of being a stand-alone accessory system - as in my Deadmans Lane panel above - completely independent from a DCC track controller.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Ron Ron Ron]

There is no particular point in running the accessories through DCC , unless you want to control them from a DCC throttle.

 

For this particular example, I can only disagree with you.

The OP estimates that around 200 wires will need to run between his control panel and out to various parts of his proposed layout, if he adopts analogue control of the points.

Using DCC should significantly simplify the wiring.

 

As for the multiple button pushing required to operate points via a handset, versus direct selection on either a hardware (buttons or switches) or software (computer monitor screen) panel....Mmmmm?

 

 

If you want a more user friendly control panel , but want to reduce the wiring from it to the layout, then MERGs PTP-Lite or its full blown brother , CBUS , offers a very cost effective way to implement that.

 

Yes , you have to solder the MERG kits up , but anyone that can build a panel could assemble the kits.

 

For those interested and willing to do some DIY electronics (a sub-section of the hobby in itself), this sounds like an option worth looking at; but that's another learning curve to tackle, when there are ready made solutions available "off the shelf, albeit at a modestly expensive cost.

 

 

The DCC Concepts Alpha system is also capable of being a stand-alone accessory system - as in my Deadmans Lane panel above - completely independent from a DCC track controller.

That's a point worth emphasising.

The benefits of using a system like DCC Concepts Alpha or similar, for points and accessory control, can be realised on analogue controlled DC layouts as well as on DCC controlled layouts.

 

 

.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[tamperman36]

oh how I wish my wiring was that neat, here's to hoping my next layout will be better

[Penrhos1920]

I've built a couple of panels using DCCconcepts Alpha kit. This was the first for my own layout - it will be used in full exhibition mode in six weeks time.

 

Not quite fully finished off, but fully functional

panel 10.jpg

 

And the internals - including a SNX sniffer to power a completely independent accessory bus (very suitable for DC/analog track but wanting a DCC accessory system)

panel 9.jpg

 

The SNX could easily be removed and the encoder boards plugged directly into a NCE system.

 

There are only four soldered joints - two power supply wires in, two DCC accessory bus out.

 

It took 15 minutes to commission the panel with a previously tested points system via Lenz handset. I had a couple of points that went the wrong way - easily cured by swapping two plugs over on the Switch-D panels.

 

Here's another panel I've built using Alpha components. There are only two soldered joints, but that was only a minor "bodge" to piggyback the power supply to the Switch-D panels from the NCE system that it is connected to.

ES1.jpg

ES2.jpg

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

That looks brilliant Mick. I've spent ages reading through the DCCConcepts website but I can't work out what each board is doing and if Alpha can work with servos?