hayfield Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Well, I've finally run out of patience with the Hattons 14XX mechanism. After further running in this afternoon, it actually ran worse than it did before, just like the first example I had from them, before I sent it back and got this one. Enough is enough. As I've posted on the Hattons 14XX thread, in due course I shall remove the Hattons chassis and all the permanently-fixed internal workings, leaving the lovely body shell only. I shall then build and fit the Perseverence chassis kit that I have and consign the Hattons/DJM mechanism to the place it belongs - the skip. I think it may be a common thing that hewer RTR locos are difficult to maintain once something goes wrong. I built a Perseverance 14xx chassis (for my K's 14xx) many years ago and they are easy to build, even as it was the first compensated chassis I built. Now I would use a High Level gearbox, can motor and the biggest flywheel I could fit in, coupled with plenty of weight added to the tanks. At least if something goes wrong they are easy to service Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PUASHP Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 Not even considering using the chassis on my Hattons 58xx for Hembourne. I also have a perseverance chassis ready to build and plan to fit a DCC sound chip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted August 24, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 24, 2018 Not even considering using the chassis on my Hattons 58xx for Hembourne. I also have a perseverance chassis ready to build and plan to fit a DCC sound chip. Well, I was sceptical from the moment that I saw how badly my first example from them ran, so I ordered the Perseverance chassis, plus wheels, as a kind of contingency. The first 14XX went back to Hattons and the replacement arrived and to begin with, I thought there may be some chance that it would settle down. In fact, it recently seemed to be improving, until the most recent session on the rolling road this week, when I finally decided that 'enough was enough'. Building an etched chassis also has the advantage that you don't have to put up with the slightly over-sized driving wheels on the Hattons one, either. Are you planning on fitting any compensation or springing on yours, by the way? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PUASHP Posted August 25, 2018 Share Posted August 25, 2018 Compensation as I have used on a pair of pannier tank chassis to go under Bachmann bodies and they work well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted August 25, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 25, 2018 Well, I was sceptical from the moment that I saw how badly my first example from them ran, so I ordered the Perseverance chassis, plus wheels, as a kind of contingency. The first 14XX went back to Hattons and the replacement arrived and to begin with, I thought there may be some chance that it would settle down. In fact, it recently seemed to be improving, until the most recent session on the rolling road this week, when I finally decided that 'enough was enough'.I wonder if I may, as someone who is extremely sceptical about the benefits of rolling roads, ask whether the running problems/issues/poor performance you have encountered was the same on a length of track as it was on the RR? Thanks, Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted August 25, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2018 I use the rolling road to get the 'distance' under the loco's belt, so to speak but the real test is always on track. The first Hattons 14XX was run-in on a circle of track and actually started to get worse during that process. The second one seemed more promising when initially tested on track and after a couple of spells on the rolling road seemed to improve somewhat, although not enough to satisfy. So a further spell on the rolling road followed, after which it was actually worse, hence my decision to throw in the towel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted August 25, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 25, 2018 I would add that my preference is to run in on track, but this isn't always possible in the domestic environment, hence the use of the rolling road. I have seen significant improvement on both RTR and kit-built chassis when run-in on my rolling road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted August 26, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 26, 2018 Many thanks, I had a theory ....... which clearly doesn't have legs....... Totally agree that building a replacement chassis is the easier/more reliable outcome in the long term. Just seems a annoying waste of time and effort for a OO RTR that isn't being converted to a wider gauge that should run as it is. Such a shame. If you do just bin the original chassis and don't experiment with it, ( being an inveterate 'fiddler' I would be tempted to fit a bigger motor as well as driving off just one axle just to see the results), don't bin the little motor if it still works. If it is the same size - 7x16mm - as those used in the latest Farish steam locos then you may be able to re-coup some cost as currently replacements from Bachmann - quite a few seem to fail - are costing £20 a pop for those needing them......... regards, Izzy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 26, 2018 Share Posted August 26, 2018 (edited) Many thanks, I had a theory ....... which clearly doesn't have legs....... Totally agree that building a replacement chassis is the easier/more reliable outcome in the long term. Just seems a annoying waste of time and effort for a OO RTR that isn't being converted to a wider gauge that should run as it is. Such a shame. If you do just bin the original chassis and don't experiment with it, ( being an inveterate 'fiddler' I would be tempted to fit a bigger motor as well as driving off just one axle just to see the results), don't bin the little motor if it still works. If it is the same size - 7x16mm - as those used in the latest Farish steam locos then you may be able to re-coup some cost as currently replacements from Bachmann - quite a few seem to fail - are costing £20 a pop for those needing them......... regards, Izzy And expensive unless you are lucky enough to buy a ready made second hand one, at a guess over £60 by the time you buy wheels, motor and gearbox. Got a Comet one a few months ago in 00 gauge for about the cost of the motor Edited August 26, 2018 by hayfield Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted August 29, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 29, 2018 The motor and the gearbox components for the Perseverance 14XX chassis have just arrived (thanks to High Level for the usual excellent service). I'm minded to put further work on the layout on the back-burner for a while and concentrate on doing this loco. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted September 6, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 6, 2018 I've been a bit busy with other stuff of late, but with regard to the replacement of the DJM chassis on my Hattons 14XX, I have belated realised that my cunning plan to use single beam compensation and drive the leading axle via an equally cunning combination of a High Level LoadHauler+ gearbox plus a 'D1 DriveStretcher' won't work, as there's (only just) not enough room without fouling the rear driven axle. I had, therefore, planned to install an unnecessarily complex type of twin-beam compensation, with the gearbox re-configured (but minus the 'D1 DriveStretcher') and driving the rear driven axle. Having just checked Iain Rice's original book on 'Loco Chassis Construction' to check that I had got the configuration of twin-beam compensation right in my mind, I noticed a much simpler way of doing it, illustrated in his book, so that is what I will now plan to do. Yes, I could simply install individual hornblock springing or the current fad, 'continuous springy beams', but I don't have a degree in engineering and besides, I like it here in my comfort zone. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 I'll discuss simple and easy methods of compensation etc. with you at S4UM. They will have to be simple 'cos I'm doing it. However, I'm not easy. Well, not very............................. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted September 28, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 28, 2018 I've now made a start on putting a new chassis under the Hattons/DJM 14XX - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/21/entry-21363-new-chassis-for-the-hattons-14xx/ 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 1, 2018 Share Posted October 1, 2018 I have had a quick read of the blog, the cost of these items and the inability of ease of being able to service them is quite alarming. The one thing you could say about the old Triang/Hornby or Hornby Dublo locos is that they could be serviced, or taken apart and have better components added. If I am paying upwards of £100 or more for a loco I expect it to both work and be made in such a way servicing/repairing it is a relatively easy. At least when you build your chassis it will have a decent mechanism, which in future will be serviceable and repairable. Good luck with the rebuild 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted October 1, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 1, 2018 I have had a quick read of the blog, the cost of these items and the inability of ease of being able to service them is quite alarming. The one thing you could say about the old Triang/Hornby or Hornby Dublo locos is that they could be serviced, or taken apart and have better components added. If I am paying upwards of £100 or more for a loco I expect it to both work and be made in such a way servicing/repairing it is a relatively easy. ... Yes, that's my take on the situation too. I'd expect running quality to match the appearance of a loco costing well to the north of Hornby's 'Smoky Joe'. Of course there will be the odd model which sneaks through the quality control stage but in cases like this where poor running seems widespread I'd expect the manufacturer to take responsibility for the remedy like Heljan did with the first batch of Claytons. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 1, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) Well, I'm getting on with some jobs on the chassis, such as preparing the main frames and spacers for soldering and making up the hornblocks, but further progress will now depend on the receipt of a parcel from High Level. I had another useful chat with the ever-helpful Chris Gibbon this afternoon and he's rushing further gearbox components to me, so that I will have a variety of configurations to try later this week. I've realised that I may well be able to revert to my original plan of driving the leading axle, fixed, using a High Level DriveStretcher attached to the end of an 'articulated' LoadHauler Compact+ or Roadrunner+ gearbox, which should allow me to have the gearbox clear of the second axle and occupying the available space inside that horrible mazak block. This in turn would allow me to fit single beam compensation on the rear driven and pony truck axles, as per the kit's original design. Doing this in OO has proven a bit of a headache, as there isn't enough room (in some of the possible configurations) to fit the gearbox between two internal rocking compensation beams, had I opted for twin-beam compensation on either the front two or rear two axles. If the above cunning plan doesn't work, then twin-beam compensation at this stage will almost certainly require one of the High Level SlimLiner gearboxes, originally designed for 3mm scale modellers, but with a much narrower width between the frames, one of those would allow twin compensation beams either side of the gearbox. I could, of course, fit purely sprung hornblocks, but they are a little outside my comfort zone and I'd rather work with designs that I am already familiar with, even if the application of same needs to be a bit more inventive. Why even bother with compensation or springing in OO? Well, I do try to do this with locos of this size, as it does improve electrical pick up and overall running, even in OO. Edited October 1, 2018 by Captain Kernow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted October 1, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 1, 2018 The one thing that is missing on the subject is comment from the designer or from Hattons themselves..... Rob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Yes, that's my take on the situation too. I'd expect running quality to match the appearance of a loco costing well to the north of Hornby's 'Smoky Joe'. Of course there will be the odd model which sneaks through the quality control stage but in cases like this where poor running seems widespread I'd expect the manufacturer to take responsibility for the remedy like Heljan did with the first batch of Claytons. Neil There is a thread is kit building dead, due to the quality of ready to run models. Perhaps a new one is needed, is chassis building increasing due to poor quality mechanisms ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted October 2, 2018 Share Posted October 2, 2018 Well, I was sceptical from the moment that I saw how badly my first example from them ran, so I ordered the Perseverance chassis, plus wheels, as a kind of contingency. The first 14XX went back to Hattons and the replacement arrived and to begin with, I thought there may be some chance that it would settle down. In fact, it recently seemed to be improving, until the most recent session on the rolling road this week, when I finally decided that 'enough was enough'. Building an etched chassis also has the advantage that you don't have to put up with the slightly over-sized driving wheels on the Hattons one, either. Are you planning on fitting any compensation or springing on yours, by the way? I am rather afraid I am lost where it comes to ready to run locos, prefering to have kit built locos, though I do have a couple of nice RTR loco bodies on etched chassis (Bachmann 57xx (P4) Bachmann 3F (00) ) which are really nice runners, also have a GWR Mogul waiting to be finished(00). The quality of the detailing is outstanding, but chassis problems seem to have been an issue since the arrival of the Airfix 14xx and Mainline J72 40+ years ago. Now these two models were a quantum leap from what was previously available in the UK and I guess teething problems were to be expected especially as these were competitively priced Fast forward 40 years and the quality of the bodies have improved still further with an amazing choice of prototypes available, how is reliability in general are these new models ? I have a Bemo loco which is amazing and my Ixon tank takes a lot of beating. The quality of these locos in both looks and performance is stunning and I can see why they cost so much. How do the British outline locos stand up in 4 mm scale ? Is it just either the odd loco or odd model which fails to live up to expectations or is it the race to have something different is causing reliability issues Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 2, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2018 I am rather afraid I am lost where it comes to ready to run locos, prefering to have kit built locos, though I do have a couple of nice RTR loco bodies on etched chassis (Bachmann 57xx (P4) Bachmann 3F (00) ) which are really nice runners, also have a GWR Mogul waiting to be finished(00). The quality of the detailing is outstanding, but chassis problems seem to have been an issue since the arrival of the Airfix 14xx and Mainline J72 40+ years ago. Now these two models were a quantum leap from what was previously available in the UK and I guess teething problems were to be expected especially as these were competitively priced Fast forward 40 years and the quality of the bodies have improved still further with an amazing choice of prototypes available, how is reliability in general are these new models ? I have a Bemo loco which is amazing and my Ixon tank takes a lot of beating. The quality of these locos in both looks and performance is stunning and I can see why they cost so much. How do the British outline locos stand up in 4 mm scale ? Is it just either the odd loco or odd model which fails to live up to expectations or is it the race to have something different is causing reliability issues I'd say that there are a great many RTR locos, which run as well as they look. Bachmann diesels, for example, are usually really good, smooth runners and you can get good ones from the likes of Heljan and Hornby as well. Some Heljan diesels seem to suffer with slight cogging in the motors, in my experience at least. As regards RTR steam locos, it's more of a mixed bag in my personal experience. The main manufacturers Bachmann and Hornby can come up with some delightful runners and where I get a good one, I usually keep the RTR chassis, if the loco is for one of my OO layouts. I have a Bachmann 64XX, which was a bit jerky when new, but has improved sufficiently with good running in, that I will keep the RTR chassis, when I convert it to a 74XX. Similarly, I have one very good Hornby Peckett and one with a slight tight spot (the latter one is due for conversion to P4, so I'm not too worried at the moment). I did, however, have a Bachmann BR Standard Class 3 2-6-2T, which refused to run smoothly, despite much running in and this eventually (out of desperation and sheer frustration) got a replacement etched chassis, which involved converting a Comet 76XXX 2-6-0 chassis kit. My early chassis replacements involved replacing old Mainline split chassis with Perseverance or Comet chassis, together with Sagami or Mashima motors and good gearboxes (usually DJH before the advent of High Level). One of the best recent releases is the Hattons 'P', in my experience, which is nice and smooth, but even this has been beaten for sheer silkiness by the new Dapol B4, which has to be the best running RTR steam loco 'straight out of the box' that I've ever bought. These unexpected (for Mid-Wales) Southern locos are to become sold-out-of-service types to an outrageously improbable light railway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 57xx Posted October 2, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 2, 2018 The one thing that is missing on the subject is comment from the designer or from Hattons themselves..... Good luck with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted October 3, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 3, 2018 Neil There is a thread is kit building dead, due to the quality of ready to run models. Perhaps a new one is needed, is chassis building increasing due to poor quality mechanisms ? In amongst my rtr stuff I have a few kit built locos and the odd one or two with scratchbuilt chassis. I think there's a lot to be said for not limiting oneself to what rtr locos are available, it means that you choose the location and era of your layout rather than it be determined by what's available to buy. But we still come back to a reasonable expectation of good running from what's a £99 loco. Interestingly Hatton's list the model under DJ Models rather than their own brand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 24, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 24, 2018 Work on the layout itself has stopped for the moment, as I'm concentrating modelling time on the challenge that is re-working the Hattons/DJM 14XX, which is to be a key loco on Bethesda Sidings in due course, plus there's a number of DIY type jobs that have to be done at home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 25, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 25, 2018 Another update on Bethesda Sidings' 14XX - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/21/entry-21481-new-chassis-for-the-hattons-14xx-part-2/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Neil Posted October 26, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 26, 2018 Thanks for the link CK. The loco seems to be putting up a fight at every step, you're obviously made of sterner stuff than me. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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