Penmaenpool (Llyn Penmaen)

[Focalplane]

Quite a busy day today (including some decorating, exercise and cooking a delicious French lamb supper) but this is about the Penmaenpool progress.  I started to build the scissor crossover "module" which consists of the Marcway track, 4 tortoises and a lot of wire.  So far:

 

 

Those bundles of brown wire are probably not needed, I think they are only necessary if using DC.  But I have left them in place in case they are needed.

 

My current problem is that I can't tell which wires to connect to the switched terminals of the Tortoise switches.  Does this have to be hit and miss?  I did try to measure resistance across the terminals of the Tortoise switches but got badly confused so that will have to be tackled again tomorrow when my head may be a bit clearer.  (Although I had to study a course of logic at university I don't think it was very well taught.  If you know who Barbara* is then you may understand my issues with a course in Syllogistics.)

 

So this evening I started working on the irregular inclines and I think I have them sorted.  No stalling is a good result!  The fact that the uprights can be adjusted so easily is one very good reason for adopting the L-Girder system.  The remedy will mean a re-alignment of the Dolgelley fiddle yard but this is easily done.

 

Paul

 

*  Barbara - if all A is B and all B is C then all A is C

 

 

[Simond]

Paul,

 

I’ve been travelling around the country ove4 the weekend, Pendon on Saturday and Didcot yesterday, shame that driving 137 miles on motorways takes 4 hours in Britain today. Whilst both visits were very enjoyable, the travelling was so disagreeable as to make me doubt my sanity... and today I need to go to Warwick for work...

 

Anyway, looking at your scissors, it would appear that the k crossing is integral with the two v crossings, meaning that you have two “triangles” and two v’s to change polarity of, which from memory isn’t what the guild diagram covers.

 

I am sure that it is possible to determine these polarities from the tortoises, maybe with an added relay. Other alternatives exist, such as a frog juicer (there will be some smiles at reading me posting that!) or cutting rail breaks to isolate the k crossings.

 

I’ll have a ponder over my elevenses before heading out to do battle with the woeful transport system.

 

Best

Simon

[Focalplane]

Paul,

 

I’ve been travelling around the country ove4 the weekend, Pendon on Saturday and Didcot yesterday, shame that driving 137 miles on motorways takes 4 hours in Britain today. Whilst both visits were very enjoyable, the travelling was so disagreeable as to make me doubt my sanity... and today I need to go to Warwick for work...

 

Anyway, looking at your scissors, it would appear that the k crossing is integral with the two v crossings, meaning that you have two “triangles” and two v’s to change polarity of, which from memory isn’t what the guild diagram covers.

 

I am sure that it is possible to determine these polarities from the tortoises, maybe with an added relay. Other alternatives exist, such as a frog juicer (there will be some smiles at reading me posting that!) or cutting rail breaks to isolate the k crossings.

 

I’ll have a ponder over my elevenses before heading out to do battle with the woeful transport system.

 

Best

Simon

 

Simon

 

The four crossings appear to be isolated from each other and I just checked with my ohm meter again to be sure.  So far I have connected all six switches on the four Tortoises but am still unsure of the polarity of the terminals.  I am hoping that relative lucidity from an early morning swim, coupled with two cups of coffee, will allow me to concentrate.

 

We gave up on the short ferry/tunnel crossings into Kent several years ago, mostly to avoid the M25 but also the Calais immigrant problem (which has now transferred to Caen Ouistreham though nowhere near as threatening).  A few years ago we traveled from Kent to the Midlands just after Christmas.  The M25 bit took two hours.  We were in an adjacent lane to a Chinese wholesale food importer's van.  Wing Yip has become a household name we associate with the M25 as we were never more than 6 vehicles in front of behind the van.  The Birmingham based company has the amusing sign "Wing Yip, all the Chinese you need to know" on the side of its vans.

 

At least the roads around Warwick are quite good - the A46 is six lanes between Leamington and Coventry.  Bon voyage!

 

Paul

[St Enodoc]

Simon

 

The four crossings appear to be isolated from each other and I just checked with my ohm meter again to be sure.  So far I have connected all six switches on the four Tortoises but am still unsure of the polarity of the terminals.  I am hoping that relative lucidity from an early morning swim, coupled with two cups of coffee, will allow me to concentrate.

 

We gave up on the short ferry/tunnel crossings into Kent several years ago, mostly to avoid the M25 but also the Calais immigrant problem (which has now transferred to Caen Ouistreham though nowhere near as threatening).  A few years ago we traveled from Kent to the Midlands just after Christmas.  The M25 bit took two hours.  We were in an adjacent lane to a Chinese wholesale food importer's van.  Wing Yip has become a household name we associate with the M25 as we were never more than 6 vehicles in front of behind the van.  The Birmingham based company has the amusing sign "Wing Yip, all the Chinese you need to know" on the side of its vans.

 

At least the roads around Warwick are quite good - the A46 is six lanes between Leamington and Coventry.  Bon voyage!

 

Paul

Paul, if we name the four V crossings for the points as NW, NE, SW and SE, the two K crossings as N & S, and the two V crossings on the diamond as W & E, which four are you referring to as isolated from each other?

[Focalplane]

Paul, if we name the four V crossings for the points as NW, NE, SW and SE, the two K crossings as N & S, and the two V crossings on the diamond as W & E, which four are you referring to as isolated from each other?

 

I hope I have the answer to your question.  Before the scissor crossing had any wiring attached, all four crossings were isolated, both with cuts in the rails and with cuts on the copper clad sleepers.  An ohm meter measuring across each and any of the four crossings gave a zero reading.

 

I have spent the last two hours soldering up the four crossings to the six SPDTs on the four Tortoises.  I have yet to wire up the Tortoise motors so I have not been able to test the wiring.  However, I have checked off all the instructions on the Guild technical paper and they should be correct.  I don't believe I can post a copy of the Guild's diagram, etc. due to copyright.

 

Perhaps this afternoon I can wire up the motors and install the module.

 

Bonne chance!!

 

Paul

[St Enodoc]

I hope I have the answer to your question.  Before the scissor crossing had any wiring attached, all four crossings were isolated, both with cuts in the rails and with cuts on the copper clad sleepers.  An ohm meter measuring across each and any of the four crossings gave a zero reading.

 

I have spent the last two hours soldering up the four crossings to the six SPDTs on the four Tortoises.  I have yet to wire up the Tortoise motors so I have not been able to test the wiring.  However, I have checked off all the instructions on the Guild technical paper and they should be correct.  I don't believe I can post a copy of the Guild's diagram, etc. due to copyright.

 

Perhaps this afternoon I can wire up the motors and install the module.

 

Bonne chance!!

 

Paul

Hmm, we seem to be slightly at cross purposes Paul.

 

Physically, there are 8 crossings on the formation - 6 Vs and 2 Ks. The two Ks and their adjacent Vs (2 each) seem to be integrated into single units, so are your "four crossings" the two integrated V/K/V combos and the two separate Vs on the diamond?

 

If so I think there might be a problem getting the two combos switched from the motors without creating shorts. If I'm right then a frog juicer might be the answer in this case.

[N15class]

I wired mine following the guilds plan without a problem. I could copy the diagram if you would like.

[Jintyman]

Paul,

 

I’ve been travelling around the country ove4 the weekend, Pendon on Saturday and Didcot yesterday, shame that driving 137 miles on motorways takes 4 hours in Britain today. Whilst both visits were very enjoyable, the travelling was so disagreeable as to make me doubt my sanity... and today I need to go to Warwick for work...

 

Anyway, looking at your scissors, it would appear that the k crossing is integral with the two v crossings, meaning that you have two “triangles” and two v’s to change polarity of, which from memory isn’t what the guild diagram covers.

 

I am sure that it is possible to determine these polarities from the tortoises, maybe with an added relay. Other alternatives exist, such as a frog juicer (there will be some smiles at reading me posting that!) or cutting rail breaks to isolate the k crossings.

 

I’ll have a ponder over my elevenses before heading out to do battle with the woeful transport system.

 

Best

Simon

 

 

No Smiles Simon, my prior comment was 'tounge in cheek'!!!!

 

I've seen a Marcway scissors before and as you've noticed (as well as a couple of others) the 'K' crossings are wired with the adjacent vees, so it's the two 'K' crossings and the adjecent Vees need wiring and switching together and then the two crossing Vees. Hence why I suggested a Frog Juicer in the first place, mainly because I'm carp at wiring and electrics.

The last one I saw wired up was utilising 4 x Tortoise turnout motors and one frog juicer, and he had all the motors running off one switch, so all switched to the curve, or all switched to the straight at the same time.

 

Hope that helps in some way.

 

Jinty

[3 link]

Other alternatives exist, such as a frog juicer (there will be some smiles at reading me posting that!) or cutting rail breaks to isolate the k crossings.

 

Best

Simon

First of all Simon I did not smile, it was trapped wind, honest : )

 

Anyhow I copped out and went down the juicer route because my knowledge of anything electrical is zilch... Below is the gadget that has been worth every penny of the £6.25p they each cost or 3 for about £16. Just solder the 3 wires and bingo. The outside slip which could of been a nightmare to wire up, required just two little juicers to get to work without a single problem. I know a chap who has the same outside slip and uses some " rotary " switchy thingy to make it work!! Juicers are worth every penny in my opinion and have kept me sane when it comes to wiring. I brought mine from Gaugemaster, or some call it the Engine shed down in Sussex.

 

 

Mini juicer.

 

 

Outside slip.

 

Regards,

 

Martyn.

[3 link]

The wiring for the slip above was red to one K crossing, black to the other K crossing and then the two frogs on the left wired together to the green, and the same for the right hand side to the other green wire, simples.....

 

And I also use tortoise motors for the actuation of the blades.

 

Martyn.

Edited July 30, 2018 by 3 link

[Focalplane]

I am resting with a glass of rosé. Things are coming together slowly. Tomorrow?

[St Enodoc]

I am resting with a glass of rosé. Things are coming together slowly. Tomorrow?

Good onya, as some of us down here are reputed to say.

 

I think that David (Jintyman) has summed up the situation very clearly - use a frog juicer. I have a feeling that otherwise you will end up going round in circles chasing shorts that can't be cleared.

[N15class]

Surely if there are shorts a frog juicer won't cure them. It will only work with the appropriate sections isolated.

[St Enodoc]

Surely if there are shorts a frog juicer won't cure them. It will only work with the appropriate sections isolated.

If the crossings are truly isolated then the juicer should work. The shorts would arise from trying to use the switches on the motors to control the polarity, as there would be a conflict between the two vees when they should be at different polarities but are connected together - I think... 

[N15class]

If all sections are isolated the switches on the point motors and the two extra needed work well with on shorting. The switches pick up power from one rail and another point motor switch for the other feed.

The cross over cannot be set to both crossings at once as this will lead to it not working but I would expect that would happen with a juicer too. As you can't make a section both positive and negative at the same time.

[Simond]

Sorry, guys, the 175 miles from Folkestone to Warwick university took five hours and five minutes. There was a blockage at Dartford (vehicle fire?) and between the A3 and the M40 (incompetence & failure of planning in the DoT?) and so I ended up driving from Leatherhead to Northolt via Kingston, and getting on the M40 there. Having achieved this unpleasant and unwanted detour I was somewhat disappointed to read the signs indicating a 30 minute delay between J9 & J10 on the M40, so went cross country yet again. After my meeting I returned to kind friends outside Oxford where I’m staying tonight, and I noted a sign warning of 1h30m delays on the M25 between the M4 and A3. Frankly, if Brexit doesn’t do for our economy, the state of the transport system will. What a pathetic shambles. Rant over.

 

Anyway, I didn’t get to sort the solution, because I was driving...

 

But the meeting went well, and dinner with friends was excellent!

 

Best

Simon

[St Enodoc]

If all sections are isolated the switches on the point motors and the two extra needed work well with on shorting. The switches pick up power from one rail and another point motor switch for the other feed.

The cross over cannot be set to both crossings at once as this will lead to it not working but I would expect that would happen with a juicer too. As you can't make a section both positive and negative at the same time.

Peter I'll have to sketch this out again - I didn't get that result first time! I found that with one (but not both) crossover roads set, the K crossing complexes were each fed by one point in the normal position and one in reverse, hence the short.

[Focalplane]

Fell asleep on the sofa (was it that glass of wine or mere mental exhaustion?) and woke up at 2 am not knowing where I was!  If this is retirement living then I may have to give up scissor crossings!

 

But seriously, I think I am on the way to getting the wiring to work.  I did discover an error in my wiring before I gave up last night - at least now all four motors are doing what they should be doing.  As to the Vs and Ks I am hoping the Guild diagram and the Marcway design are truly compatible because that is where I could be undone.  Thank you for continuing the discussion without me last evening!

 

As to Simon's traffic problems, you have my sympathy because down here in July and August we do have problems as well, particularly on "changeover Saturdays".  When I was working a few years ago I needed to catch a train at Narbonne, normally 20 minutes easy drive, to get to Paris for a flight to Congo.  Being a Saturday I allowed plenty of time but it took 75 minutes and a detailed knowledge of back roads for me to arrive at the station just as the TGV was pulling in.  I managed to park the car and run to the platform, jammed my overnight case between the closing doors in order to gain entry.  My heart was still pumping in overdrive when the train pulled into Béziers half an hour later!  It may have been a reason why I finally opted for retirement!

 

More later, first I need some fresh air,

 

Paul

[St Enodoc]

Peter I'll have to sketch this out again - I didn't get that result first time! I found that with one (but not both) crossover roads set, the K crossing complexes were each fed by one point in the normal position and one in reverse, hence the short.

Well, I've spent far more time on this today that I should have - but whichever way I look at it I still come up against the fundamental problem that, if I follow the prototypically-allowable route settings (i.e. not setting both crossover routes together), I get a short at the V/K/V combo if one of the points connected to it is normal and the other reversed. The only way I can make it work using the point motor switches is to have just two routes - all points normal or all points reversed. Now, if this scissors is on the off-stage part of the layout that might be acceptable. Otherwise, I've come to a dead end now so I'll hand back to Peter, David and Simon to see if they can solve the riddle without resorting to frog juicers.

[St Enodoc]

Well, I've spent far more time on this today that I should have - but whichever way I look at it I still come up against the fundamental problem that, if I follow the prototypically-allowable route settings (i.e. not setting both crossover routes together), I get a short at the V/K/V combo if one of the points connected to it is normal and the other reversed. The only way I can make it work using the point motor switches is to have just two routes - all points normal or all points reversed. Now, if this scissors is on the off-stage part of the layout that might be acceptable. Otherwise, I've come to a dead end now so I'll hand back to Peter, David and Simon to see if they can solve the riddle without resorting to frog juicers.

I've now looked at the G0G manual (I should have done that at lunchtime, not leaving it till nearly bedtime!), page 8-3-12 at http://www.gauge0guild.com/manual/08_3_point%20wiring.pdf. This shows how to wire the V/K/V combos solely through the switches on both point motors - a bit like flip-flop switching on your landing light I suppose. I hadn't thought of this and it looks very elegant. If you are following this diagram, Paul, all should be well. Bonne nuit!

[Focalplane]

I've now looked at the G0G manual (I should have done that at lunchtime, not leaving it till nearly bedtime!), page 8-3-12 at http://www.gauge0guild.com/manual/08_3_point%20wiring.pdf. This shows how to wire the V/K/V combos solely through the switches on both point motors - a bit like flip-flop switching on your landing light I suppose. I hadn't thought of this and it looks very elegant. If you are following this diagram, Paul, all should be well. Bonne nuit!

 

Yes, that is the plan I am working on.  So far my trouble shooting has resolved some issues but the main problem is that there seems to be no easy way to determine which terminal to use on the internal SPDT Tortoise motors.  Terminals 4 and 5 are the poles of the two internal switches and 4 switches between 2 and 3, 5 between 6 and 7.  Terminals 1 and 8 are connected to the motor.  As I am using 6 switches and four of them are in series, the number of possible combinations is quite high.  I had really hoped there would be help on the internet but so far no luck.  So I am working systematically through the terminals using an ohm meter.  I think I have the straight through wiring organized.

 

By the way, I check each route using a Dapol coach with lights.  It's very easy to find the offending "frog" which can then be double checked with the multimeter.

 

Another issue has emerged, that of a lot of friction on the movement of the tie bars.  I am going to have to replace the thin piano wire with a much more robust thickness.  This isn't required with Peco points once you have removed the centre spring.

 

I would be doing scenery if I had simply used two Peco crossovers in tandem!  Wishful thinking probably.

 

I have a week to get this little project solved, then a quick trip to the UK is planned.

 

Paul

[daifly]

I've now looked at the G0G manual (I should have done that at lunchtime, not leaving it till nearly bedtime!), page 8-3-12 at http://www.gauge0guild.com/manual/08_3_point%20wiring.pdf. This shows how to wire the V/K/V combos solely through the switches on both point motors - a bit like flip-flop switching on your landing light I suppose. 

 

Wasn't that mentioned a while back here?

Dave

[Focalplane]

Wasn't that mentioned a while back here?

Dave

 

Dave, yes, it was and yes I have been referring to it.  However, I was not sure about posting a link as it might not be available to non GOG members.  It's hard to tell when logged in as a member.

 

I just came across an annoying problem - a short in one of the Tortoise switches!  It does explain why one of the K frogs wouldn't work.  Luckily I have an extra, but a setback to put it mildly.

 

Paul

[Simond]

Hi,

 

Well, I have now had a look at the guild wiring diagram, and I think it’s fine, there’s no point (har har) in me reinventing the wheel. I thought it had the k & v frogs separated electrically but I see it is the same as Paul’s formation.

 

Have you now solved the issue by using a different tortoise?

 

The Marcway points have flexible switches, which take a degree more grunt to shift than loose heeled ones - I think you’ll have to beef up the operating wire to do that. I don’t think that affects the mechanical life of the tortoise, as it stalls when it stalls, but watch out for the movement of the output lever - if it is not enough, you will make a poor contact at the internal switches, and they may then have a limited life expectancy. You therefore need to judge the wire stiffness to allow a good range of movement of the tortoise, but to be stiff enough to press the blades home firmly.

 

Best

Simon

[Focalplane]

Hi,

 

Well, I have now had a look at the guild wiring diagram, and I think it’s fine, there’s no point (har har) in me reinventing the wheel. I thought it had the k & v frogs separated electrically but I see it is the same as Paul’s formation.

 

Have you now solved the issue by using a different tortoise?

 

The Marcway points have flexible switches, which take a degree more grunt to shift than loose heeled ones - I think you’ll have to beef up the operating wire to do that. I don’t think that affects the mechanical life of the tortoise, as it stalls when it stalls, but watch out for the movement of the output lever - if it is not enough, you will make a poor contact at the internal switches, and they may then have a limited life expectancy. You therefore need to judge the wire stiffness to allow a good range of movement of the tortoise, but to be stiff enough to press the blades home firmly.

 

Best

Simon

 

I think the bad Tortoise might be one of my Houston purchases - very early on in the history of the product.  I am not going to be able to do as much as I thought I would be able to these next days - a small crisis has emerged (can one have a small crisis, I wonder?)  But I need to get on with this project because otherwise I will have to start up the learning curve all over again.

 

Not only the stiffness of the Marcway points but also the friction between moving rails and fixed sleepers.  Circuitron do point this out and recommend stiffer piano wire.  I haven't seen any piano wire in my travels around southern France (remember, model shops don't even sell much paint!) and for that matter I've not seen a piano shop either.

 

More news when I have something to tell!

 

Cheers, Paul