why were the Metro-Vik Class 28s concentrated upon Barrow?

[russ p]

I know this is getting off topic but wasn't there also a proposal in the early 60s for a brush loco with an alco 251?

[The Johnster]

Except the engines were the other way around - 10800 had a medium/high speed engine, like an EMD but not a 2 stroke, the LMS twins a slower speed engine like an Alco.

 

Back to Co-Bo's....the Wonderoaf.  I wonder what made Hornby chose it for a model?

 

It was the 'latest thing' when Hornby Dublo introduced their model, which by the way was very good for the time, and was expected to be a successful and numerous class.  The high profile launch of the 'Condor' would have ensured that the loco would have been familiar to anyone living along it's route, the Midland main line from London to Leeds and Carlisle and the GSW from there to Glasgow, a good proportion of the nation's population!

[The Johnster]

More to the point, is why did they do a pretty awful job of the Co-Bo and especially the Deltic? The earlier Bo-Bo and 08 and all the steam locos were much better models.

 

I don't agree entirely.  The Duchess and A4 were as underscale and toy-like as the the Deltic/DP2, and the Metro-Vick was on a par with the concurrent Brush type 2 from Triang, which was not too shabby for the early 60s.  I do agree that the D8000 and Diesel Shunter were very good for the time

[john new]

I have a memory of reading somewhere that Meccano got badly shafted on the Co Co design. It was based on info' they had been given and then after they'd tooled up for their model the prototype design got changed for BR. Again a memory thing but that does gel with pictures I recall seeing of UK export locomotives; all suggesting the HD Co-Co body was based on an existing export design body shell they'd been advised would be also used for the UK production Deltic's shape.

 

The HD A4 and Duchess may not have been correct to scale but captured the essence of the prototypes for those of us around at the time.

[billy_anorak59]

 

Having said that, I don't know which came first, the Cuneo painting or the model.

 

Just an observation, but I'd say the Cuneo painting came first? The painting shows the original wraparound windows (I reckon), and the model has the 'as modified' set up.

Edited May 9, 2017 by billy_anorak59

[Holmesfeldian]

 

 

The 'Condor' itself continued after the Co-Bos with Class 24 haulage then Peaks before Freightliner swept it away.

 

Class 24s were used on the ConDor train from Aston in Birmingham to Glasgow

[Holmesfeldian]

I have heard from (elderly!) railway colleagues that the Co-Bos were actually a very good engine, i.e. very strong for a Type 2, I can't vouch for this one way or the other as they were taken out of traffic around the time I was conceived... 

 

Geoffrey Freeman Allen wrote, "Whether it was in response to a BR specification or whether the builders off their own bat decided to go for a 50,000lb maximum tractive effort I can't discover. No other entrant in the Type B, mixed traffic category of BR's original 1955 Pilot Scheme had such starting punch. Despite the slight rating superiority of its original 1,250 hp Mirrlees engie, the Brush Type 2 could muster only 42,000lb.

That high peak effort and its corollary of a continuous 25,000lb were the primary reason for the type's quaint, though not worldwide unique, arrangement of odd bogies. Only by resorting to five powered axles, with no idle wheels, could the designers achieve their target and at the same time keep the locomotive within BR's Type B parameters. The 97 ton Co-Bo was in fact markedly lighter than the 104 ton Brush effort. Another distinguishing feature of the high tractive effort was the small diameter of its wheels - 3ft 3.5" against a Brush Type 2's 3ft 7".

BR invited the Co-Bo's candidacy in the Pilot Scheme chiefly to evaluate a two-stroke diesel engine against the four stroke models adopted for all the other types. Theoretically, a two-stroke promised higher output per pound of engine weight because in the two-stroke cycle, each cylinder generates power at every revolution of its crankshaft, whereas in a four-stroke, the power comes from alternate revolutions. The difference also minimises temperature variations within a two-stroke engine's cylinders. The two-stroke also dispenses with cylinder head valves and their operating gear, but on the other hand, the means by which a two-stoke "scavenges", or scours the burnt gasses of each ignition from a cylinder by injected air fom a blower are less efficient than the processes in a four-stroke cycle.

On the face of it, the Crossley HSTVee 8 cylinder power unit looked an engagingly simple alternative to four-stroke engines. The power on offer from each of its eight cylinders was high, yet was obtained without turbo-charging or the many other mechanical complications of four-stroke engines. This itself was the source of much mechanical problems in traffic. Spring metal air inlet 'reed' valves were a constant source of problems as the brittle metal soon shattered under load.

[Holmesfeldian]

Here is correspondence I had with a certain individual whilst working on the Co-Bo World website in 2005...

 

"During my last few months working in the BRB Procurement Department, as well as reviewing a file about sending Claytons to Cuba in exchange for their class 47 clones I also reviewed one about the purchase of twenty diesel engines from English Electric - for re-engining the Metro-Vick Co-Bos!

 

These engines were actually purchased, but instead of being used for the class 28s they were used to re-engine the first twenty Brush type 2s to be converted from class 30s to 31s. 

 

For a file to have been in the BRB Procurement Dept records, the purchase must have been carried out by the British Railways Board, not the British Transport Commission. Consequently, because of the way the BRB worked, there would have been both Investment Committee and Supply Committee submissions seeking approval, initially for the investment in the engines and then for their purchase. BRB's investment procedures would have required - as part of the investment submission - a financial appraisal of the project, and this would have required a "pay-back" period for the investment. I believe, therefore, that at the time the replacement engines were purchased, a reasonable further life for the Co-Bos must have been anticipated - if it hadn't been, investment in replacement engines wouldn't have been forthcoming."

[russ p]

Ive heard this before but I was under the impression that the metrovics were to be re-engined with the EE 8CSVT of 1350hp the same as used in the NIR BO-BO hunslets

[TheSignalEngineer]

Class 24s were used on the ConDor train from Aston in Birmingham to Glasgow

See about half way down this page 

http://www.derbysulzers.com/24083.html

[Zomboid]

The principle of a naturally aspirated 2 stroke was certainly nothing new for rail applications at the time, and now most diesel locos on the British rail network are 2 stroke now (supercharged though, I think).

Seems that the baby went with the bathwater on that one, if only 2 stroke they tried was the Crossley. Which is not to say that 2 stroke would have been better than what we got in the end, but it's been a consistent failing on the railway to chuck away an idea if it doesn't work out of the box, no matter the reasons for that.

[chris p bacon]

The principle of a naturally aspirated 2 stroke was certainly nothing new for rail applications at the time, and now most diesel locos on the British rail network are 2 stroke now (supercharged though, I think).

Seems that the baby went with the bathwater on that one, if only 2 stroke they tried was the Crossley. Which is not to say that 2 stroke would have been better than what we got in the end, but it's been a consistent failing on the railway to chuck away an idea if it doesn't work out of the box, no matter the reasons for that.

The Napier Deltic engine is essentially a 2 stroke, admittedly it has one or two minor complications with it...

[ColinK]

If the CoBos were to be re-engined , then who is going to paint their model in large logo blue and fit it with a class 31 sound chip?

[Nearholmer]

Zomboid

 

I've often wondered why 2-stroke diesels didn't really make it in mainline loco applications in this country at this time, when they did elsewhere.

 

(I don't count Deltics ...... it would be like counting a Masarati as a practical car)

 

K

[BrushVeteran]

Was the only Co-bo to carry GFYE D5708? And the only blue one D5701 IIRC

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Both D5707 and D5708 were GFYE Phil and I think the picture displayed is actually of D5707.

[slilley]

 

Here is correspondence I had with a certain individual whilst working on the Co-Bo World website in 2005...

 

"During my last few months working in the BRB Procurement Department, as well as reviewing a file about sending Claytons to Cuba in exchange for their class 47 clones I also reviewed one about the purchase of twenty diesel engines from English Electric - for re-engining the Metro-Vick Co-Bos!

 

These engines were actually purchased, but instead of being used for the class 28s they were used to re-engine the first twenty Brush type 2s to be converted from class 30s to 31s. 

 

For a file to have been in the BRB Procurement Dept records, the purchase must have been carried out by the British Railways Board, not the British Transport Commission. Consequently, because of the way the BRB worked, there would have been both Investment Committee and Supply Committee submissions seeking approval, initially for the investment in the engines and then for their purchase. BRB's investment procedures would have required - as part of the investment submission - a financial appraisal of the project, and this would have required a "pay-back" period for the investment. I believe, therefore, that at the time the replacement engines were purchased, a reasonable further life for the Co-Bos must have been anticipated - if it hadn't been, investment in replacement engines wouldn't have been forthcoming."

 

 

If you read the minutes of the BR Board around 1966/67 you will fine something in there about this. In all likelihood you would then need to go back to the Supply Committee minutes of around that time to get further information. All this kind of material is at Kew.

[Phil Bullock]

Both D5707 and D5708 were GFYE Phil and I think the picture displayed is actually of D5707.

 

Many thanks ! Wasn't sure hence the question....

 

Phil

[jjb1970]

I think the two stroke engine vs. four stroke engine debate is one of those debates that is a bit over blown. Originally two stroke engines were seen as offering higher energy density than four stroke engines but that isn't necessarily true and some of the modern very highly blown four stroke engines are ahead of most two stroke engines on that score. A two stroke engine can dispense with inlet and exhaust valves, but the payoff if you take advantage of that potential is far less potential to optimise engine performance using variable inlet and exhaust timing. The cylinder head and timing arrangements of a two stroke engine can be a lot simpler but again, you lose a lot of potential engine controllability and performance optimisation. I've never found that the added simplicity of two stroke engines (noting that it is incorrect to assume that all two stroke engines are simpler than four stroke designs) never really translated into better reliability for medium and high speed engines although the conventional wisdom of four stroke designs offering superior efficiency generally was true. In fact the worst engines I ever had to work with were Detroit high speed two stroke engines, ghastly pieces of garbage. The really big engines are all two stroke but they're a completely different ball game from small high and medium speed engines.

[Andy Kirkham]

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/railway-artist

[Evertrainz]

The WAGR X Class used the same engine as stated, you can use this video to assess how the BR Vicks sounded: 

.

[D803Albion]

The Condor service got quite a lot of coverage at the time and seemed quite glamorous, some influence there? Did Cuneo's quite widely seen painting of them on the Condor have an influence? It featured on the Dublo catalogue and other publications.

 

IMG_0267.JPG

 

Having said that, I don't know which came first, the Cuneo painting or the model.

 

Either way, the Condor had given the MetroVicks a high profile

 

Always loved that artwork.

[rodent279]

A small correction, it wasn't "BR" but the "British Transport Commission" it also had nothing to do with "having a free reign"    we just did not have the money to be able to import large numbers of expensive locomotives into this country as we were carrying a huge amount of debt from WW2. Currency had to earned from exports not lost to imports.

 

It was similar for shipbuilding, during the 50's and early 60's we were reliant upon home produced ships but the yards did not invest when times were good, and so when restrictions were lifted purchase moved abroad to more modern yards.

I have a suspicion that if it had been left to it's own devices, BR/BTC would have quite happily settled for a fleet of class 20/37/40's. That would have handled 90% of traffic requirements-all except the heaviest freights & fastest passenger jobs.

I also wonder why a leaf was not taken out of the DB book-in both locos & MU designs from the 50's & 60's, engines & transmissions from different manufacturers were completely inetrchangebale. I think the V200's could, and did, have engines from 3 different manufacturers & and transmissions from 2 different suppliers. Surely if that was possible, loco designs could have been specified to have either Sulzer or EE engines, and EE or Brush or C-P transmissions, and be used interchangaably?

I suppose that did happen to an extent, in that the class 45 & 46's had different transmissions, & class 25's had AEI, GEC & C-P transmissions, but to my knowledge it was not interchangeable. And of course, some HST's have Brush traction motors & control gear, some GEC.

[rodent279]

The WAGR X Class used the same engine as stated, you can use this video to assess how the BR Vicks sounded: 

.

Does that have a Buchli drive?

[PenrithBeacon]

Just wondering why were the Metro-Vik Class 28s concentrated upon Barrow? I ask as Barrow never had any other diesel allocation?

Probably because there would be advantages on concentrating such a small class at one shed.

I get the impression that in the early 60s BR thought it had a temporary shortage of Type 2 power so it overhauled the Co-Bo s purely as an expedient measure. When the shortage was over the surplus Type 2 classes were withdrawn along with some of the Type 1 classes

 

Regards

[DavidLong]

UK Submarines of that era had Admiralty designed engines, IIRC.  I like the Fairbanks-Morse theory though, feels credible.  Oh, here's one now!

 

P1000677 (Small).JPG

 

Here's an ex-New Haven Co-Bo on the Maine Eastern Railroad in October 2012. Ran from Brunswick to Rockland but sadly no longer operating as the state of Maine didn't renew the operating contract in 2015. Seemed a shame as the Down Easter from Boston to Portland was extended to run to Brunswick in November 2012, about four weeks after our visit.

At Rockland station

 

 

 

At Rockland loco facility

 

 

David