Class 205 in Conjunction with Kernow Model Shop

[davros909]

so did these 205 thumpers ever run as a four car unit ? 2 x 2 car i know they ran as a 6 car pictures of them linked up to other rolling stock would be great to see roll on the thumper cheerts .

[Gwiwer]

Never as a single 4-car unit. They would have been significantly under-powered. They were slow enough off the mark as a 3-car though could move well enough (albeit giving rather a lively ride) once they got going. On stopping services they seldom got that chance.

 

Most were built as 2H and most of those were augmented to 3H later. Four units (1119-22) never gained a centre trailer. 2x2H was uncommon but recorded. Later in their lives when withdrawals were under way they were "mixed and matched" to keep as many vehicles in service as possible which resulted in many extempore formations but a single motor coach with three trailers was never to my knowledge recorded.

[SRman]

The maximum formation that I have seen was nine cars, made up of 3 x three car units.

 

Those two car units that Rick mentioned became three car units of class 204 (3T units), with the ex-EMU driving trailers from the disbanded 'Tadpole' (class 206) being used as centre coaches, so he is absolutely correct in saying that they never ran as three car units of class 205.

[Gwiwer]

The longest train in service I have seen was likewise a 9-car rake but I have seen a 12-car e.c.s movement which was effectively two 6-car workings coupled after working up Oxted line services to Victoria (those were the days - diesels allowed into Victoria!) to make one empty train and minimise track capacity.

 

9-car formations could be seen on peak-hour Oxted line workings and might be formed of any combination of 205 and 207 units on an apparently random basis. Most divided at Oxted with 6 cars to East Grinstead and 3 to Uckfield; some ran complete to East Grinstead but so far as I can recall no 9-car duties existed to Uckfield.

 

There was, for one summer, a 9-car DEMU formation rostered onto a Sunday afternoon Brighton - Victoria non-stop (as they then were) for "operational convenience". It was at the time necessary to swap units between St. Leonards and Selhurst at times and this was found to be the most effective way to do so rather than run the whole train up empty cars in addition to an electric on the passenger working. The units arrived from St. Leonards e.c.s. and drew looks of disbelief (and more than a few complaints) among those waiting and accustomed to an electric train being provided.

 

Most operations elsewhere were 2-car or 3-car. A few workings in and around Hampshire were 6-car sometimes with two units working Portsmouth - Southampton and one running beyond to Salisbury or vice versa. There were Salisbury - Reading stopping trains normally formed of a single 205 (which should always have been one of the "Berkshire" variety but wasn't always - they were treated as common-user with the "Hampshire" ones) and one 6-car working back to Salisbury to balance the stock working.

 

3-car units worked singly on most other services with the Southampton - Alton route always rostered for the remaining 2H units due to light loadings and steep gradients. Three units were required on that service and unless all four 2-car sets were available one duty was covered by 3H. One 2H was permanently assigned to Hastings - Ashford (originally covering the Lydd Town branch) meaning a maximum of three were available for the three Alton duties. 100% availability was seldom achieved!

Edited September 4, 2012 by Gwiwer

[Stevelewis]

October MODEL RAIL has a 2 page article which shows the latest Engineering Prototype in close up,

 

Noted in the write up is the fact that like the MLVs the headcode blinds will be directional white/red illuminated.

 

Article states due date JAN/FEB 2013

[Gwiwer]

Hmmm. While "square" (the SR term for double white blank) could be legitimate on the sharp end on an MLV it isn't on a Thumper which always displayed a numerical head code unless berthed or purely shunting off the main line. I realise it's tricky to arrange directional lighting if there's a fixed numeral at one end and this was one of the minor niggles with the Cep and 2EPB models but on balance I think I'd prefer the Cep arrangement and turn the unit by hand off-scene if required.

[kintbury jon]

Hmmm. While "square" (the SR term for double white blank) could be legitimate on the sharp end on an MLV it isn't on a Thumper which always displayed a numerical head code unless berthed or purely shunting off the main line. I realise it's tricky to arrange directional lighting if there's a fixed numeral at one end and this was one of the minor niggles with the Cep and 2EPB models but on balance I think I'd prefer the Cep arrangement and turn the unit by hand off-scene if required.

 

One of those no win situations. You could probably stick a pair of numbers over the double white blanks if needed. I don't like running the units with double reds on the front, the reason I quite like what Hornby did with the VEP.

Edited September 4, 2012 by kintbury jon

[Stevelewis]

I dont think you would actually get double reds at the front!

 

The indicator panel illumination is going to be directional according to the write up ( the same set up as the MLV) so red will show only at the trailing end

[kintbury jon]

I dont think you would actually get double reds at the front!

 

The indicator panel illumination is going to be directional according to the write up ( the same set up as the MLV) so red will show only at the trailing end

 

No but you do with the EPB and CEP.

[eastwestdivide]

On the double white blanks, "never say never" might be a rule of thumb. You did see it on ECS moves out on the main line, and occasionally (unusually) on branch shuttles, e.g. Strood-Maidstone. Here's a couple, one a 2-EPB passing Hoo Jn, and the other a 3-H in the platform at Salisbury (which may admittedly have changed to a number before it left)

 

And I don't think they used headcodes when the 2-EPBs worked the NLL:

 

But generally speaking it's very much the exception.

[davros909]

thanks for your info guys are many of you on here gonna buy more than one ? originally i wanted 2 connex versions to run a as a 4 car unit as i heard a centre coach would be done in the future to make a six car. but havent heard any news about it since . at present i link up my ceps with epbs sometimes , were thunpers hooked up to epbs? . some pics would be great thanks for your knowledge guys .

[Gwiwer]

i heard a centre coach would be done in the future

 

May I ask where you heard this please?

 

Kernow has always said that any possibility of a 3-car release at some future time will depend upon the sales of the 2-car ones. Nothing has ever been said regarding centre trailers only that I am aware of.

[davros909]

May I ask where you heard this please?

 

Kernow has always said that any possibility of a 3-car release at some future time will depend upon the sales of the 2-car ones. Nothing has ever been said regarding centre trailers only that I am aware of.

hi there your right i now remember the quote now and your correct if the sales are good a three car may appear i doubt they will sell an individual centre coach wishful thinking. i have just emailed them the same question i will report back if i hear anything new i so wanna run a 4 car connex thumper but it may not look right maybe a nse and a connex will be better running individually ohh the complications of ;iife lol cheers,

[Downendian]

 

Most operations elsewhere were 2-car or 3-car. A few workings in and around Hampshire were 6-car sometimes with two units working Portsmouth - Southampton and one running beyond to Salisbury or vice versa. There were Salisbury - Reading stopping trains normally formed of a single 205 (which should always have been one of the "Berkshire" variety but wasn't always - they were treated as common-user with the "Hampshire" ones) and one 6-car working back to Salisbury to balance the stock working.

 

3-car units worked singly on most other services with the Southampton - Alton route always rostered for the remaining 2H units due to light loadings and steep gradients. Three units were required on that service and unless all four 2-car sets were available one duty was covered by 3H. One 2H was permanently assigned to Hastings - Ashford (originally covering the Lydd Town branch) meaning a maximum of three were available for the three Alton duties. 100% availability was seldom achieved!

 

Rick - the Portsmouth Harbour To Bristol service was almost always two 3H units too. In the summer of 1975 one 3H was routinely put on the Stapleton Road to Bristol Parkway shuttle with the closure of the Wootton Bassett to Westerleigh Section of the South Wales line.

A pretty unusual roster for it- I'm sure Bath Road had nicked one!

 

Neil

Edited September 5, 2012 by Downendian

[Temeraire]

if the sales are good a three car may appear i doubt they will sell an individual centre coach wishful thinking.

 

I've already asked and got the negative answer! I'm sure if they promised the centre car later it would prompt many more orders for the two car one now? I would certainly place an order straight away but I'm not going to if I can't make it a 3 car later as that is how I remember them round these parts.

[Gwiwer]

My observations (and travel experience - once only!) of the Pompey - Bristols was that only a 3H was provided. Of course I didn't see every train but even using those trains locally in Hampshire it was obvious that they had become woefully overcrowded. I'm sure the SR authorities would have responded and perhaps squeezed a unit out of maintenance allocation to boost one of the rosters to 6H. Short platforms at Dean and Dunbridge then became a problem while Dilton Marsh has always been one but was worse with non-gangwayed stock.

 

Kernow has made their commercial decision based upon what they feel they can sell. I too would be very interested in a 3H but not a 2H-and-hope. One unit is on order though.

[Guest Phil]

were thunpers hooked up to epbs? . some pics would be great thanks for your knowledge guys .

 

Very much doubt it Davros. diesels and electrics did work in multiple, particularly the 1700 Waterloo-Salisbury / Soton which split at Basingstoke with the EMU going forward to Southampton, and the Crompton+TC going to Salisbury. Never heard of "Thumpers" multiing with anything elsein normal service.

[phil-b259]

Very much doubt it Davros. diesels and electrics did work in multiple, particularly the 1700 Waterloo-Salisbury / Soton which split at Basingstoke with the EMU going forward to Southampton, and the Crompton+TC going to Salisbury. Never heard of "Thumpers" multiing with anything elsein normal service.

 

As built the southern DEMU controls were incompatable with those of contemparary EMUs despite the apperence given by the mu jumpers and buckeye couplers. In the 80s however I believe one DEMU set was modified so it could work with EMUs but the project was not persued.

[eastwestdivide]

As built the southern DEMU controls were incompatable with those of contemparary EMUs despite the apperence given by the mu jumpers and buckeye couplers. In the 80s however I believe one DEMU set was modified so it could work with EMUs but the project was not persued.

Was that one modified set 1111, the refurbished 3-H? Rings a vague bell somewhere.

[Gwiwer]

As well remember that 2EPB driving trailer coaches have been used in 3R and 3T demu sets. In the former they were used as end vehicles with the cabs in use while they became the centre vehicle in the latter type with cabs locked out of use. I'm not certain what (if any) wiring changes were required to permit this use as there was no suggestion of the units being worked under electric traction.

 

In general the SR electric and diesel units could not work in multiple due to the very different acceleration and braking curves the two kinds of traction have. I'm sure one of our experts can also comment on whether or not it was possible - in theory at least - to control a demu via the27-way cable from an electric unit or EDL locomotive on electric power.

[4630]

As built the southern DEMU controls were incompatable with those of contemparary EMUs despite the apperence given by the mu jumpers and buckeye couplers. In the 80s however I believe one DEMU set was modified so it could work with EMUs but the project was not persued.

 

Was that one modified set 1111, the refurbished 3-H? Rings a vague bell somewhere.

 

1111 was the prototype refurbished unit. Amongst other changes, the control desks in both cabs were replaced to include a four position master controller similar to those fitted in 4VEPs, as opposed to the usual DEMU seven position type. The unit was capable of easy modification to run in multiple with electric units. Information from Southern DEMUs by Michael Welch published by Capital Transport.

 

HTH

[MRDBLUE17]

The 205 looks very nice from the review in Model Rail this month. I will await the NSE liveried models or a green with yellow panels as the only one I have ever seen was in the early 90's at swanage.

[davros909]

interested what people would think about three 2 car thumpers hooked up together , eg a connex livery . would it look wrong ? the price is wrong surely it always is lol . . i assume there would be quite a gap between coaches and i assume they never ran like that .

[SRman]

Using the existing Bachmann 2EPBs in multiple with each other (and also the 4CEPs and MLVs with the same arrangements), the intra-unit couplings maintain a close spacing, widening out on curves. I use Kadee #20 couplings on the outer ends of all of these units and they give a reasonable spacing between units. I think it would be a safe bet to say that Bachmann will use the same coupling arrangement within the class 205 units.

 

If Kernow do commission a centre coach (which I also sincerely hope will be sold separately to extend the two-car units), I would assume that the couplings would match the existing standard as well - in fact, that would be more than a 'safe bet' since any centre coach will have to match the existing driving coaches!

 

As far as running three two-car Connex units goes, it was entirely possible towards the ends of their lives when, as Gwiwer said earlier, they were mixed and matched in an 'anything goes' fashion to keep the fleet going, so, in my opinion, such a combination would not 'look wrong' at all.

[Ceptic]

Replica offer a bodgeable solution for a stop-gap centre trailer. (2nd. one down)

http://www.replicarailways.co.uk/ready-to-run-items/self-assembly