Alliance drops Pendolino plan as Southampton paths identified

[DavidB-AU]

Open access passenger service promoter Alliance Rail Holdings has dropped plans to procure Alstom Pendolino trainsets for its proposed London Euston – Blackpool North service. The Arriva subsidiary reports that it is now discussing with leasing company Eversholt the use of Class 91 locomotives and MkIV coaches which are currently operated by Virgin Trains East Coast.

 

Meanwhile, Network Rail has identified seven weekday return train paths which Alliance’s Grand Southern Railway could use to launch a proposed Southampton – London Waterloo open access service during the 2018 timetable. The operator would initially use Class 442 EMUs.

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/alliance-drops-pendolino-plan-as-southampton-paths-identified.html

[PaulRhB]

Are they building more 442's now First MTR have also said they are using them?

[DavidB-AU]

Are they building more 442's now First MTR have also said they are using them?

First MTR are only going to use 18 of them.

 

Cheers

David

[PaulRhB]

First MTR are only going to use 18 of them.

 

Cheers

David

That only leaves 6 units though to run seven paths a day, assuming they are using 10 cars for capacity that's three sets, realistically that's two in service and one in maintenance. Just doesn't seem enough to make a return. Edited June 20, 2017 by PaulRhB

[Legend]

Makes sense using 91s to Blackpool.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello all,

 

I understand the Mk4 stock was originally designed to allow the fitting of tilt equipment, but that this was not done when they were introduced as tilt produces only very marginal improvements on the ECML as it's a pretty straight Railway.

 

If they switch to the WCML, where tilt offers tangible benefits, is it feasible (or even possible) that tilt equipment can be retro-fitted?

 

With the Class 91s might they become the closest thing to a "squadron" APT-P...?

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Ben A

[woodenhead]

From the blurb they are doing line improvements rather than adding tilt, doesn't the tilt only come into it's own north of Lancaster?

[Zomboid]

From the blurb they are doing line improvements rather than adding tilt, doesn't the tilt only come into it's own north of Lancaster?

I notice tilt through Wolverton and Weedon, but that's about it south of Crewe - don't often go north of there. It's not exactly a twisty route south of the lakes, though.

[Legend]

Yes I thought tilt is really only useful in the northern stretches of WCML, which is why I thought the 91 and Mk4s unaltered was a good idea. As Ben says they were built for tilt capability, but would you install new gear on a 30 year old asset? Probably prohibitively expensive. No , I'm in favour of keeping it simple. Work on reliability and it's a nice trainset. Don't need tilt , presumably they just need to keep up with other traffic to secure their path

[28XX]

Why would any Londoner want to go to Blackpool?

[woodenhead]

Why would any Londoner want to go to Blackpool?

Venerable old soap stars returning home from award ceremonies.

[woodenhead]

Why would any Londoner want to go to Blackpool?

More likely no-one would sign off an open access Preston to London service and Blackpool offers something of an alternative, there will be plenty of people along that line who would appreciate a direct service to London.  There will also be people who use it to get from London to Milton Keynes as well as to Preston if the price is right and the comfort superior to a Pendolino.  I must say though Anglo Scottish services tend not be be as full as the Liverpool and Manchester services so there is capacity on the Virgin services which don't generally stop after Warrington so these trains will certainly take away from Virgin at Preston.

[Arun Sharma]

Why would any Londoner want to go to Blackpool?

O gauge modellers might well want to go to Tower Models in Blackpool as it is one of the very few actual walk-in shops selling 1/43rd scale items left in the country.

[bill badger]

On a purely selfish note, this is wonderful news. I tend to go very green on Pendolinos and it hasn't been unknown for me to have to make a dash for the toilets at Euston, or even on the train; motion sickness is no fun when you then have to sit through an all day meeting. I only ever go to London down the ECML now and view the extra drive to Skipton as time worth spending; lovely Mk IV, none pukey, direct trains from Preston / Manchester get my vote!

[D854_Tiger]

From the blurb they are doing line improvements rather than adding tilt, doesn't the tilt only come into it's own north of Lancaster?

 

Indeed, there are only a few places where tilt is necessary south of Crewe but, as things stand on the WCML you can't run at 125 mph without it, so those class 91s will be limited to 110 mph.

[Glorious NSE]

That only leaves 6 units though to run seven paths a day, assuming they are using 10 cars for capacity that's three sets, realistically that's two in service and one in maintenance. Just doesn't seem enough to make a return.

Maybe....

2x2 sets in service?

1 set spare?

1 set maintenance?

 

Say 1h 20m each way, plus 40 mins turnaround so 4 hours round trip - that should be enough stock for one every other hour, which isn't implausible for 7 return trips.

 

Whether it's worth all the bother is another thing, but clearly they think it is. I guess they can now tag the refurbishment of those units onto the main batch to get the re-tractioned? 

 

[frobisher]

That only leaves 6 units though to run seven paths a day, assuming they are using 10 cars for capacity that's three sets, realistically that's two in service and one in maintenance. Just doesn't seem enough to make a return.

Mind you, it does say "initially". As I understand it, First MTR will be using the 442s after they have been refurbished. They are workable "as is" at the moment, and can't all be refurbished simultaneously so could it be that Alliance will be using more than just the spare 6 to start with before First MTR bring their service plans for them into play. Then there's the 458's and 707's that will be retiring that will become available later.

[Zomboid]

707s won't be 100mph capable though, will they? Not sure about the modified 458s, but when they were new they showed up on the main line semi fasts at least to Alton & Basingstoke so they might be an option down the road.

[forest2807]

Why would any Londoner want to go to Blackpool?

Why would anyone at all want to go to London?

[Glorious NSE]

707s won't be 100mph capable though, will they? Not sure about the modified 458s, but when they were new they showed up on the main line semi fasts at least to Alton & Basingstoke so they might be an option down the road.

707s are supposedly 100mph units. You'd need to gut them and put a more appropriate interior in though! 

458s would be easier if you were looking at that route, a rebuilt mk3 ought to be a nicer experience than a 458 though.

 

How easy is it to add DC modules to AC units - there are several relatively young fleets that are coming up - 360s and 379s stand out - 360s could be maintained by Siemens...

 

 

 

 

[Legend]

707s won't be 100mph capable though, will they? Not sure about the modified 458s, but when they were new they showed up on the main line semi fasts at least to Alton & Basingstoke so they might be an option down the road.

707 about 590mph , at least the ones I remember. These were the days

[frobisher]

707s won't be 100mph capable though, will they?

I don't know if it's correct, but the Wikipedia page claims they are.

[Southernman46]

O gauge modellers might well want to go to Tower Models in Blackpool as it is one of the very few actual walk-in shops selling 1/43rd scale items left in the country.

Trouble is the fare is about the price of an O gauge loco ......................

[298]

More likely no-one would sign off an open access Preston to London service and Blackpool offers something of an alternative, there will be plenty of people along that line who would appreciate a direct service to London.  There will also be people who use it to get from London to Milton Keynes as well as to Preston if the price is right and the comfort superior to a Pendolino.  I must say though Anglo Scottish services tend not be be as full as the Liverpool and Manchester services so there is capacity on the Virgin services which don't generally stop after Warrington so these trains will certainly take away from Virgin at Preston.

Would they even be allowed to stop at Milton Keynes? Traditional paths and stops for open access operators aren't usually allowed to upset the competition, which is already provided by Virgin and LM.

[cheesysmith]

There are places on the south of the WCML that 125mph running is allowed without tilt, as the HSTs were allowed to run at these speeds.