MarcD Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I'm looking for a shortcut to building some 0-21 narrow gauge points. I originally thought about buying a cheep 00 gauge point and removing he sleepers. Then I thought it might be easier to just re gauge a EM/S4 point kit. Moving the rail apart by 3mm (or 2.12mm for S4). Can anyone see a reason that this is not going to work before I start wasting money? Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 What little track work I have done. I think you will better starting from the beginning. Most narrow gauge will be spiked flat bottom most RTR is bullhead. Making track is quite easy with the right gauges and of course you are not limited by what you can buy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 I've been learning about laying track at the club I've been attending, and very interesting it is too. They produced sections of straight EM track for a fiddle yard, by cutting surplus 16.5mm track down the middle with a Dremel and re-gluing it to a board. Looks horrible, but it DID produce a fiddle yard, toot sweet at minimum cost, using materials to hand. There was no attempt to re-gauge curved track, or points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) To be quite honest you can providing the parts allow set the gauge to whatever you require, what I would say is 1 Choose the parts appropriate to the scale/ gauge combination being used, ie I once built some 0 16.5 track using 7mm sleeper timbers and code 75 bullhead rail in 4 mm chairs, this looked wrong. Rail was altered to code 100 flat bottom spiked which looked far better 2 This may mean using individual components both for looks and to reduce costs 3 Work out the scale size of components required and source appropriately Edited July 1, 2017 by hayfield Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 To be quite honest you can providing the parts allow set the gauge to whatever you require, what I would say is 1 Choose the parts appropriate to the scale/ gauge combination being used, ie I once built some 0 16.5 track using 7mm sleeper timbers and code 75 bullhead rail in 4 mm chairs, this looked wrong. Rail was altered to code 100 flat bottom spiked which looked far better 2 This may mean using individual components both for looks and to reduce costs 3 Work out the scale size of components required and source appropriately I had thought of using a SMP/Marcway "EM36 36" POINT KIT COPPER CLAD L/H OR R/H NICKEL SILVER". Only problem is the rail is bullhead. I have a 3way kit but I think I should walk before running. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 You might be better using something like Templot to make custom track sizes (possible) and then using the individual components available from C&L to make the points up using seperate sleepers and chairs. Either that or editing a paper template and moving where the chairs sit and altering appropriately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
£1.38 Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 When you widen the gauge, everything should be longer. Its a bit like comparing an HO 1:7 point and a 4mm 1:7 point. You would expect the 4mm one to be longer, as well as wider because it is to a larger scale. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 SMP point kits can be built at 18mm or 18.83mm so moving them out to 21mm is moving the rails by maximum of 1.5mm each side. The rail weight shouldn't be an issus as its not moving standard gauge to standard gauge. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
£1.38 Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 You can't change the gauge without consequences. Here is a comparison to scale of an EM and 21mm gauge turnout Using exactly the same components for 21mm gauge you won't get a very good looking point. "Only" a few millimetres makes a big difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexAshton Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 You might be better using something like Templot to make custom track sizes (possible) and then using the individual components available from C&L to make the points up using seperate sleepers and chairs. Either that or editing a paper template and moving where the chairs sit and altering appropriately. Creating point templates in Templot is dead easy. You can set your own track gauge and crossing angles and move point timbers to wherever you want. If you've not built points before a good starting point would be 0 gauge copper clad point timbers and code 100 flat bottom rail both of which are available from Marcway. Building your own track is both satisfying and cost effective. It also allows you to design your layout the way you want it rather than being constrained by the geometry of a proprietary system. Good luck and we look forward to seeing the results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 I have templot but I'm not that good at drawing things out with it. I have used the 4mm Irish 5ft3 gauge settings as that is 21mm and came up with this. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
£1.38 Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) Narrow gauge is probably the most awkward in Templot as there are no presets for gauges etc. I think this is due to the tremendous variety etc. that is possible. To set it up properly you would need to set up a custom gauge in 7mm scale and set your sleeper length/spacing, rail size, flange gap etc. to match your prototype. If you post on the Templot Forum, there are probably others who can help a lot with that kind of thing. It is a bigger step than doing stuff in standard gauge, but once its set up, the rest should be relatively straightforward - especially as narrow gauge does not usually involve really complex trackwork. For the standard Templot 21mm gauge settings, you would have to use P4 wheels. At the very least, your template ought to have wider flangeways as I suspect P4 flanges would be underscale for 7mm scale. Edited July 1, 2017 by £1.38 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 I had thought of using a SMP/Marcway "EM36 36" POINT KIT COPPER CLAD L/H OR R/H NICKEL SILVER". Only problem is the rail is bullhead. I have a 3way kit but I think I should walk before running. Marc SMP kits are effectively a bag of bits of rail and sleepers, so are not really any different to buying the parts separately. Describing them as kits is a bit of an overstatement really! I had two EM plain turnouts and a three way in stock, and the plain turnouts were built on Templot plans using a different method to that in the instructions, and the three way became a single slip, still in EM, but they could have been any gauge! Templot isn't too difficult for producing plain turnouts. My single slip was drawn as two overlapping turnouts, and I drew the extra crossings in by hand on the printout, as it was easier than learning to do it properly! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Since the question is specifically about producing narrow gauge points from a smaller-scale kit of parts, 009 on N gauge track just looks wrong, as does 0n16.5 on 00 track, because the sleeper spacing etc is wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 Have created a 7mm version as the wheels will be standard gauge 7mm wheels on 3ft axles. I have also found out that I can create points as .dxf files do I can inport them in to autocad and clip them together. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2017 I'm looking for a shortcut to building some 0-21 narrow gauge points. I originally thought about buying a cheep 00 gauge point and removing he sleepers. Then I thought it might be easier to just re gauge a EM/S4 point kit. Moving the rail apart by 3mm (or 2.12mm for S4). Can anyone see a reason that this is not going to work before I start wasting money? Hi Marc, As others have suggested, it will be much easier to start from scratch rather than try to re-gauge and rebuild existing pointwork. But before you can do anything you have to decide what wheels you will be using. If you are modelling in 7mm scale the correct option is to use 0 gauge wheels. However, many folks model narrow-gauge by using the wheels from a smaller scale. For example using 00 wheels on 16.5mm narrow-gauge in 7mm scale. The choice of wheels determines the flangeway dimensions for your 0-21 pointwork. If you build them with 0-gauge flangeways for 0-gauge wheels, 00 wheels will drop in the crossings with a big bump. If you build them with 00-gauge flangeways for 00-gauge wheels, 0-gauge wheels won't run through them. Once you know your wheels and flangeway settings, it is quite easy to print a template from Templot and build a turnout using copper-clad. Easier than trying to rebuild something else. regards, Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 I had thought of using a SMP/Marcway "EM36 36" POINT KIT COPPER CLAD L/H OR R/H NICKEL SILVER". Only problem is the rail is bullhead. I have a 3way kit but I think I should walk before running. Marc Marc I guess you could use it as a basis, simply because you have copperclad strip and rail, but as has been said its far easier to alter Templot to give you the correct sleeper lengths, and adjust sleeper size and spacing's to suite. Join Templot club, plenty there who will be happy to advise Marcway sell copperclad strip in differing widths, so buy the appropriate size, Marcway and Peco sell flatbottom rail, again chose the correct size Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 The wheels I'm going to be using are 7mm scale so I have altered the flange ways on the new version. So far drawn out a curved point and two straight ones. Marc The wheels I'm going to be using are 7mm scale so I have altered the flange ways on the new version. So far drawn out a curved point and two straight ones. Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 The wheels I'm going to be using are 7mm scale so I have altered the flange ways on the new version. So far drawn out a curved point and two straight ones. Marc The wheels I'm going to be using are 7mm scale so I have altered the flange ways on the new version. So far drawn out a curved point and two straight ones. Marc Mark I would use 7 mm scale sleepers and code 100 rail, code 75 or 82 just looks wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 1, 2017 Hi Marc, Using 0-Gauge wheels, I suggest you start from the 0-MF standard (31.5mm) and subtract 10.5mm. So the result is: gauge: 21.0mm check gauge: 19.5mm crossing flangeway: 1.5mm check span: 18.0mm wheels back-to-back: 18.5mm I have made you a quick file in Templot, attached below. 9ft switch with 1:5.5 crossing gives you around 4ft radius. Easy to curve it or modify it to whatever you want. Using small flat-bottom rail section, such as 00 code 100 (1.3/4" head, 3.1/2" foot). Timbers 10" wide (as sleepers): Here's the .box file: 0_21_for_marc.box p.s. the flat-bottom rail foot shows only on the printed output, not the screen, and only for background templates, not the control template. regards, Martin. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcD Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 Brilliant thank for the drawing Marc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Don't forget that Karlgarin do a special 7mm scale code 100 rail for light/narrow gauge models – it has a wider foot and chunkier head than 4mm scale version and does look heaps better, if you can get it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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