Water - can real water actually be used on a model?

[MarshLane]

Evening all,

Well what with one problem or another, I seem to be being thwarted in getting any actual modelling done at the moment, so I've been using the time to plan and consider various aspects of my layout (which has yet to actually be laid!). I came up with the idea of having a small canal scene, or perhaps a water mill in one part, but that then led me on to a different train of thought - WATER!

 

In variably as modellers, we all use different things to create the illusion of water - be it varnish, water style lookalike products that dry etc - but can real water actually be used for a layout - allowing boats to float, a canal lock to actually work, or a water mill to be powered by a wheel that is being turned by real water?  Obviously there are ways of doing it as some of the larger layouts (such as that magnificent example in Berlin) have achieved it, but they have a large amount of money at their disposal, along with lots of people to make it happen!

 

So on a smaller scale, regardless of the scale, or the reason why, is it feasible to use real water, and how could it be done.  Presumably its going to involve some kind of a plastic tank, and also a way of circulating the water (akin to a small fish pond pump I guess) to avoid it stagnating, but are there any stumbling blocks?  How can we make our homemade scenery meet and work with real water?  There's probably a thousand other questions as well, but a quick search through rmWeb 'Search Facility' hasn't produced any threads or similar questions.  Has anyone on here tried it before? Was it a success or a failure? Are there things you'd do again? 

 

For me, this is just a throw it out there question and see what comes back at the moment ... but I'm pondering (excuse the pun!) as to if it viable, why not try it.  We go to great lengths make things look realistic in almost every way, surely this is just one more aspect?  Surely if we can make cars move with small radio controlled motors, canal barges should be no different?

 

Thoughts and comments - constructive please! - are welcomed .....

 

Rich

[Dunsignalling]

I have seen real water on the odd layout in the past but, oddly, it doesn't look terribly convincing, especially when it's moving. 

 

A canal, with still water, should be better, especially as it won't be a big expanse. If you can manage working locks, brilliant.

 

The biggest problem, from what I gather, is keeping the stuff where it's wanted and away from where it's not. 

 

 

John

Edited July 25, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[forest2807]

You can't scale down ripples or waves. Personally I don't think it looks good at all.

[Kris]

Model water wheels powered by water look wrong. Water's movement just does not scale so the flow and movement of the water over or under the wheel is out of scale of the supposed model. 

[Horsetan]

See the incoming / outgoing tide on Tollesbury Quay....

[phil-b259]

You can't scale down ripples or waves. Personally I don't think it looks good at all.

Quite so. While I know the likes of Miniatur Wunderland have it (and have boats traveling through it), on most layouts static water looks better. Granted it doesn't move so could be thought of as odd if modelling say, a seaside beach, but then agin people don't stand still for hours on end nor do trains pull up and nobody move on the platform etc.

Edited July 25, 2017 by phil-b259

[BlackRat]

Add into the mixture......wooden baseboards, scenic formers, and electricity and.......

 

It can be done ......buts is rarely convincing and more trouble than it's worth......

[Dava]

There was a layout at Weston on Trent the other year with working waterfall, canal lock, boats etc which was entertaining [rather than realistic], but the whole layout was built around keeping the water where it was meant to be.

 

Dava

[Chrisr40]

I think there was a layout on one of the old BRM dvd's called Newcastle by the water. That had real water on it. I remember it because my eldest son was always soothed by this DVD and Tony Wright's voice when he was teething ( my son that is not Tony)

 

Chris

Edited July 25, 2017 by Chrisr40

[MarshLane]

Hi guys,

Wow didn't expect so many replies in such a short space of time!!

 

I have seen real water on the odd layout in the past but, oddly, it doesn't look terribly convincing, especially when it's moving. 

 

A canal, with still water, should be better, especially as it won't be a big expanse. If you can manage working locks, brilliant.

 

The biggest problem, from what I gather, is keeping the stuff where it's wanted and away from where it's not. 

 

 

John

 

To be honest that was one of my thoughts, being a canal, the only ripples you see are from the wind (or a boat passing) so in theory at least, getting the visual right should be easier, but I think you make a very valid comment, keeping it where it should be...

 

There was a layout at Weston on Trent the other year with working waterfall, canal lock, boats etc which was entertaining [rather than realistic], but the whole layout was built around keeping the water where it was meant to be.

Dava

 

Thanks Dava - id love to do some research into what they did and how, if anyone can identify the layout, or remember its name?

 

I think there was a layout on one of the old BRM dvd's called Newcastle by the water. That had real water on it. I remember it because my eldest son was always soothed by this DVD and Tony Wright's voice when he was teething ( my son that is not Tony)

Chris

 

 

Another one to go have a dig around on!  Thanks.

 

Like I say, it was more a random question, but the more I get to think about it, the more I'm interested in having a play to see whats doable, as and when I have time of course! The big question is where does one start I guess....

 

 

Quite so. While I know the likes of Miniatur Wunderland have it (and have boats traveling through it), on most layouts static water looks better. Granted it doesn't move so could be thought of as odd if modelling say, a seaside beach, but then agin people don't stand still for hours on end nor do trains pull up and nobody move on the platform etc.

 

Yes those are all valid points.  Its all a case of where do you draw the line I guess.

 

Rich

Edited July 25, 2017 by MarshLane

[eastglosmog]

I think the main problem is the meniscus at the edge (the bit of the surface that curves upwards at the contact with the edge of the channel).  This is impossible to scale down.  It is scarcely noticeable in a real canal or river channel, but if you fill a 4mm scale channel with water, you will certainly notice it, especially if you have reeds or other water plants.  Also water droplets will not scale down, so the streams of water coming through the paddles in your model lock will not look anything like the real thing.

[cal.n]

Agree with points above, if you wanted a clear liquid with a low enough surface tension to look acceptable against banks and when flowing, it would probably evaporate before long.

 

A little tangent, but even when water is used in filming scale models for Hollywood (e.g Titanic, Pearl Harbor) its all filmed at half speed so the ripples look like waves and a special toxic compound is used instead of water to have low enough surface tension as to not form a meniscus as previously mentioned which would ruin the effect. Both of which aren't possible on a layout.  

Edited July 25, 2017 by cal.n

[Andy Hayter]

Really regurgitating what others have said the problems of water is that while you can scale down the things that we see - river banks, water wheels, boats etc. - you cannot scale down the things we cannot see - acceleration under gravity and surface tension.

 

So falling water on a 1:76 scale layout falls like water on a 1:1 layout. because gravity pulls it down at full scale and not 1:76.  Where water breaks down and forms droplets, those droplets stay at 1:1 scale and not 1:76 because surface tension cannot be scaled down.

 

Over 20 years ago a neighbouring club turned up at an exhibition with a layout and a canal filled with real water.  A barge had been constructed that shuttled up and down the canal - I seem to remember it was sat on a wagon chassis that ran on a piece of track under the water.  I cannot remember now how it was induced to move through the water.  To be fair when it was set up on the Friday night it did not look that bad.  [i think the reason being that the "barge" was moving slowly and being heavy and fixed firmly to the track did not bob around like a plastic duck in the bath.]

 

On Saturday morning when we all arrived to start operations in advance of the punters, there were 2 problems.

1.  There was no water in the canal.

2.  There was a lot of water (probably around 2-3 litres) on the exhibition hall floor.

[TonyA]

Back in the 1960s, I had a Faller model of an overshot waterwheel with a reservoir underneath and a pump in a hill at the back.

 

Whilst it was fun, it was also noisy, messy and unrealistic. 

 

Tony

[RosiesBoss]

G'day, all,

 

I have believed for a long time that, on any exhibition layout, there should be something moving nearly all the time, as human eyes are drawn to movement. On my "Gennigael" terminus to fiddleyard layout, this function is provided by a slightly modified Faller fountain. This is now using its third pump since installation in 2001. In the context of a well-attended show, the pump is not excessively loud. The MDF baseboard into which the fountain was installed is still as good as new.

 

When displayed, the fountain never fails to catch the attention of children and their parents.

 

Details of the layout are here:http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83929-gennigael-a-fictional-mid-wales-branch-terminus/.

 

 

Regards,

 

Rob

[pete_mcfarlane]

Leighton Buzzard is the best known example of a layout with real water.

 

Starting at 13:20

 

[Andy W]

Would it be necessary to drain down the layout between operating sessions to avoid dust (or dead insects) falling into the water and floating unrealistically on the surface?

The Black Country canal system was in a highly unattractive and polluted state by the 1960s but I doubt you could pass off something with six legs as a rather dirty swan, or a dead dog (not unknown on the prototype).

[MartynJPearson]

Water shares the same two characteristics as paint, glue and electricity...

 

1) It will quite happily go where it wants to go, not where you want it to go.

2) When 1) happens, it normally means trouble.

 

Some other thoughts...

 

* You may well want to colour the water to get the right impression - particularly the suspension of sediment in canal water.

* Evaporation is likely to lead to a build up of scale, unless you use distilled water or live in a soft water area.

* The container needs to be watertight, and remain that way. Any joints over time may fail.

* What will fall in it? If it is right alongside the railway, you can guarantee that a derailment at some point will see stock heading for a swim. That's sod's law!

 

Phil Parker has an article in this month's BRM where he makes a model of a boating lake. That looks pretty convincing to me and while the materials are more expensive, I'd have thought in the long run it would be easier and less frustrating.

['CHARD]

Leighton Buzzard is the best known example of a layout with real water.

 

Starting at 13:20

 

 

It wasn't clear (laughs) to me whether that was real water or not - as no active use was being made of it.  

 

Unfortunately, the industrial narrow gauge was being operated at warp factor speeds too.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The surface tension problem could be tackled with a powerful surfactant. Long out of the loop on this kind of thing, but a favourite in my wet lab days was branded 'Nonidet' and versions are still available.These compounds need careful use to avoid foaming. Put water in container on layout, allow to settle, pour a very small quantity onto water surface where it will film over very quickly and eliminate the meniscus. Disposal may well be controlled nowadays.

 

In the bad old days a demo of these things was to take the industrial grade surfactant to a location with ducks floating on the lake, pour the pint bottle onto the surface, and then watch as the ducks abruptly sank as the surface film reached them and totally wetted their feathers destroying their bouyancy. Much flappy and foamy exiting of the water ...

 

The naughty boy job was to spike the shampoo of your enemy at the sports club with such a compound. The poor fellow would be in a foam choked shower still trying to rinse out the lather long after all the hot water was used...

[eastglosmog]

The surface tension problem could be tackled with a powerful surfactant. Long out of the loop on this kind of thing, but a favourite in my wet lab days was branded 'Nonidet' and versions are still available.These compounds need careful use to avoid foaming. Put water in container on layout, allow to settle, pour a very small quantity onto water surface where it will film over very quickly and eliminate the meniscus. Disposal may well be controlled nowadays.

 

In the bad old days a demo of these things was to take the industrial grade surfactant to a location with ducks floating on the lake, pour the pint bottle onto the surface, and then watch as the ducks abruptly sank as the surface film reached them and totally wetted their feathers destroying their bouyancy. Much flappy and foamy exiting of the water ...

 

The naughty boy job was to spike the shampoo of your enemy at the sports club with such a compound. The poor fellow would be in a foam choked shower still trying to rinse out the lather long after all the hot water was used...

Just had a look at the Safety data sheet for this stuff.  Says may cause long lasting harm to aquatic life and don't release to the environment. Wear gloves, face mask and protective clothing.

Don't think I would recommend using it on the model!

[Joseph_Pestell]

The naughty boy job was to spike the shampoo of your enemy at the sports club with such a compound. The poor fellow would be in a foam choked shower still trying to rinse out the lather long after all the hot water was used...

 

Created a similar effect in a hotel  bathroom in Spain earlier this year. Soft water plus bubble bath plus jacuzzi button is not a good combination.

[Nick Holliday]

Dave and Shirley Rowe did another layout, even more water based, called Exebridge Quay and an article can be found via Google at original.trainlife.com, although described as HO!

Their possible solution to the meniscus problem seemed to be to have the quayside wall just dipping into the water, with the actual fibre glass tank hidden behind.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Says may cause long lasting harm to aquatic life and don't release to the environment. Wear gloves, face mask and protective clothing...

 That's just eco-weenie opinion. It was poured into rivers generating vast blocks of foam in the past, and we are all still alive. Even the fish have come back now we have somewhat cleaned our act up.

[katwigan]

I have just posted some photos on my 'wigan wallgate ' layout thread of a water tank that contains Woodland Scenics Murky water product, yes there is an evident 'meniscus' however with the murky appearance of the water it isn't that obtrusive. I think it looks better than using some muddy water from a puddle and i shall certainly be using it in the canal (when i get to that bit )

 

 

The layer in the tank is 6 or 7mm deep not that you can really tell the murkiness however is still transparent to some degree.

Kevan