Scaleforum 2017 Stoke Mandeville Stadium, Aylesbury - Saturday September 23rd Sunday September 24th

[Siberian Snooper]

I missed last years show, the first that I have missed since I started attending at the last Leatherhead show, I was in Vancouver waiting to fly home having gone coast to coast across Canada.

I didn't think the show was greatly different from the previous shows at Aylesbury.

[Nimbus]

When P4 is good it is outstanding but I suspect that many people find the standards and skills required to meet them very challenging. This I suspect is why some Scaleforums have layouts which don't run too well.

There are also those modest types who set out with no intention of exhibiting, but who produce such outstanding domestic layouts, that once one or two photos escape, find themselves persuaded to bring their creations to Scaleforum. Maybe they recall that it was someone's similar contribution at a previous event that had inspired them to get stuck in. But, not being an 'exhibition' layout may put the operating position in a sub-optimal location relative to onlookers, and the environmental rigours of transport and a new operating venue may reveal problems which are just not there to solve at home.

 

The Nim.

[John_Miles]

My original post was in response to the preceding comments about the declining attendance at Scaleforum and the fact that RailEx attracts more people. If you want to find out why people are not attending, you need to hear from people who used to attend but no longer do. While some reasons maybe non-controversial such as health, age, most of the others are going to be negative. Nevertheless, if you are going to have a valid enquiry then you need to hear from such people. Preferably you need to hear from a large sample of such people to get a valid response. My views represent those of 9 fine scale (but EM) modellers, so only a small sample but as any statistician will tell you, some data is better than none. We meet on Wednesdays for our modelling sessions and in the past we have always held a discussion about who was going to Scaleforum. The last time we went was either last year or the year before (apologies for my poor memory) when just 3 of us went. We were disappointed for the reasons I stated above. Interestingly, this year the possibility of going to Scaleforum was not even discussed. It has fallen off our agenda.

 

Getting angry about what I said is understandable but illogical. If you are going to tackle the problem of falling attendances you need to have some data to work with. It is no use listening to the converted because they will tell you all is well, as has happened in this thread. However, given the anger and vitriol in response to my post, I doubt that anybody else will dare to say anything negative which is a shame because this is an ideal forum for collecting a wide range of views.

 

A couple of further comments to get you all further incensed. Poor running - there has been an ongoing discussion about this in Scalefour Newsletter. One person has even resorted to using EM wheels, which to my mind negates the reason for using P4. Half finished layouts - there is a comment at the beginning of this thread promoting the show and saying there will not be many unfinished layouts so it would seem it has already been recognised as a problem. And finally my most contentious post about the attitude of some P4 modellers. I have been fortunate enough to be associated with some 4mm EM layouts which have won best in show awards including at RailEx. Twice I have overheard comments from P4 modellers about the fact that the winning layout was only EM.

[UMinion]

So how do you address people not going to a show if they never even discussed it? If there was a discussion and an informed choice was made then that's useful. If it wad never on the radar then it's a bit useless.

 

There's an ubderlying anti s4 bias in your posts John and I think there might be an element of remembering the negatives and disregarding the positives. If your bias has spread to your group then your small data information is somewhat worthless. It's like asking 100 people if they think the prime minister is doing a good job is one thing. If you ask 100 people who are at the Labour Party conference then your data is flawed.

 

I mean there was at least one incomplete layout at expo-em north a week or 2 before. Did you make a fuss about that?

 

Who are these s4 modellers who derided em? Is your comment deliberately vague. It might get you incensed but if all things were the same but the em layouts you were asscociated with were s4 instead they would have been better. The track and, if you had them, larger steam locos would have looked better. No point saying it wouldn't.

 

Finally there's little point you banging on about poor running at the show if you never even bothered going is there? What do you gain from basing your point on heresay and rumour?

[10800]

 

A couple of further comments to get you all further incensed. Poor running - there has been an ongoing discussion about this in Scalefour Newsletter. One person has even resorted to using EM wheels, which to my mind negates the reason for using P4. Half finished layouts - there is a comment at the beginning of this thread promoting the show and saying there will not be many unfinished layouts so it would seem it has already been recognised as a problem. And finally my most contentious post about the attitude of some P4 modellers. I have been fortunate enough to be associated with some 4mm EM layouts which have won best in show awards including at RailEx. Twice I have overheard comments from P4 modellers about the fact that the winning layout was only EM.

 

For someone promoting the use of statistics you seem to be relying on cherry-picking. Yes there has been discussion about poor running in Scalefour News (and the problem with that is what exactly?). It's hardly a problem limited to P4 is it? Yet you don't seem to like 'one person' who is looking for a practical if maverick solution to his own situation - it is his train set.

 

Unfinished layouts - well, we've had views on both sides of that which is healthy. What can an exhibition organiser do to please everyone?

 

I was wondering when 'the attitude' of P4 modellers would come up. It does eventually in threads like this, even after 40 years. So, cherry-picking again, you seem to want to associate P4 modellers in general with those comments?

[Horsetan]

....What do you gain from basing your point on heresay and rumour?

More trolling experience? 

[Enterprisingwestern]

I find "unfinished" layouts interesting, especially if they re appear fairly regularly, it's like being invited to the builders house to see progress, and also very useful for pinching ideas at all stages of construction, and anyway, how do you tell a P4/EM/00/N etc set of baseboards apart?

Generally there is more to talk about than on a finished layout, all the underpinnings aren't covered over for one thing.

Perhaps I'm in the minority?

 

Mike.

[Echo]

My original post was in response to the preceding comments about the declining attendance at Scaleforum and the fact that RailEx attracts more people. 

You continue to compare Scaleforum with Railex. Why?

 

1. Scaleforum is essentially an annual get together for Scalefour members, to which the general public is invited too. Railex is a public exhibition deliberately designed to entertain the general public - you are comparing comparing chalk with cheese.

 

2. There are inevitably only a limited number of P4 layouts to call upon. The number of P4 modellers is quite small in relation to railway modelling in general and many layouts are not built for exhibition. Railex has no limitations on scale or gauge so can inevitably call on a much wider range of layouts.

 

3. No one really wants Scaleforum to be heaving with people. The unique quality of society events like Scaleforum or Expo2mm is that everyone can get in close, talk to exhibitors etc in a relaxed atmosphere.

 

4. As I understand things, there was no issue with reliablilty at this year's Scaleforum. Remarks suggest it was a very good show.

 

5. Unfinished layouts are deliberately invited to Scaleforum. They also appear at a number of other exhibitions, including EM events. The phenomenon of unfinished layouts is not confined to Scaleforum at all. If they are supposed to be finished but appear in a badly unfinished state then maybe there is room for criticism - though there may be good reasons for the issue even then. If a layout has been deliberately invited as 'unfinished' then I don't see a problem. Many aspects of layout construction are completely lost when a layout is finished and in full exhibition mode.

 

Despite anything you say to the contrary, my strong impression is that you have a deep hatred of P4 modellers for some reason. Why? I have attended a wide range of exhibitions and poor running is by no means specific to one scale or gauge. Indeed the worst layout at my large local exhibition this year was an OO one where almost every move was interrupted by stalling and/or derailments.

 

I often attend EM events and can assure you that even your chosen scale/gauge is not totally immune from problems. Neither are all EM events heaving with people.

 

As someone else has already suggested on here.  when are we going to see your layout? How about a few photos on here, at the very least? I don't mean that in a nasty way. I am genuinely interested.

[Re6/6]

 

Getting angry about what I said is understandable but illogical. 

 

Why should l get angry with the same old diatribe that is spouted off every year? You seem to be like a dog with a bone intent on creating a contentious atmosphere on here.

 

Frankly your condescending expression "you P4 people" was just plain rude, the sort of thing that makes my eyes glaze over. Perhaps you should have considered a little more polite construction to your comments (in the spirit of etiquette on here) and l might have been more interested in debating your opinions.

 

I model in various scales and gauges, for fun and enjoyment and l take none of it too seriously.

 

Perhaps these sum up the thoughts of the majority on this thread whilst reading your posts.  

Edited September 29, 2017 by Re6/6

[Miss Prism]

Generally there is more to talk about than on a finished layout, all the underpinnings aren't covered over for one thing.

 

Absolutely, and I hope you/we are not in a 'minority', Mike. I like to look underneath baseboards, to see how the underpinnings are supported and put together and the kind of materials used. I like to peer underneath lighting pelmets and gantries to see how many Watts are being used. I like to see the rears of layouts to see how fiddle yards and cassettes are constructed and arranged etc. (The rear of Howard Bolton's Minories was particularly interesting!)

 

As a 'barrier-free' zone (and long may it continue to be so), Scaleforum is an ideal environment for these kinds of exploration.

[UMinion]

Absolutely, and I hope you/we are not in a 'minority', Mike.

Seems to be a minority of 1 in this thread at the moment

[Captain Kernow]

Getting angry about what I said is understandable but illogical.

It's an opinion, Jim, but not as we know it.

[Captain Kernow]

Twice I have overheard comments from P4 modellers about the fact that the winning layout was only EM.

Shouldn't that be, 'Twice I have overhead comments from P4 modellers about the fact that the winning layout was 'only EM?'

 

Perhaps modellers of other scales/gauges also dismiss P4 as being 'it's only P4'. Who knows?

 

There are, according to reports, still two P4 modellers out there, somewhere in the world, who still follow the Studiolith/Protofour Fundamentalist path. We don't think that there are any more, and these two were last reported living under a hedgerow somewhere north of Milton Keynes.

 

I suspect that these were the two that you overheard.

[Captain Kernow]

I like to look underneath baseboards, to see how the underpinnings are supported and put together and the kind of materials used. I like to peer underneath lighting pelmets and gantries to see how many Watts are being used. I like to see the rears of layouts to see how fiddle yards and cassettes are constructed and arranged etc. (The rear of Howard Bolton's Minories was particularly interesting!)

I find the notion of 'unfinished layouts' an interesting issue, all joking aside.

 

I personally have no problem with seeing one or two unfinished layouts at exhibitions, especially if they are of the quality that 'Dewsbury' clearly is.

 

On the other hand, I suspect I would quickly lose interest if the unfinished layouts on display consisted of a circuit of Peco track on a bare baseboard.

 

Whilst I accept, therefore, the reasoning behind inviting unfinished layouts to shows, and sympathise with it (having done so at the RMWeb Taunton Members Day a number of times), I really don't like taking my own layouts to shows unless they are pretty much completed.

 

The only time that 'Callow Lane' has been to a show was in 2008, when it was pretty much just bare boards and a couple of structures. It's not been out since, because it still isn't finished. Frightening to think that it's been that long under construction.

 

Perhaps another way of looking at it would be to consider an art show or gallery. What if you went along, expecting to see a load of completed works of art, only to find that some of them just had a few brush strokes on the canvas?

 

It might well be interesting to see the artist at work, creating a masterpiece, but I suspect that the main reason that people go to art galleries is to see finished works.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Captain Kernow

[Lecorbusier]

I used to model in 00. I have always been interested in Kit building and scratch building and wanted to have a go at building my own track. I considered 00 finescale, EM and P4. In the end I plumped to have a go at P4. This is not a judgement on any of the other options ... just that I liked the look of the track and as I do not have a large collection of stock ... why not? Whether I will be any good or produce anything worthwhile - well the jury is definitely out on that one. However, many of the modellers who have been kind enough to offer help and advice through the society forum I find also model in the other 4mm options. In my experience (with no historical baggage attached) no one has ever been derogatory or judgemental about other's choices, nor have they ever been anything but helpful when one's out-put is not what might have been hoped for. The watch word tends to be - its your layout, and the help is there for you to try and achieve what you want to achieve.

 

Having your own preferences ... whether it is for P4 or EM, Diesel or Steam, pre grouping or British Rail etc etc is not the same as looking down upon or sneering on someone else for their preferences. I can only speak as I find over the past 3-4 years, and I have yet to come across anything purposely negative from scalefour members about either Em or 00. Thinking that an exceptional EM layout would have looked even better had it been P4 is surely the default position of someone who models in P4? simply out of preference.

 

Constructive criticism is normally as a response to a request in the pursuit of solving a problem or improving on a situation - in such matters the choice of words is important.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Railex is a general exhibition but is aimed at the finescale modeller more so than most other general shows, in fact I think for a few years I had one one OO layout while there was five P4 layouts!

 

In fact when I took on Railex and turned it into the show it has bee for the last 13 years I modelled it on Scaleforum, Expo EM and the MRJ show, plus Watford Finescale and the old Chatham show both these later two are no longer running or changed from what they were. So in fact Railex is closer to Scaleforum than most think as we do share most of the same traders, but don't have the large demo section found at Scalefourum, but have the same venue.

 

David

[Torper]

I really don't think that it's either healthy or useful to shout someone down just because he has a contrary opinion.  There is some validity in some of his points (that's a minority of two re unfinished layouts, UMinion) and unless you hear and can weigh up negative opinions it's quite difficult to improve an existing institution.  And I thought that if Scaleforum was to be compared to any other shows, RailEx probably wasn't a bad choice - it's directed at finescale modellers and it's at the same venue.

 

DT

Edited September 29, 2017 by Torper

[5050]

Part finished layouts often have fully finished stock on them and the lack of distracting scenery allows a better look at it.  Finished layouts can have half finished stock - which sticks out like the proverbial bandaged thumb.

 

Regarding running, I have seen some awful EM layouts over the years and some brilliant ones, at 'normal' exhibitions and at Expo's.  As a shining example of the latter Retford springs to mind - building that in P4 in the equivalent time would have been impossible so EM was definitely the right choice for Roy.

 

Attitudes by P4 modellers about other standards? I have experienced more anti-P4'isms from 'traditionalist' EM modellers than the other way round.  In the beginning I am sure that the new ex-P4-Society (soon to be Scalefour Society) founders wanted to form a joint society (or similar) with the EM Society but were sent away.  There are possibly still more EM Fundamentalists than P4 ones lurking around the nether regions of MK.

 

PLEASE do not let this post and thread sink into a P4 versus EM 'debate'.  I am merely responding to the dangling carrot hung out, yet again, by Mr Miles.  Something I very rarely do on forums.  However, I must congratulate him on his inate ability to stir up a variety of worms in tin-plated containers.

[PenrithBeacon]

There are, I fear, still some antagonisms between the EMGS and S4Soc. Not much anymore for which we should be thankful but it can be there. I think it's better to think of EM and P4 simply as a set of track and wheel standards, as indeed, their founders did all those years ago. It is perfectly possible, at shows up and down the land, to find layouts of stunning quality where the only difference between them are the track and wheel standards.

I was talking to the bloke who invented the word Scaleforum last Thursday night, one Mike Peascod. Mike's original idea was to call it 'Scale4um' but Ken York wouldn't wear it (I have a woolly memory of the conversation, down at Yorkie's shed), so 'Scaleforum' it became. I attended the first Scaleforum and a very small affair it was too. There wasn't much in the way of layouts or traders, there weren't many P4 layouts anyway, nor were there many specialist traders. There were the members who needed to learn from each other how to do this P4 thing, hence the concept of a 'forum'. Forwarding on 40-odd years the concepts behind P4 have been well and truly disseminated as have the techniques, and not just in 4mm, but in 2,3 and 7mm too.

It is this success in disseminating the skills and techniques of finescale modelling that has, I think, made the current format of Scaleforum less appealing. At that first Scaleforum demonstrations were a central and very different format for the event; now they are a commonplace. High quality finescale modelling was unusual then, now it is the normal course of events. Now, to a large extent, the only difference between an 00 layout and a P4 layout are the track and wheel standards.

Those early, founder members, of the Scalefour Society, wanted to change the world. Well they have, but now Scaleforum needs to change too. Change to make it relevant in a changed railway modelling world.

Regards

[Nimbus]

5. Unfinished layouts are deliberately invited to Scaleforum. They also appear at a number of other exhibitions, including EM events. The phenomenon of unfinished layouts is not confined to Scaleforum at all.

I once made a point of attending an ExpoEM event specifically because an unfinished layout was present. Still jolly glad I did, as it impressed itself indelibly on my memory. Retford.

 

The Nim.

[Torper]

 now Scaleforum needs to change too. Change to make it relevant in a changed railway modelling world.

 

It's all very well saying that it should change, but in what ways?  Have you any suggestions to put forward?

 

DT

[Lecorbusier]

Railex is a general exhibition but is aimed at the finescale modeller more so than most other general shows, in fact I think for a few years I had one one OO layout while there was five P4 layouts!

 

In fact when I took on Railex and turned it into the show it has bee for the last 13 years I modelled it on Scaleforum, Expo EM and the MRJ show, plus Watford Finescale and the old Chatham show both these later two are no longer running or changed from what they were. So in fact Railex is closer to Scaleforum than most think as we do share most of the same traders, but don't have the large demo section found at Scalefourum, but have the same venue.

 

David

Take your point but not sure I agree. I loved Railex but I have to say it seemed to me a very different beast. It had 19 layouts across 7 scales. It therefore had pretty broad appeal with something for a wider range of interests and was a show which I could imagine families dipping in and out of without getting bored. Scaleforum on the other hand had 9 show layouts and a work in progress all in P4. The atmosphere and approach was also much more specialised with in depth conversations, discussion and study taking place across the hall ... a situation where a youngster or non enthusiast would tend to grow bored. I for one brought my son and daughter to Railex and we spent a couple of hours max at the show (thoroughly enjoyable). I didn't contemplate taking either to Scaleforum and I spent the best part of 6 hours there. To me they are different animals, and if there is a viable way to keep Scaleforum in its current format I for one would be very pleased.

[10800]

There are, I fear, still some antagonisms between the EMGS and S4Soc. Not much anymore for which we should be thankful but it can be there. 

 

 

(my bold)

 

Do you have any specific examples to back up that sweeping statement? Or is that just pure hypothesis? 

[Kelly]

Being a member of both societies I've never come across any instances of antogonism or elistism from either side thus far. Everyone has proven helpful and friendly I've found.

 

As for Scalefourum and children, there were a small number there, who did take note of our stand (we try to have a colourful mixture of stock on display, the NSE stock seems to attract kids the most it seems). But it isn't really aimed at children so you wouldn't expect many there anyway.

 

I hope it doesn't change too drastically, as I like the current format. Tweaks to the format are always going to be needed over the course of time, but that is perhaps something best left for whomever takes over from Terry rather than making big changes in his last couple of shows.

[Porcy Mane]

My original post was in response to the preceding comments about the declining attendance at Scaleforum and the fact that RailEx attracts more people. 

 

Adequately covered in Echo's reply above but your reply does enforce the view that you don't understand the Scaleforum concept at all.

 

To address the first part of your reply, " My original post was in response to the preceding comments about the declining attendance at Scaleforum"  then why is it, well over a fortnight before Scaleforum weekend you singularly made an almost identical post after a suggestion it would be easier/more practical to model your chosen subject in P4?

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126014-period-modelling-pre-1900s/page-2&do=findComment&comment=2847170

 

 My views represent those of 9 fine scale (but EM) modellers, 

 

Nine is quite a quite a large group of individual modellers to get together on a weekly basis but thanks for speaking on their behalf and expressing their views. Particularly as you said, "this year the possibility of going to Scaleforum was not even discussed." Were you elected to express other people's views without discussing them?

 

Getting angry about what I said is understandable but illogical. 

 

But it is you that that has used the confrontational rhetoric and made incorrect assumptions. Others have responded accordingly but with polite restraint.

 

 Half finished layouts - there is a comment at the beginning of this thread promoting the show and saying there will not be many unfinished layouts so it would seem it has already been recognised as a problem. 

 

Oh dearie me. You really should stop digging yourself into a hole. Where is that statement? It looks like your interpretation of one comment is totally the opposite to what actually was said and meant. The fact that you have used it to try and bolster your comments on unfinished layouts is rather telling.

 

Quote from the first post in this thread:

 

"The Layouts

A feature of several of the layouts on display this year is that the progress of their construction has been described on the Society’s web forum so Scaleforum will give an opportunity to see in the flesh what so far has only been seen on a computer screen. Some layouts will be substantially complete – finished even, whist others are at various stages of construction and allow the visitor to see the techniques used."

 

I don't know whether you were at the recent EM Autumn event at Partington where at least four of the layouts on display were works in progress. As you feel so strongly about the (non) participation of unfinished layouts at events, it is noticeable that you made no comment on that fact in the thread promoting EM-Autumn.

 

It would seem that the more posts you make.the more it becomes clear that your gripe is not about Scaleforum but about P4/S4 in general. Comments such as:

 

Twice I have overheard comments from P4 modellers about the fact that the winning layout was only EM.

 

...only shows that you have very little knowledge of current attitudes and hold a view firmly entrenched in the past.

 

Whilst you have every entitlement to express your views and opinions, your initial hostility in that expression coupled with obvious bias and subsequent misinterpretation of comments severely dents your credibility.

 

One positive from your initial confrontational post is that it has stimulated more debate than may have ordinarily been the case.

 

P

Edited September 29, 2017 by Porcy Mane