Self-driving' lorries to be tested on UK roads

[PhilJ W]

Just a thought, what if the lead truck goes over a level crossing just as the lights change?

[cctransuk]

I do wonder if people are missing the point. This is a test not a full scale introduction. The whole point of a test is to find out what the problems actually are, rather than to speculate. Under the circumstances I expect the test to be thorough, in which case it will reveal which issues are real problems and which are imaginary ones.

 

I expect that the test may also reveal other problems that no-one has thought of yet too...

 

.... and how many people will need to be killed before the powers that be decide that the TEST was a complete disaster?

 

You don't TEST new drugs on humans first - why TEST new (stupid) traffic ideas on humans?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Norm81]

Given the large amount of "unpredictable" human drivers on the road, navigating around them will be a considerable challenge I would think.

 

To get a benefit from "drafting" the truck in front you'd have to be so close that if the wireless automatic brakes didn't engage on the second/third truck it'd have probably rear-ended the truck infront before a human could react.

[Ron Ron Ron]

.... and how many people will need to be killed before the powers that be decide that the TEST was a complete disaster?

 

You don't TEST new drugs on humans first - why TEST new (stupid) traffic ideas on humans?

 

 

 

There has been a huge amount of development and testing already John.

They have reached a stage of development where it is thought safe enough, under the right controls and safety procedures, to test on public roads mixing in with live traffic.

These live tests on public roads have been going on for a couple of years elsewhere, so it isn't untried.

 

If I read it correctly, the UK tests are along the same lines as the "Platooning" tests already being developed and tested elsewhere.

I think it's pretty obvious that it will take a long period of development of both the technology and the safety regimes, if this is going to be workable, safe and worthwhile.

 

Fully autonomous trucks is the end goal, but that may be a few more years away.

 

 

 

.

[57xx]

Just a thought, what if the lead truck goes over a level crossing just as the lights change?

 

Are there many level crossings on the motorways down your way?

[Mark Saunders]

Have any consultation papers been issued for this trial?

 

As the big buzzword is Stakeholders and some of us might like to comment!

 

Mark Saunders

[Mark Saunders]

Have any consultation papers been issued for this trial?

 

As the big buzzword is Stakeholders and some of us might like to comment!

 

Mark Saunders

 

Found   https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/637361/truck-platooning-uk-feasibility-study.pdf

 

This interesting quote:-

 

For a trial it is not feasible to train all other drivers, and furthermore, a trial is likely to want to compare the behaviour of drivers aware of platoons with those who are not. In the longer term, there could be benefit in training drivers to identify the presence of heavy vehicle platoons and planning how to negotiate them safely, which could be included, for example, during the theory test

 

The word could but you try similar on the Railway and the same Government department make it mandatory!

 

Currently there is no retraining after passing your test!

 

Mark Saunders

[YesTor]

From a safety angle the whole concept seems like a recipe for disaster.  Viewing some of those videos it seems that all the tests are being conducted on the assumption of 'model behaviour' on the part of the driver of the front vehicle.  What happens for example, when said driver decides to take his eyes off of the road while making a call on his mobile phone, or watch a movie from the laptop perched on his dashboard?  And let's not be silly enough to say that it won't happen... 

[cctransuk]

 

Fully autonomous trucks is the end goal, but that may be a few more years away.

 

.

 

Why ??????????

 

How are all the redundant lorry drivers going to make a living, for a start?

 

Pay them benefits - and then pay thousands of NHS mental health professionals when said redundant drivers wonder if life is worth living?

 

Mankind is entirely capable of automating every tiny activity of human existence - but why would WE want to do so? (It's obvious why THEY would want to do so - it's cheaper in the long run).

 

Just because we can is not an acceptable answer.

 

Life needs a purpose - or humankind becomes redundant.

 

As usual, society will not recognise the obvious until the (terminal?) damage is done.

 

I'm glad that I won't be around to pick up the pieces - if my descendants are that lucky!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Nimbus]

For a trial it is not feasible to train all other drivers, and furthermore, a trial is likely to want to compare the behaviour of drivers aware of platoons with those who are not. In the longer term, there could be benefit in training drivers to identify the presence of heavy vehicle platoons and planning how to negotiate them safely

Huh? So they're not going to be obviously distinguishable from normal trucks without specific training? I'd have expected at least some head and tail marker, as with military convoys, and covered by the Highway Code.

Mind you, if observation of arcane details are required, RMwebbers should  have well-exercised skills in this regard.

 

The Nim.

[Rivercider]

Huh? So they're not going to be obviously distinguishable from normal trucks without specific training? I'd have expected at least some head and tail marker, as with military convoys, and covered by the Highway Code.

Mind you, if observation of arcane details are required, RMwebbers should  have well-exercised skills in this regard.

 

The Nim.

I think that is going to be difficult to achieve.

It is easy enough for the driver of the lead vehicle to activate a warning on the front cab once the platoon has formed but the rear could be a different matter.

Once a platoon is formed a warning message could be illuminated on the rear vehicle, but if and when the platoon breaks up on the motorway then the three(?)

lorries become separate vehicles, so should the rear warning no longer apply?

An ordinary driver may join a motorway in between three temporarily split vehicles of a platoon that is trying to reform, how would he know he is in the middle of a broken platoon?.

Then if the platoon gets reformed the rear warning will need to be relit, this could be automatically controlled by software.

It is all a bit like the tail lamp at the rear of a train!

 

Of course a driver for each vehicle will still be required for each vehicle in the future as the platoon presumably can not form until it is on an authorised motorway.

Real savings can be made once eventually driverless lorries are permitted to run on other normal roads from the depot/factory to the motorway,

it will be interesting software that is able to work out when a driverless platoon will be safe to form itself on a motorway with no human intervention.

 

cheers

[rockershovel]

Current proposals envisage drivers at the start, and end of journeys, in locations where either the platoon hadn't yet formed, traffic isn't conducive to operating semi-autonomous platoons, or the destinations are different. I don't have any difficulty envisaging a substantial reduction in the total number of drivers, or the emergence of a whole sub-category of drivers specialising in short-haul driving, from pick-up to formation, or end of formation to final destination.

 

I'm sure the haulage industry sees this as wholly desirable. I doubt if government have any coherent policy at all, and are largely influenced by their commercial sponsors.

[F-UnitMad]

When trucks have no drivers, who are all you car drivers going to hate & lambast at every opportunity afterwards..??

Until recently, I worked for a pretty large haulage Company involved in the food & drinks distribution sector. None of our trucks ever went to the same places together, at the same time. Platooning just wouldn't work, & that's another point being missed when 'railway' people think of trucks on the motorway. The wagons in a train have to be taken to a single destination. Of all the trucks in, say, any 2-mile rolling stretch of motorway, very, very few of them will be going to the same destination. That is the flexibility that in the UK, makes road haulage more viable than the railways for most of the freight that is moved, except for bulk commodities such as trainloads of coal, steel, oil etc.

[rockershovel]

When trucks have no drivers, who are all you car drivers going to hate & lambast at every opportunity afterwards..??

Until recently, I worked for a pretty large haulage Company involved in the food & drinks distribution sector. None of our trucks ever went to the same places together, at the same time. Platooning just wouldn't work, & that's another point being missed when 'railway' people think of trucks on the motorway. The wagons in a train have to be taken to a single destination. Of all the trucks in, say, any 2-mile rolling stretch of motorway, very, very few of them will be going to the same destination. That is the flexibility that in the UK, makes road haulage more viable than the railways for most of the freight that is moved, except for bulk commodities such as trainloads of coal, steel, oil etc.

... but that pattern is changing. Look at the growth of very large road/rail interfaces like DIRFT. The huge Amazon depot in Peterborough must import huge quantities of boxes from a limited number of import points.

 

I would also suspect that although destinations vary, there is considerable scope for lorry platoons between intermediate waypoints.

[t8hants]

A platoon of truck bombs would be an interesting thing to try and stop, likewise these autonomous cars they talk of, quietly delivering a quarter of ton of explosive to your door.

[28XX]

In the 1970's and 80's we were promised that the working week would get shorter, leave entitlement would increase and the retirement age would lower, because of the huge efficiencies that Information Technology would bring.

 

Oddly, that didn't quite work the way we expected.

[Arthur]

 

If adopted, the trucks in these conveys would not all be going to the same destination anymore than the goods in a conventional goods train are/were.

 

Three trucks collecting goods from, say the London area for delivery to Manchester, would be linked up merely for the motorway part of the journey. Grouped together north of London, going their own way after arrival on the outskirts of Manchester.

 

.

[28XX]

If adopted, the trucks in these conveys would not all be going to the same destination anymore than the goods in a conventional goods train are/were.

 

Three trucks collecting goods from, say the London area for delivery to Manchester, would be linked up merely for the motorway part of the journey. Grouped together north of London, going their own way after arrival on the outskirts of Manchester.

 

.

Surely the checking, coordinating, marshalling crewing activities required at the termini would be as complex as putting containers on and off railway wagons.

[BoD]

Of much more importance ........... how will these autonomous trucks pick up hitchhikers?

[BoD]

In the 1970's and 80's we were promised that the working week would get shorter, leave entitlement would increase and the retirement age would lower, because of the huge efficiencies that Information Technology would bring.

Oddly, that didn't quite work the way we expected.

It was never going to work like that using most existing political/economic systems. Their model just can't accommodate those ideas and the fundemental changes necessary for them to work.

 

It's a bit like these platoons of lorries. Many of us can't imagine it working and it probably won't on today's transport system but who's to say that in the future all vehicles won't be autonomous, interacting with each other in a perfectly safe way? Who can say that we won't just step into the teleporter?

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

 

(and nobody has yet twigged whats REALLY going on in the world with rampant job loss re computerisation etc !!!!)

[Arthur]

 

Surely the checking, coordinating, marshalling crewing activities required at the termini would be as complex as putting containers on and off railway wagons.

It would share some of the complexities for sure. Linking trucks wirelessly would be considerably quicker than swopping containers and also and requires no heavy machinery. Just needs a 'car' park. The costs would need to be added into the overall cost/benefit analysis.

 

Whether this is a feasible, practical and cost effective way of running road transport operations is a long way from being proven. Like the early railways, many predicted fears will not prove to be problems, unforeseen problems may, or may not, be overcome.

 

It's a trial.

.

[duncan]

.... and how many people will need to be killed before the powers that be decide that the TEST was a complete disaster?

 

You don't TEST new drugs on humans first - why TEST new (stupid) traffic ideas on humans?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

 

One of the first deaths would be the driver in the 2nd or 3rd part of the convoy if the wireless activation of the brakes failed or if there was interference in the signal, quickly followed by other drivers due to the debris flying across the road.

 

One LGV swerving to avoid something can be bad enough, but 3 !   As previously mentioned, will there be a computer override to stop this, ie a few deaths preferable to many.  Or will the lead driver NOT be able to override the computer to save his own / someone else's life.

 

Imagine the insurance companies wriggling with all kinds of (not their fault) wireless interference etc to avoid payouts  

[Mark Saunders]

One of the first deaths would be the driver in the 2nd or 3rd part of the convoy if the wireless activation of the brakes failed or if there was interference in the signal, quickly followed by other drivers due to the debris flying across the road.

 

One LGV swerving to avoid something can be bad enough, but 3 !   As previously mentioned, will there be a computer override to stop this, ie a few deaths preferable to many.  Or will the lead driver NOT be able to override the computer to save his own / someone else's life.

 

Imagine the insurance companies wriggling with all kinds of (not their fault) wireless interference etc to avoid payouts  

 

Just wait for the legal action and finger pointing/blame game!

 

Solicitors will be the main winners!

 

Mark Saunders

[dvdlcs]

Imagine driving down a slip road onto a motorway, and finding one of these 'convoys' occupying the left-hand lane.  Recipe for disaster.

 

Here in Australia, when you are merging around (or passing, for that matter) a truck you have to look and see if it is hauling 1, 2, or 3 trailers in the urban areas (could be 5 trailers in the country). But at least they aren't limited to 80% of the road speed and everybody travels at the same pace, more or less successfully. But that is most likely the subject of a different thread...

 

Having spent a few years automating ore trains in NW Australia (we're getting there), this seems like an exponential level of complexity in comparison. What with trains running on rails, in a predictable path, never normally sharing a section with another train, if they divide then they automatically brake etc. and that is hard enough! Automating single road vehicles is one thing, running a convoy of trucks is quite another...