SECR P Class 0-6-0T in OO Gauge from Hattons

[Graham_Muz]

Ahh yes the mythical Rapido 'owned' factory.... 

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I'd like to show some appreciation for Hatton's having waited until the product was quite close to release before announcing it. There have been a few examples of this recently, mainly commissioned numbers/liveries (notably Rails' 33001 being announced days before it's arrival), and Im sure a few others can be thought of but it generally bucks the trend for brand new models. It's quite refreshing!

Edited September 12, 2017 by Torn-on-the-platform

[Dunsignalling]

First the H class, now the P class, throw in some SECR rtr wagons and this year will be perfect. I wonder if it will sell out as quickly as the H class did, im definitely going to pre-order one  

I'd be very surprised if anyone will do SECR wagons r-t-r, given that most of them had odd wheelbases and lift-link brake gear.

 

What we might see is what we've always had before, RCH wagons in SECR livery.

 

Proper SECR wagons have to be made from kits, Cambrian offer several. 

 

John

[SteveCole]

Hi all,

 

Remember that the BRM October Digital Edition includes an extra video on the Hatton's announcement. You have the pleasure of seeing Andy York interview Hatton's Dave Mylett, showing how EP samples come together and you see both new models running on the Hatton's test track.

 

The new Digital Edition can be download at www.brmm.ag/BRMdigi

 

Enjoy,

 

Steve

[Anglian]

I'd be very surprised if anyone will do SECR wagons r-t-r, given that most of them had odd wheelbases and lift-link brake gear.

 

What we might see is what we've always had before, RCH wagons in SECR livery.

 

Proper SECR wagons have to be made from kits, Cambrian offer several. 

 

John

 

 

My plan is to make goods train from kits and had noticed that Cambrian do several SECR types – are they considered the most accurate models available? Are there any others I should be aware of?

[Edwardian]

A question for Hatton's Dave, if I may. 

 

I notice that 178 and 753 both feature parallel buffers on the art-work.  I assume they carry such buffers in preservation, but, and please correct me if I am wrong, would they not have originally carried the tapered or "bottle" buffers that a number of the other models announced will carry?

 

However, we can easily either leave these, or seek to replace them with after market components, as each of us chooses, so it really isn't a big issue, but I note that you have tooled for the "bottle" buffers, as they feature on a number of the other variants announced.

 

So, will it be feasible to include a set of "bottle" buffers with 178 and 753 to allow the purchaser to swop them where he or she wants to represent the "1909/10-1911" condition? 

 

Alternatively, could the "bottle" buffers please be made available as spares?

 

Apologies if this is too big an "ask"; it is appreciated that it will be impractical to cater for every variation/combination in the RTR format, and I am impressed at the variations in detail that have been tooled for.

 

To underscore the point that I am not suggesting this is a major issue, I will add that I have now pre-ordered both of these, though it would be great to have the option of the correct buffers when they arrive.

[BlueLightning]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what year the two black southern versions were painted in Sunshine livery? I shall probably get them both regardless, just interested I did try googling but couldn't find anything that specific. 

 

Matt,

 

Taken from Graham_Muz's Blog:

 

H4-P-05 No. 1555 in Southern Railway black, 1938-48

H4-P-06 No. 1558 in Southern Railway black with Sunshine lettering, 1941-48

 

Hope that helps,

 

Gary

[SRman]

I'd be very surprised if anyone will do SECR wagons r-t-r, given that most of them had odd wheelbases and lift-link brake gear.

 

What we might see is what we've always had before, RCH wagons in SECR livery.

 

Proper SECR wagons have to be made from kits, Cambrian offer several. 

 

John

 

Bachmann did a set of three SECR wagons for their collectors' club at one stage, although I cannot vouch for the degrees of accuracy (maybe they are what you were referring to in your post) - I did buy a set. I also built several Cambrian Kits wagons for the SECR, as well as LBSC and LSWR ones. To go with the original Bachmann SECR C class loco, I also built a couple of early brake vans; a Roxey ex-LCDR brake in etched brass (not a kit for the faint hearted. Edit: actually DougN did much of the build for me)), and an SECR 6-wheel brake converted from a Midland brake with two LNER chassis doctored into a 6-wheeler.

 

For later SECR wagons and brakes there is more choice from Cambrian (I built a couple of the 'Dance Hall' brakes, but finished them in the BR era), plus the luggage vans from Parkside, or, if you are really keen, some etched brass kits from Roxey Mouldings.

 

Once Bachmann release their birdcage coaches, we'll also have some 'proper' passenger stock to run with our collections of SECR locos.

 

The photo is of the Bachmann C with the two brake vans I referred to, but I'll have to find a photo of the SECR wagons - I seem to have mislaid photos I know I have taken, at the moment!

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by SRman

[Edwardian]

Bachmann did a set of three SECR wagons for their collectors' club at one stage, although I cannot vouch for the degrees of accuracy (maybe they are what you were referring to in your post) - I did buy a set. I also built several Cambrian Kits wagons for the SECR, as well as LBSC and LSWR ones. To go with the original Bachmann SECR C class loco, I also built a couple of early brake vans; a Roxey ex-LCDR brake in etched brass (not a kit for the faint hearted), and an SECR 6-wheel brake converted from a Midland brake with two LNER chassis doctored into a 6-wheeler.

 

For later SECR wagons and brakes there is more choice from Cambrian (I built a couple of the 'Dance Hall' brakes, but finished them in the BR era), plus the luggage vans from Parkside, or, if you are really keen, some etched brass kits from Roxey Mouldings.

 

Once Bachmann release their birdcage coaches, we'll also have some 'proper' passenger stock to run with our collections of SECR locos.

 

The photo is of the Bachmann C with the two brake vans I referred to, but I'll have to find a photo of the SECR wagons - I seem to have mislaid photos I know I have taken, at the moment!

 

 

Very nice train, and you are a lucky man to have that 'C'!

 

I assume that you have ordered an H.  Quite a nice collection when the Ps arrive.

 

We'll all have to build Kentish 'Ashburtons'!

[Edwardian]

My plan is to make goods train from kits and had noticed that Cambrian do several SECR types – are they considered the most accurate models available? Are there any others I should be aware of?

 

I find Cambrian wagon kits go together well.  Most plastic wagon kits can be refined in some way, and there may be scope for this if armed with a volume on SE&CR wagons.

 

Cambrian's SE wagons are relatively late designs, with some post-war, IIRC.  If modelling pre-pool, I suppose you would want a preponderance of SE&CR wagons, with some from neighbouring companies and foreigners from further afield that have a reason to be there.  Apparently, though, a Midland D299 open wagon is mandatory, as there was at least one in every pre-Grouping goods yard.  WW1 and after, I suppose all and any pre-Grouping Company's designs would do.

[SRman]

Very nice train, and you are a lucky man to have that 'C'!

 

I assume that you have ordered an H.  Quite a nice collection when the Ps arrive.

 

We'll all have to build Kentish 'Ashburtons'!

 

Thanks. I was lucky enough to jump in when the C in full SECR livery was first announced, and pre-ordered it. I also bought, on a whim, the second issue with simplified lining, but that didn't seem to sell out quite as quickly. I do, indeed, have one SECR green liveried P on order, as well as the Hornby H in the similar livery (who could resist, even if it means selling the wife and house to pay for them!!).

 

I find Cambrian wagon kits go together well.  Most plastic wagon kits can be refined in some way, and there may be scope for this if armed with a volume on SE&CR wagons.

 

Cambrian's SE wagons are relatively late designs, with some post-war, IIRC.  If modelling pre-pool, I suppose you would want a preponderance of SE&CR wagons, with some from neighbouring companies and foreigners from further afield that have a reason to be there.  Apparently, though, a Midland D299 open wagon is mandatory, as there was at least one in every pre-Grouping goods yard.  WW1 and after, I suppose all and any pre-Grouping Company's designs would do.

 

I assume that wagons would have worked through, regardless of the originating railway, hence the early GW wagons in my train above (Parkside kits). I agree the Cambrian kits generally go together very well. In the case of the LSWR wagons I did a couple of different treatments for the brake gear, as suggested in their instructions. The problem, as you have highlighted, is that many of the SECR wagon kits are too late fr the 1904 - 1910 period I was trying to represent here.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Matt,

 

Taken from Graham_Muz's Blog:

 

H4-P-05 No. 1555 in Southern Railway black, 1938-48

H4-P-06 No. 1558 in Southern Railway black with Sunshine lettering, 1941-48

 

Hope that helps

,

 

Gary

Ah thanks, I remember reading that now, I wasn't sure if the dates were loco specific or just a general era for the livery

[JSpencer]

Bachmann did a set of three SECR wagons for their collectors' club at one stage, although I cannot vouch for the degrees of accuracy (maybe they are what you were referring to in your post) - I did buy a set. I also built several Cambrian Kits wagons for the SECR, as well as LBSC and LSWR ones. To go with the original Bachmann SECR C class loco, I also built a couple of early brake vans; a Roxey ex-LCDR brake in etched brass (not a kit for the faint hearted), and an SECR 6-wheel brake converted from a Midland brake with two LNER chassis doctored into a 6-wheeler.

 

For later SECR wagons and brakes there is more choice from Cambrian (I built a couple of the 'Dance Hall' brakes, but finished them in the BR era), plus the luggage vans from Parkside, or, if you are really keen, some etched brass kits from Roxey Mouldings.

 

Once Bachmann release their birdcage coaches, we'll also have some 'proper' passenger stock to run with our collections of SECR locos.

 

The photo is of the Bachmann C with the two brake vans I referred to, but I'll have to find a photo of the SECR wagons - I seem to have mislaid photos I know I have taken, at the moment!

 

The Bachmann set are of later wagons in SECR colours and technically too long. However I have a set because it is better than running around with nothing. They also did some WWI War dept tanks which would aptly go behind the SECR locos (box of 3 club special).

 

Bachmann are not alone, there were a couple of very limited edition Dapol wagons (one to help restore a Bluebell SECR wagon), Hornby did one (maybe 2), I will need to check through my collection to see what else there is. (Edit, I have 2 Dapol and 1 Hornby SECR wagon in my collection).

 

I supplemented these with KESR wagons (quite a few done for the KESR), and other Kentish themed private owner items. Hornby - many years ago - even did a Chatham Dockyard wagon which is correct length for the epoque. (edit in my collection, there are 12 Kentish private owner and KESR wagons mostly by Dapol, which I can just about get away with, most are coal wagons or vans, 1 cattle van and 1 milk tank).

For true SECR RTR, I guess a Dance Hall brake must be on a manufacturers list by now.

 

I must buy those Cumbrian kits at some point!

 

Note: The P class could also be found at Dover with an LSWR B4 in later days.

However in the P class original role, we would need a pair of former LCDR bogie coaches fitted for push pull - not likely to be made in RTR of course.

 

At this time, I am planning a double expo layout, a loop with two parts on show opposite each other and each part acting as the fiddle yard to the other. The idea is to show two very different eras, SECR on one side and NSE on the other. Still not sure what to model though.....

Edited September 12, 2017 by JSpencer

[Edwardian]

 

However in the P class original role, we would need a pair of former LCDR bogie coaches fitted for push pull - not likely to be made in RTR of course.

 

Also, not available as kits, so far as I am aware, and, whereas the diagrams of the 4 ex-LCDR coaches (2 pairs) converted to trailers in 1912 are identified in David Gould's book on SE&CR bogie coaches, I am not so sure that the push-pull sets were formed of bogie coaches in 1909-1911.

 

David Gould in Bogie Carriages of the SE&CR suggests that the four 1912 conversions were the only bogie push-pull coaches that the Southern inherited from the SE&CR, whereas an extract Blue Lightening identified from Bradley's locomotive history talks of the conversion of 8 ex-LCDR bogie coaches, "sanctioned" in 1908.

 

Gould states, at p49, that "the only other SE&C pull-and-push sets were some 6-wheeled 3-coach ones, but these were all withdrawn at the end of 1929"

 

Is the prototypical train for the Ps in 1909-1911 in fact a push-pull fitted 6-wheel 3-set? 

 

Regardless, I imagine that the Wainwright lined models will find happy homes shunting, on short goods workings and hauling generic or LCDR 4-wheelers about the place.  Part of the joy of RTR releases is when they lead to modelling, be it wagon kits or some coach building.   

[57xx]

Liveries:

 

H4-P-09 “Pioneer II" in Bowaters Paper Mill lined green 1958-1968

 

H4-P-10 "Pride of Sussex" in Robertsbridge flour mill green 1961-1971 H4-P-11 27 “Primrose” in Bluebell Railway lined black 1961-1963

 

H4-P-12 323 in Bluebell Railway lined blue - as preserved

Hi Phil, is there a livery sample missing for H4-P-11 27 “Primrose” in Bluebell Railway lined black 1961-1963?

[Hattons Dave]

Hi Phil, is there a livery sample missing for H4-P-11 27 “Primrose” in Bluebell Railway lined black 1961-1963?

 

Hi Ric,

 

Colour layouts for all twelve planned releases can be seen on the main website - www.hattons.co.uk/pclass

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

Edited September 12, 2017 by Hatton's Dave

[JSpencer]

 

Is the prototypical train for the Ps in 1909-1911 in fact a push-pull fitted 6-wheel 3-set? 

 

 

Nope, there is a photo in Bradley's SECR locos of P sandwiched between 2 bogie coaches. According to Bradley, the Ps were replaced by R1s (0-4-4s and not the 0-6-0s) when the sets were expanded to 4 coaches.

I think SECR was surprised by the success of the trains, probably the only time in history when a railway company complained about having too many passengers!

 

The push pull system was not that succesful it would seem. The trains were put to one side in WWI and maybe restarted as normal rather than as push pull sets (here I speculate if you saw the SR did not get any push pull coaches other than 6 wheelers - the book you refer dates from 1963 when people could be easily interviewed from living memories and few were inclined to delve really deep into actual archives). 

[Edwardian]

Nope, there is a photo in Bradley's SECR locos of P sandwiched between 2 bogie coaches. According to Bradley, the Ps were replaced by R1s (0-4-4s and not the 0-6-0s) when the sets were expanded to 4 coaches.

I think SECR was surprised by the success of the trains, probably the only time in history when a railway company complained about having too many passengers!

 

The push pull system was not that succesful it would seem. The trains were put to one side in WWI and maybe restarted as normal rather than as push pull sets (here I speculate if you saw the SR did not get any push pull coaches other than 6 wheelers - the book you refer dates from 1963 when people could be easily interviewed from living memories and few were inclined to delve really deep into actual archives). 

 

Yes, but that would depend upon the date of the photograph.

 

1909-1910 a class of 8, all, initially used/intended for push-pull work, yet, according to Gould, the SE&CR only ever produced 4 bogie trailers (ex-LCDR 46' Thirds and 45' Compos), and these conversions were not undertaken until 1912, which coincides with the modification of the auto-train gear to those Ps that were still allocated to push-pull duties (according to RCTS). 

 

In short, if Gould is correct, there were only ever 2 pairs of bogie coaches push-pull fitted, and none at all before 1912.

 

He does, however, mention 6-wheel 3-Sets push-pull fitted.

 

Ergo ...

 

I can't claim to know the answer, for instance, I don't know how the SE could have expanded to 4-coach push-pull services if it did not convert more bogie coaches.

 

The coach portions of the withdrawn railmotors had been placed in storage and the Southern dragged them out and converted them to push-pull trailers, so from the mid '20s there was scope for longer trains.  Perhaps the 4-coach trains date from Southern days?

Edited September 12, 2017 by Edwardian

[coachmann]

1912 onward's was the period when rail companies realised the limitations of their steam railmotors and arrived at the conclusion a separate loco and put-pull fitted coaches was much more flexible. The penny dropped with the LNWR in 1911 only a year after the last steam railmotor was put into traffic and from then on they built trailers and driving trailers for auto working. I cannot speak for the Southern, but the LNER and LMS started a program of converting mechanical linkage to auto vacuum working circa 1934, although not all coaches had not been converted by 1948. The GWR stuck with mechanical linkage right to the end.

Edited September 12, 2017 by coachmann

[9402 Fredrick]

I've pre-ordered Bluebell and 178 as tgey are preserved and currently operational on the Bluebell Railway as my grandfatger and late grandmother know two people who have moved near the Bluebell so will definitely be excited to get these two.

[rue_d_etropal]

Mike King has drawings of the 6 wheel stock and the bogie coaches. Photos of the bogie stock are 1912, but the trio of 6 wheelers are photographed in the 1920s. Might now consider these designs for next project. 

[phil-b259]

1912 onward's was the period when rail companies realised the limitations of their steam railmotors and arrived at the conclusion a separate loco and put-pull fitted coaches was much more flexible. The penny dropped with the LNWR in 1911 only a year after the last steam railmotor was put into traffic and from then on they built trailers and driving trailers for auto working. I cannot speak for the Southern, but the LNER and LMS started a program of converting mechanical linkage to auto vacuum working circa 1934, although not all coaches had not been converted by 1948. The GWR stuck with mechanical linkage right to the end.

 

The Southern standardised on a compressed air system early on (inherited I believe from the LBSCR) - meaning locos so fitted could be identified by the Westinghouse air pump necessary.

 

However this is complicated by the fact that the ex LBSCR was an air braked railway anyway (so all its passenger locos had to have Westinghouse air pumps) and that many ex SECR locos had steam powered reversing gear (as opposed to manually operated levers / screw reversers in the cab) which can often be mistaken as said air pump (for either PP working or air braking).

[Caddy]

"The GWR stuck with mechanical linkage right to the end."

 

And boy, was it a right royal pain as they say! Hence the practice of locos taking their coaches to coaling, watering and shed with them! Just too much hassle to uncouple. On the Watlington branch they just treated the auto fitted trailer as an ordinary coach and ran round at each end.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Got around the preodering the black Southern pair today tbh I'm happy to wait till after Christmas, I have a feeling the Southern Birdcage Stock & H are going to come at the same time which is plenty of spending for me for one quarter

[Georgeconna]

Delighted these are coming out, The bank balance is not so delighted. Order and BR Black Late and the Blue schemed loco , I could not resist. The SE&CR livery is lovely too. Must resist.