SECR P Class 0-6-0T in OO Gauge from Hattons

[GreenGiraffe22]

According to http://www.semgonline.com/steam/pclass_01.html "Towards the end Southern Railway days two of the class, Nº178 and Nº555, were located at Brighton"

 

That's good enough for me, especially since Hattons are doing 555 in Southern black, I'll just pretend 178 was 158, as Hattons are doing that in sunshine, I suppose it would be an easy renumber if I really wanted to be pernickety.

[JSpencer]

Nice compact little chassis, would of like to of seen a Flywheel in there just to aid some running at slow speed, But very nice. Have ordered 2.

 

The problem with adding a flywheel is that it can mean smaller motor or unsightly seems on the lower front boiler.

 

Having built kits with limited motor space, I found it best to have a big motor rather than smaller motor + flywheel. To be really effective they need to be above a certain size anyway.

 

It will be good to see how the P copes with electrical pick up. The Dapol Terrier had a sprung axle ensuring that there is nearly always contact. Some rigid chassis in RTR production today suffer slightly from being too rigid. Body weight certainly helps a lot with electrical pick up too as well as haulage.

[No Decorum]

The problem with adding a flywheel is that it can mean smaller motor or unsightly seems on the lower front boiler.

 

Having built kits with limited motor space, I found it best to have a big motor rather than smaller motor + flywheel. To be really effective they need to be above a certain size anyway.

 

It will be good to see how the P copes with electrical pick up. The Dapol Terrier had a sprung axle ensuring that there is nearly always contact. Some rigid chassis in RTR production today suffer slightly from being too rigid. Body weight certainly helps a lot with electrical pick up too as well as haulage.

Interesting. A flywheel or two certainly helps slow running but I sometimes wonder if the inertia hinders a smooth start. Gentle application of power is needed to stop a model galloping away in a most unrealistic manner.

[coachmann]

Ultra slow starts and constant speed running are the norm with correctly set-up DCC.  

Edited September 22, 2017 by coachmann

[JSpencer]

Interesting. A flywheel or two certainly helps slow running but I sometimes wonder if the inertia hinders a smooth start. Gentle application of power is needed to stop a model galloping away in a most unrealistic manner.

 

Possibly, but the weight of the flywheel is small compared to the loco itself and also friction in the transmission system. A well designed and smooth drive train won't really need a flywheel except to get over dead spots, the latter can be overcome by a well designed pick up system.

Big locos can exploit big motors with big flywheels and excellent pick ups, small locos need to pick and choose.

 

As coachman rightly says, a correctly set up DCC chip will provide the best slow starts possible. This will only be under DCC mode though. Even here, a stay alive is recommended (especially sound chip) as any small cut in the power causes sound to reboot from the start again. A small loco like the P fitted with sound should have a stay alive.

 

While DCC set ups give the best slowest running, it is strongly recommended to have the loco running perfectly prior to conversion. DCC does not fix the problem, it will only hide it until it becomes really bad, sometimes causing the chip to burn out itself.

Edited September 22, 2017 by JSpencer

[coachmann]

The smallest locos usually demand the small Zimo 648 sound decoder. I was told the 648 cannot have a stay-alive. No doubt a knowledgeable DCC person could explain. I used to think stay-alives were essential, but I haven't had any trouble with my 57XX and 64XX Pannier Tanks (both fitted with the small 468 decoder).

[Bluebell Model Railway]

I generally fit flywheels in most of my kits, as it really does aid slow speed running, especially if ever wheels or track get dirty. Either way, for me I always have them in say the 0-4-0T arrangement, that thing never stops, never stalls runs beautifully, without it was pretty poor.
 
Of course DCC is good or reasonable for slowspeed, and of course you would also have available what I call the electronic flywheel  with stay alive caps,.
However not everyone is DCC...and I am not one of them.

Looking at a fair few of Hornby's releases they have certainly been putting them in recently and have been running pretty well despite how small they are, and for me certainly aids at Slow speed.

 Just my view of course, and everyone will have different views on it, but they look to run reasonably well.. at a fair speed, and the little shunter but as I always say that's a test track its not someone's layout.
 But anyway something I would of liked to of seen, of course they are a little bit stuck for room on both models guess we shall just have to see in December / January


 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Bluebell Model Railway

[coachmann]

I generally fit flywheels in most of my kits, as it really does aid slow speed running, especially if ever wheels or track get dirty. Either way, for me I always have them in say the 0-4-0T arrangement, that thing never stops, never stalls runs beautifully, without it was pretty poor.

 

Of course DCC is good or reasonable for slowspeed, and of course you would also have available what I call the electronic flywheel  with stay alive caps,.

However not everyone is DCC...and I am not one of them.

 

Looking at a fair few of Hornby's releases they have certainly been putting them in recently and have been running pretty well despite how small they are, and for me certainly aids at Slow speed.

 

 Just my view of course, and everyone will have different views on it, but they look to run reasonably well.. at a fair speed, and the little shunter but as I always say that's a test track its not someone's layout.

 But anyway something I would of liked to of seen, of course they are a little bit stuck for room on both models guess we shall just have to see in December / January

Understatement of the year.

[JSpencer]

The smallest locos usually demand the small Zimo 648 sound decoder. I was told the 648 cannot have a stay-alive. No doubt a knowledgeable DCC person could explain. I used to think stay-alives were essential, but I haven't had any trouble with my 57XX and 64XX Pannier Tanks (both fitted with the small 468 decoder).

Those 2 tanks have quite long wheelbases, the 57xx, if Bachmann's even has sprung axle.

[JSpencer]

Understatement of the year.

I generally fit flywheels in most of my kits, as it really does aid slow speed running, especially if ever wheels or track get dirty. Either way, for me I always have them in say the 0-4-0T arrangement, that thing never stops, never stalls runs beautifully, without it was pretty poor.

 

Of course DCC is good or reasonable for slowspeed, and of course you would also have available what I call the electronic flywheel  with stay alive caps,.

However not everyone is DCC...and I am not one of them.

Looking at a fair few of Hornby's releases they have certainly been putting them in recently and have been running pretty well despite how small they are, and for me certainly aids at Slow speed.

 Just my view of course, and everyone will have different views on it, but they look to run reasonably well.. at a fair speed, and the little shunter but as I always say that's a test track its not someone's layout.

 But anyway something I would of liked to of seen, of course they are a little bit stuck for room on both models guess we shall just have to see in December / January

 

I experimented, for example, between the Q1 and Q class, both south eastern Finecast kits, both similar in size and weight. The Q1 with bigger motor and no flywheel, the Q smaller motor plus flywheel. Pickups are the same, all 6 driving wheels, non sprung, but centre a tad (1/20th mm higher max) than the outer sets. Neither stall anywhere on the layout but the Q1 will haul more, matching the bigger Bachmann Nelson class.

I have not done an 0-4-0 though, which being a smaller loco may not require such power and flywheels might be essential on such a small design. When I do Baxter some day unless Hattons do that as a follow on to the Barclay.

[JSpencer]

Hattons have posted the order in which P class are selling the most.

 

Top 3 spots are occupied by Bluebell engines, SECR 178 in first place then 323 in Bluebell blue and 31027 in BR.

 

Next it is an SR green engine 325, then BR 31323 (bluebell loco), and again SR 1555.

 

In 7th SECR grey, a surprise really. Followed by Primrose in Bluebell early 1960s special livery, followed by 1558 in sunshine lettering (which I would thought would be before SECR grey and Primrose).

 

In tenth place is SECR 753, clearly the KESR preserved loco is less popular than the Bluebells preserved members. I would have expected SECR 178 and SECR 753 to be similar in sales and ranking.

 

The last two places are occupied by the 2 industrial P class (also both preserved). I would probably have brought these if the other colours of the same locos had not existed. Bowaters was not far from where I lived...

Edited September 22, 2017 by JSpencer

[PaulRhB]

I think the problem is there are so many attractive and useful liveries

I had to choose from six and that included the first and last in the ranking!

In the end I went with ones to match the themes already in my collection rather than start another diversion.

[GreenGiraffe22]

The pre grouping liveries are tempting but I'm being strict with myself and sticking to the 1940s.

[Bluebell Model Railway]

Understatement of the year.

 

Indeed.. but very much depends, I've seen some that run well and others not so much

 

I experimented, for example, between the Q1 and Q class, both south eastern Finecast kits, both similar in size and weight. The Q1 with bigger motor and no flywheel, the Q smaller motor plus flywheel. Pickups are the same, all 6 driving wheels, non sprung, but centre a tad (1/20th mm higher max) than the outer sets. Neither stall anywhere on the layout but the Q1 will haul more, matching the bigger Bachmann Nelson class.

I have not done an 0-4-0 though, which being a smaller loco may not require such power and flywheels might be essential on such a small design. When I do Baxter some day unless Hattons do that as a follow on to the Barclay.

Well you never know what the future holds, or who is doing what model, so you never know

 

Either way interesting future to the hobby.

 

[coachmann]

The pre grouping liveries are tempting but I'm being strict with myself and sticking to the 1940s.

It was an interesting period although only half of it is generally modeled for obvious reasons.  Everything was in a deplorable condition from what I remember of it. When I say everything, it included the municipal trams and buses right down to everyone's lifestyle (home, work and rationing). But it was an interesting and nostalgic period as well seeing as the war had frozen everything in time and had allowed us youngsters to see locos and buses in action that would otherwise have been scrapped years before. I wonder if the P class had survived because of the war?

Edited September 23, 2017 by coachmann

[Edwardian]

The pre grouping liveries are tempting

 

If you only knew the power of the Dark Side ....!

[GreenGiraffe22]

If you only knew the power of the Dark Side ....!

 

Aha I've come very close to giving in to an LBSC E4. I probably will eventually, it doesn't look like they're going to sell out any time soon. My first cab ride was in the Bluebell's E4 when I was in their 9F club about 12 years ago, been attached to the class ever since, plus I'm a Brighton boy and through family  research I've discovered quite a few distant cousins who lived in Lewes worked for the LBSCR.  Once I've exhausted all my 1940s Southern purchases that'll probably be next aha, although if model railway company trends keep going in this direction I'm not going to run out of things to buy any time soon  

 

Anyway bit of a topic drift there, I'm curious , everyone seems to agreen the P was pretty rubbish in terms of performance, how did they last so long? One would have thought the SR would have got rid of them, let alone BR aha.

[GreenGiraffe22]

It was an interesting period although only half of it is generally modeled for obvious reasons.  Everything was in a deplorable condition from what I remember of it. When I say everything, it included the municipal trams and buses right down to everyone's lifestyle (home, work and rationing). But it was an interesting and nostalgic period as well seeing as the war had frozen everything in time and had allowed us youngsters to see locos and buses in action that would otherwise have been scrapped years before. I wonder if the P class had survived because of the war?

 

 

It's always interesting to hear from people who were there, there's such little information and photos because of all the wartime restrictions, I'm making half of it up as I go along,  I can't imagine when I'm old I'm going to reminisce about carriage units in Connex livery...  despite being a 90s child it has always been steam steam steam! 

Edited September 23, 2017 by GreenGiraffe22

[No Decorum]

It's always interesting to hear from people who were there, there's such little information and photos because of all the wartime restrictions, I'm making half of it up as I go along,  I can't imagine when I'm old I'm going to reminisce about carriage units in Connex livery...  despite being a 90s child it has always been steam steam steam! 

A very healthy attitude, if I may say so. All the same, carriage units in Connex livery are one thing and Pendolinos and HSTs are quite another. So, for that matter, are Desiros. I certainly prefer steam but I am fascinated as well by modern wagons. Great big brutes of things. It looks as if I shall be sighing for 2,000 ton coal trains not so far in the future.

[GreenGiraffe22]

A very healthy attitude, if I may say so. All the same, carriage units in Connex livery are one thing and Pendolinos and HSTs are quite another. So, for that matter, are Desiros. I certainly prefer steam but I am fascinated as well by modern wagons. Great big brutes of things. It looks as if I shall be sighing for 2,000 ton coal trains not so far in the future.

 

See, modern stuff doesn't really interest me at all at all, although I did use to get excited as a child if a goods train came through Brighton because we rarely got any, in fact I don't think we get any at all now down here. Just hoards of EMUs I think? I don't even think there's an 08 shunter based down here anymore, it's a very dull place for trains now, I wish I could have seen it in its Brighton Works days!!!

[coachmann]

It's always interesting to hear from people who were there, there's such little information and photos because of all the wartime restrictions, I'm making half of it up as I go along,  I can't imagine when I'm old I'm going to reminisce about carriage units in Connex livery...  despite being a 90s child it has always been steam steam steam! 

You probably won't reminisce about carriage units in Connex livery if you don't think much of them now. In the same way that I don't reminisce about L&Y electric units in brownish maroon out of Man Victoria and the ex.LMS electric units out of Manchester London Road or ex.LNER EMU's out of Manchester Central in plain green.  Like you, I am tempted by eras that existed before I was born but have so far resisted.

[No Decorum]

Aha I've come very close to giving in to an LBSC E4. I probably will eventually, it doesn't look like they're going to sell out any time soon. My first cab ride was in the Bluebell's E4 when I was in their 9F club about 12 years ago, been attached to the class ever since, plus I'm a Brighton boy and through family  research I've discovered quite a few distant cousins who lived in Lewes worked for the LBSCR.  Once I've exhausted all my 1940s Southern purchases that'll probably be next aha, although if model railway company trends keep going in this direction I'm not going to run out of things to buy any time soon

 

Anyway bit of a topic drift there, I'm curious , everyone seems to agreen the P was pretty rubbish in terms of performance, how did they last so long? One would have thought the SR would have got rid of them, let alone BR aha.

The Terriers are much adored but I have loved the E4 since I saw a well-shot video of one pulling a train and pushing a Terrier. At the Bachmann Collectors’s Club day a couple of years ago, I jumped at the chance to buy the newly announced Club loco Birch Grove. I was asked what I was going to pull with it and was rather stumped. The answer, of course, if it had occurred to me at the time, was “Mk. Is”. The livery Birch Grove is presented in is, of course, only worn in preservation. In all honesty, if the livery were totally imaginary, I would still have bought it.

 

On the loco roster of the Bluebell Railway, it says, “The P-class tank locomotives were, in design terms, an updated copy of the LBSCR Terriers, but, with only eight of them built, made rather less of a name for themselves. However, with four of the eight surviving into preservation, they have blossomed, and are now much more favourably regarded as highly capable little locomotives. Their greater water capacity and larger cabs give them a slight advantage over the considerably older Terriers.” They can’t have been all that bad, then, and useful within their limited capacities.

[GNR Dave]

I think the difference in demand for the two SECR green liveries is simply down to the order they were listed. I wanted one to run with my C and soon to be released H and birdcages. I just clicked on the first one listed.

Then added a grey one.

And a Southern olive. 

[coachmann]

Harry Wainwright thought he was designing a copy of the Brighton 'Terrior', but some cost-cutting took place and the 'P' ended up with a much lower tractive effort than the Terrior. That they survived is most likely down to the Southern Railways main interests being in electrification. Anything that could turn a wheel was needed during WW2 and BR tended to keep locos in service if they performed a useful and particular function. Terriors, 02's, Beattie 2-4-0T, Adams 4-4-2T and Stirling R1 0-6-0T's fitted into this category and so presumably the P Class fitted into a niche duty despite their meager tractive effort.

Edited September 23, 2017 by coachmann

[No Decorum]

I think the difference in demand for the two SECR green liveries is simply down to the order they were listed. I wanted one to run with my C and soon to be released H and birdcages. I just clicked on the first one listed.

Then added a grey one.

And a Southern olive. 

Good choice. I shall add a Bluebell. Herself likes blue steamers. I’d get one even if she didn’t.