6023 dream over?

[Titan]

Though UP, SBB and RhB won't insist on fitting an obsolete braking system...

Presumably they'll use 4014 like they did the challenger and haul massive freight trains with it.

 

But the braking system fitted never became obsolete, so it is a fictional point with no relevance. Had those locos been vacuum only when preserved, you can bet they would be even more insistent on a change to air brakes than we are!

Edited November 7, 2017 by Titan

[Hilux5972]

Just saw this on the Didcot Railway Centre Facebook page

 

“Update on 6023 'King Edward II'

 

Having carried out a thorough review of the current status of 'King Edward II' and, with great regret, the Great Western Society has decided to postpone its plans to make the loco available for hauling trains on the main line. This was not an easy decision to make as lot of people have put in many hundreds, if not thousands of hours work on restoring the loco from its scrapyard condition as well as the considerable financial contribution made.

 

In making the decision the following had to be taken into consideration:

 

• A need to conclude the testing of the revised draughting.

• The limited time left on No 6023's boiler current certificate, around two years.

• The general turmoil within the steam charter train business at the present time.

• Route restrictions and limitations. Despite Network Rail being as helpful as possible.

• Cost of loaded test runs.

 

It has been decided that at the present time it would be unwise to proceed any further with our plans to operate 6023 on the main line and that it should be postponed, our preferred option being to operate the loco on heritage railways and thereby gain valuable income towards a speedy boiler overhaul once her ticket has expired.

 

6023 will be moved by road to the Severn Valley Railway in February for testing of the revised draughting. Assuming the tests are successful she will participate in their March gala and operate some timetable trains before, subject to agreement, moving to the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway for their May gala.

 

Our aim would be to maintain her in full main line condition, with all the necessary annual safety checks, etc, so that should the situation change she could operate, once the necessary certification have been obtained, on the main line.”

 

Sad news for the time being.

[Ken.W]

Someone mentioned earlier one of the charter groups looking to fit vac brakes to Mk3 stock. Is that indeed possible with disc braked vehicles? I'd suggest not as I don't believe the vac brake could be configured to work with the wheelslide protection equipment fitted.

 

Providing the stock is twin piped air brake, there's no reason why the diesel on the back can't provide air for the train brakes. Where des the air come from for a 91 with DVT on the other end? Probably not the DVT, but the 91. But then I wouldn't know, I've not been trained on 91s or DVTs.

 

There's a proposal for a new charter set being made up from Mk3 stock, but no suggestion of it being fitted with vacuum brakes. It's actually a proposal from the A1 Trust, which of course designed Tornado to be built air braked to avoid all the problems of continuing to operate vacuum braked trains.

 

But yes, having been trained on both, that's exactly how the Mk4 DVT / Cl.91 operate (as do any other driving trailers*, as far as I know). The DVT basically has a driver's brake control, some air reservoirs, and some pipework, basically all a steam loco would need, the compressor's on the 91. Or indeed, how HSTs managed to operate when the front engine shut down - pre re-engining when they were altered so the compressor can now run off the ETS, another possible solution, or combine the two for redundancy.

All UK air-braked passenger stock, as far as I know, uses the two pipe system, so technically the compressor(s) can be anywhere on the train.

 

* Including incidentally, the vacuum braked DMUs, which also had a two pipe system, the exhausters being direct drive off the engines, so not provided on driving trailer vehicles.

 

Mention's been made earlier in comparison of the problems assisting failed units with incompatable couplings to that of assisting a failed vacuum braked train. In the case of the units though, there will be a similar unit around somewhere that can assist, even though it does considerably prolong the delay. It'd be much more of a problem finding a vacuum fitted loco within range to provide assistance in the case of a failed vacuum braked train, unless of course we go back to steam specials always having to tow their own thunderbird on the back - and there was even more complaints about the noise off that than that of an air pump.

 

On the safety aspect, whilst vacuum fitted trains can of course be managed to operate safely, the major issue would be in an emergency situation. Mention has been made in relation to the DP2 incident and the difference that could have been made if the train was air-braked. A much more recent incident, involving the operator of the remaining vacuum fitted charters has also been mentioned. This incident, it will be recalled, narrowly missed fouling a trailing junction ahead of an HST approaching at line speed by around a minute. If the timing of the two trains had been slightly different, then had the charter been air-braked that could very well have made the difference in it stopping short of the fouling point instead of foul of the junction as it did, or in it reaching the fouling point behind the HST.

[TEDDYBEAR D9521]

6023 Failed on the SVR on the w/e assisted by a Class 08

[rodent279]

Vacuum brakes would require vacuum cylinders underneath the coach, which would be an achievement on a Mk3. Brake linkage is then needed, running under the coach to the bogies, to actually move the brake shoes/pads.

Air braked Mk2's & Mk3's have the brake cylinders mounted on the bogies, driving the shoes/pads directly. This is possible because the higher pressure used in the air brake system means a smaller cylinder can be used. I think it would be nigh on impossible to fit an effective vacuum cylinder within a BT10 or B4 bogie.

 

Edit: not sure if the air brake cylinders on disk brake Mk2's are mounted within the B4 bogie or under the coach, driving the same brake linkage as the vac brake. Can someone confirm please?

Edited May 7, 2018 by rodent279

[TEDDYBEAR D9521]

6023 Won't be doing a lot work on shed at Bridgenorth with a rumour that it has blown or leaking tube or tubes. 

[MarkC]

6023 Won't be doing a lot work on shed at Bridgenorth with a rumour that it has blown or leaking tube or tubes. 

One tube, apparently. Will be plugged or replaced, according to reports elsewhere

[Paul.Uni]

6023 has arrived at Dartmouth Steam Railway. Its first running dates are 29 June and then during the Kingsbeer festival on 13-15 July. It is staying to the end of September. Info from https://www.facebook.com/dartmouthrailriver/posts/1898771483500474

[Kris]

6023 has arrived at Dartmouth Steam Railway. Its first running dates are 29 June and then during the Kingsbeer festival on 13-15 July. It is staying to the end of September. Info from https://www.facebook.com/dartmouthrailriver/posts/1898771483500474

 

Pictures on the thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/69762-kingswear-churston-and-paignton-visitorsnews/page-3&do=findComment&comment=3200241

[kevinlms]

Who have paid a lot of money for 'the railway' to get them from A to B on time, something that would have happened if a Charter Train hadnt failed!

 

My point might be narrow bot is very relevant.

 

Most of the people who get all dewy eyed over Flying Scotsman probably never get on a train from one year to the next so I fail to see what benefit they bring, like it or not (me personally, I dont like it) the railways are a business and that business is shifting lots of people efficiently and effectively and making a profit from doing it!

It is sad that some people (professional railway staff?) take a black and white view, that mainline steam is just a nuisance, getting in the way of running 'proper' train services.

 

Fact is many corporates, see that supporting non core activities is NOT against their business culture. There are many instances of corporates supporting charity organisations on an ongoing basis. Of which supporting steam hauled mainline trains, is but one. One bank here, when using their ATM's up to recently, displayed a tally of how many volunteer hours its staff members provided - many millions.

 

Fact is supporting charitable organisations, creates goodwill, gets their name out to places, where potential customers might not know of their existence. Not least is the fact that, it is usually a good tax deduction.

 

 

I remember reading years ago, in an Australia Post report back in the 1980/90s when stamp collecting was very prevalent, that there was a total profit of the organisation of x amount. Elsewhere it stated the sales to philatelists, exceeded this profit. The point is that there are hidden benefits to an organisation, for people that ultimately support them, even if a figure cannot be put directly to it.

 

 

Elsewhere you stated about the difficulty of running vacuum braked trains, where almost exclusively the fleet is air braked. Yes I agree with you 100%, that any mainline steam ought to be capable of easily being hauled, at least out of the way, by the nearest convenient locomotive. The exact method, being up to the operator to provide, as long as it meets the standard set by Network Rail. If that requires an air pump or similar thumping away, on a steam loco that never had such a fitting, then that is the price.

[royaloak]

It is sad that some people (professional railway staff?) take a black and white view, that mainline steam is just a nuisance, getting in the way of running 'proper' train services.

I am rail staff (driver) and unfortunately it is black or white.

Fact is many corporates, see that supporting non core activities is NOT against their business culture. There are many instances of corporates supporting charity organisations on an ongoing basis. Of which supporting steam hauled mainline trains, is but one. One bank here, when using their ATM's up to recently, displayed a tally of how many volunteer hours its staff members provided - many millions.

Would they be happy to support those non core activities if they actively harmed the core activities in the eyes of their customers?

 

Fact is supporting charitable organisations, creates goodwill, gets their name out to places, where potential customers might not know of their existence. Not least is the fact that, it is usually a good tax deduction.

GWR (and most other TOCs I believe) do donate to charities, although quite how allowing other companies to run trains for profit on their part of the network is 'charitable' I dont know!

I dont think many people will decide to take the train instead of other means simply because a TOC has got in the headlines.

 

Some people still think it is British Rail anyway.

 

It is, no doubt, a good tax deduction.

 

I remember reading years ago, in an Australia Post report back in the 1980/90s when stamp collecting was very prevalent, that there was a total profit of the organisation of x amount. Elsewhere it stated the sales to philatelists, exceeded this profit. The point is that there are hidden benefits to an organisation, for people that ultimately support them, even if a figure cannot be put directly to it.

I am no expert on stamps (some would say I am no expert on railways either) but I fail to understand the correlation with running trains. 

 

Elsewhere you stated about the difficulty of running vacuum braked trains, where almost exclusively the fleet is air braked. Yes I agree with you 100%, that any mainline steam ought to be capable of easily being hauled, at least out of the way, by the nearest convenient locomotive. The exact method, being up to the operator to provide, as long as it meets the standard set by Network Rail. If that requires an air pump or similar thumping away, on a steam loco that never had such a fitting, then that is the price.

Air brakes should be a must, or if they insist on running with vacuum brakes then they should have a vacuum braked loco follow the train just in case, otherwise we end up with the ridiculous situation where the trains driver has to go and get his own rescue engine as happened at Tiverton Loop (last year?) when the driver had to get a taxi up to Bristol Barton Hill or the example at Euston a while ago where he had to go to Southall to get the rescue engine, all the while the failed train was blocking a platform at Euston.

Edited June 23, 2018 by royaloak

[Paul.Uni]

The loco roster for the Dartmouth Steam Railway Kingsbeer Fesitival on Friday 13 - Sunday 15 July is available at https://www.facebook.com/dartmouthrailriver/posts/1935503629827259

 

6023 is operating all three days.

[Clearwater]

I am rail staff (driver) and unfortunately it is black or white.

Would they be happy to support those non core activities if they actively harmed the core activities in the eyes of their customers?

 

GWR (and most other TOCs I believe) do donate to charities, although quite how allowing other companies to run trains for profit on their part of the network is 'charitable' I dont know!

I dont think many people will decide to take the train instead of other means simply because a TOC has got in the headlines.

 

Some people still think it is British Rail anyway.

 

It is, no doubt, a good tax deduction.

 

I am no expert on stamps (some would say I am no expert on railways either) but I fail to understand the correlation with running trains.

 

Air brakes should be a must, or if they insist on running with vacuum brakes then they should have a vacuum braked loco follow the train just in case, otherwise we end up with the ridiculous situation where the trains driver has to go and get his own rescue engine as happened at Tiverton Loop (last year?) when the driver had to get a taxi up to Bristol Barton Hill or the example at Euston a while ago where he had to go to Southall to get the rescue engine, all the while the failed train was blocking a platform at Euston.

You’ve made these points before on other threads on preserved steam. As commented before, your perspective as a driver is unlikely to be the same as the senior management whose responsibility it is to sanction the policies with respect to steam on the national network. To conflate with a TOC other corporate and social responsibilities programme is not really the point here.

 

Over the last few weeks, we have seen almost uniform negative coverage of the rail network as problem after problem has occurred. Like it or not, this country has a strong sentimental streak and a liking of history. Steam trains play strongly to that. Each run of Flying Scotsman, Tornado etc contribute to the creation of a positive sentiment - invaluable when you consider the general negativity. Of course, and no one disagrees, the operation of heritage services has to be sensibly structured and has to minimise safety risks.

 

However, your comments repeatedly miss a wider picture.

[woodenhead]

My view is most of these steam excursions now are high end dining experiences not enthusiast specials of old.

 

Therefore I take a view that if the train is not enthusiast led it should suffer the same consequences as a typical TOC if it fails and causes delays.

 

Just because it is a steam engine shouldn't automatically exempt it from the full weight of fines.

[ba14eagle]

My view is most of these steam excursions now are high end dining experiences not enthusiast specials of old.

 

Therefore I take a view that if the train is not enthusiast led it should suffer the same consequences as a typical TOC if it fails and causes delays.

 

Just because it is a steam engine shouldn't automatically exempt it from the full weight of fines.

Unfortunately, your last point would put railtour operators and loco owners out of business, very quickly - hence why delay penalties are capped.

 

I am a professional railwayman who has been involved in the planning and operation of charter trains on the network. The simple fact is, the network is getting too busy and there is very little capacity in certain areas, so we may have to face it, steam may well have to be something enjoyed only on preserved railways.

[royaloak]

Therefore I take a view that if the train is not enthusiast led it should suffer the same consequences as a typical TOC if it fails and causes delays.

Why should enthusiast led excursions be treated differently from wine and dine services?

If a train causes disruption to another TOCs train then they should pay whether its a track bashers special, a NED special or a steam hauled wine and dine special, a level playing field for all, and I include open access operators in that!

[rab]

Unfortunately, your last point would put railtour operators and loco owners out of business, very quickly - hence why delay penalties are capped.I am a professional railwayman who has been involved in the planning and operation of charter trains on the network. The simple fact is, the network is getting too busy and there is very little capacity in certain areas, so we may have to face it, steam may well have to be something enjoyed only on preserved railways.

In view of the way this thread is going,

perhaps it should be renamed

'Mainline Steam - Dream Over? "

[brianusa]

How long more will the enthusiast be the in the lifeline of railway preservation?  Already a lot of excursions appeal to the public either by dinner trains or trips to exotic locales, Christmas markets or just scenic train rides.  Not exactly what any self respecting anorak (or whatever is the current title these days) is particularly interested in nor are the general public interested in timing or sticking their head out of the window.  They regard it as a lineal theme park where they can do what their parents did once upon a time - ride a train. 

 

Brian.

[woodenhead]

Why should enthusiast led excursions be treated differently from wine and dine services?

If a train causes disruption to another TOCs train then they should pay whether its a track bashers special, a NED special or a steam hauled wine and dine special, a level playing field for all, and I include open access operators in that!

The differential to me is that enthusiast charters are one offs and priced accordingly, the dining specials are run by companies who do regular land tours attracting richer individuals and in my opinion are using that exemption as a means of making additional profit, sort of like an open access operation but to a wider number of routes.

 

That said, I can seee your point.

Edited July 8, 2018 by woodenhead

[caradoc]

How long more will the enthusiast be the in the lifeline of railway preservation?  Already a lot of excursions appeal to the public either by dinner trains or trips to exotic locales, Christmas markets or just scenic train rides.  Not exactly what any self respecting anorak (or whatever is the current title these days) is particularly interested in nor are the general public interested in timing or sticking their head out of the window.  They regard it as a lineal theme park where they can do what their parents did once upon a time - ride a train. 

 

Brian.

 

Maybe many of them do ride trains, just not in the same style as a steam-hauled dining excursion !

[Reorte]

Over the last few weeks, we have seen almost uniform negative coverage of the rail network as problem after problem has occurred. Like it or not, this country has a strong sentimental streak and a liking of history. Steam trains play strongly to that. Each run of Flying Scotsman, Tornado etc contribute to the creation of a positive sentiment - invaluable when you consider the general negativity. Of course, and no one disagrees, the operation of heritage services has to be sensibly structured and has to minimise safety risks.

I've said it before (and maybe in this thread for that matter) that you only have to look at the Tornado runs on the S&C just before complete reopening following the landslide. They were quite heavily featured on the news, and it was all positive coverage, and quite honestly that's the sort of PR the railway absolutely needs an awful lot more of. Yes, they were in a location and at a time where they could be done without likely having much impact on anything else but those are the opportunities that need to be seized for the sake of PR, and even though I'd prefer it otherwise are probably more helpful for the image than regular mainline steam running. At least looking out for such opportunities would keep some mainline steam for the forseable future (although the infrequency might make owners wonder if it's worth keeping locos main line certified), even if it's a fairly rare event.

[Covkid]

Interesting debate with many different thoughts and attitudes. In my view, so long as Jeremy Hosking and David Smith and to maybe a lesser extent John Cameron are in the railway business there will be steam on the mainline. But those operations are in a business environment rather than a kind of gentlemen's club (not intended to be derogatory). It would be really goo to see Vintage Trains at Tyseley get back on the bike and tun it;s own trains and maybe that will happen this year, but steam has to be run as a commercial enterprise.      

[royaloak]

look at the Tornado runs on the S&C just before complete reopening following the landslide. They were quite heavily featured on the news, and it was all positive coverage, and quite honestly that's the sort of PR the railway absolutely needs an awful lot more of. Yes, they were in a location and at a time where they could be done without likely having much impact on anything else but those are the opportunities that need to be seized for the sake of PR,

Which is probably where mainline steam will end up, the main routes are getting busier and faster and fitting a (comparatively) slow steam train in there simply wont work even on a Saturday or Sunday so its off to the secondary routes for them.

[Marshall5]

Which is probably where mainline steam will end up, the main routes are getting busier and faster and fitting a (comparatively) slow steam train in there simply wont work even on a Saturday or Sunday so its off to the secondary routes for them.

Which was where the 'Return to Steam' specials were back in the 70's and 80's under SLOA.  There were several specified secondary routes e.g. Welsh Marches, S&C, Hope Valley etc. over which steam was permitted.  The S&C even had regular timetabled steam on several days a week.  I, too, think this is the way forward - no more thrashing locos along the ECML or WCML trying to keep ahead of faster traffic and paying penalties for hold-ups. I never understood why these routes were ever passed for steam.  By restricting steam to specified less busy routes it should simplify pathing, route knowledge and water provision/servicing etc.  If some were regular, scheduled workings the operator may pick up more of the 'normals' as the West Highland does.  I'm sure many of the 'gricer' fraternity will disagree but I always found the secondary routes to be more photogenic and with no overhead wires! Just my 2p. worth.

Ray.

[Supaned]

I think part of the problem is this rose-tinted nostalgia where a loco MUST run over it's former stamping ground , wherever that may be. I'm sure some would be happy to see Mallard irreparably damaged on a repeat of the speed record run just to say they were on that train at that time.

 

The concept of running steam hauled services on secondary lines is indeed a good one , however these days a lot of those lines are busier now than they were in the 1980s etc , and at weekends they can be used by diverted services when there is engineering works on main lines, so who should be prioritised ? The general public paying to travel from A to B who don't care if the train is painted in the exact shade of green from June 22nd 1934 and just want a seat and a train to get them there on time , or the enthusiast who will complain that the loco never had those two rivets on the fireman's side of the cab on August 1925, doesn't like the sound of air pumps or a diesel iding on the rear , but is more than happy to ride in a Mark 1 coach behind a loco painted in pre-nationalisation livery.

 

To be honest there are far too many trains on some lines at the moment , without trying to fit anything else in , if a charter (be that steam , diesel or electric) is capable of running within the paths that are available without delaying other trains then fair enough , but it's simply wrong to run a 75mph charter in front of a timetabled 110mph passenger train "just because" , and this sort of thing happens more often than people would believe. And that's without the trespass issues that certain types of charter train seem to attract.

Edited July 14, 2018 by Supaned