Hornby discounts

[No Decorum]

So would that be a 9ft wheelbase, 9ft 3in, 9ft 6in, 10ft or some other measure?

 

I could use all of them, and more.

One would do to start with.

[melmerby]

I quite like Hornby's PO wagons, even the older moulds. The couplings are easily removed and replaced with something more appropriate, which is what I always do, and the standard of decoration is always top notch, including the sole bar, which most manufacturers ignore (except for Oxford maybe?)

Like this?

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/37-072.jpg&cat_no=37-072&info=0&width=800&height=446

 

Bachmann have been doing it for years.

 

Keith

[leavesontheline]

Like this?

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/37-072.jpg&cat_no=37-072&info=0&width=800&height=446

 

Bachmann have been doing it for years.

 

Keith

 

Bachmann decorate the solebar on some of their private owner wagons but not all. Of the number I own I'd say it is the exception rather than the rule. I just feel that Hornby have the edge in terms of decoration even if the running gear and couplings are showing their age now. For me though, at the moment, Oxford Rail's efforts are coming out on top as they are beautifully decorated, more modern toolings AND represent great value compared to Bachmann and Hornby, being similar to Dapol pricing. 

[dibber25]

The usual reason for not decorating sole bars is the type of plastic used for the chassis. The resilient, slightly flexible type which is sometimes used where axle boxes need to be flexed outwards to insert wheels, does not take tempo printing - the paint/ink simply flakes off. (CJL)

[hermes]

With the cost of coaches topping £50 hows this for an idea.

 

Put them together yourself.

 

Instead of getting the coach ready to run in a nice flash box you get in a plastic bag and you just clip it together at home instead of a lady in China doing it. Packageing costs reduced, shipping costs reduced as you can fit more in a smaller space etc.

 

Simple really.

[Legend]

With the cost of coaches topping £50 hows this for an idea.

 

Put them together yourself.

 

Instead of getting the coach ready to run in a nice flash box you get in a plastic bag and you just clip it together at home instead of a lady in China doing it. Packageing costs reduced, shipping costs reduced as you can fit more in a smaller space etc.

 

Simple really.

I think there is something in that but everytime its mentioned its stated it wouldn't save much. So which is it , are labour costs of assembly really that high if you don't save much by not doing it? I suppose the parts would need to be kitted out for packaging and despatch, but surely you need to do this anyway for assembly.

 

Agree we need to do something, though. Costs cant just spiral ever higher , although there seems to be a fair range of costs of new coaches from £35-£65

[Dunsignalling]

I think there is something in that but everytime its mentioned its stated it wouldn't save much. So which is it , are labour costs of assembly really that high if you don't save much by not doing it? I suppose the parts would need to be kitted out for packaging and despatch, but surely you need to do this anyway for assembly.

 

Agree we need to do something, though. Costs cant just spiral ever higher , although there seems to be a fair range of costs of new coaches from £35-£65

In the factory, each of the bits comes out of a dedicated bin or tray and is picked up by the assembler as required.

 

Separating everything out into the number required for each kit, checking there's nothing missing and packaging it all, along with a need to include a set of idiot-proof instructions is what would probably make the benefits of such a strategy, at best, marginal.

 

There's also a danger of reputational damage caused by dodgy home-built examples coming on to the used market, with Hornby unfairly getting the blame.   

 

John

 

EDIT: and, of course, all that is in addition to still running the production line for complete models.

Edited October 25, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Bernard Lamb]

With the cost of coaches topping £50 hows this for an idea.

 

Put them together yourself.

 

Instead of getting the coach ready to run in a nice flash box you get in a plastic bag and you just clip it together at home instead of a lady in China doing it. Packageing costs reduced, shipping costs reduced as you can fit more in a smaller space etc.

 

Simple really.

Others have, or soon will, fill you in on the history oh CKD.

However in Germany Piko produce a BR95 that has more bits to add than many a kit. Including a large number of lengths of external pipe work.

It can be done but it is a bit of a cultural thing. A bit like Brexit really.

Bernard.

[adb968008]

Hmm..

 

So I took the challenge here..

I’ve just dismantled my latest R4715 Hornby CK to component parts. (I left the push fit windows, buffers and gangways in)

It took me 80 seconds to completely assemble a Mk1 coach and put it in the box.

 

It’ll be on ebay later (as I bought it to strip out the lighting unit and bogies for another coach).

 

It’s worth pointing out new Mk1’s are much easier to assemble than Margate ones, which were a 3 piece body (2 separate sides and a roof, which fitted into grooves under the roof and in the frame, which then was clip fitted into the vestibule ends and a bit delicate to handle), then after this is done there are two screws to put in... the Chinese ones as you saw then, require no tools.

 

That makes my assembly rate at 40 coaches per hour.

Edited October 25, 2017 by adb968008

[Steamport Southport]

The problem is many of the people buying these can't even fit the extra parts in the bag. Whether through lack of skill, inability or even being bothered.

 

 

I've only just received one of the few RTR coaches that I've bought for years, which is a Bachmann Nightcap Bar. In the pack are a few bits to add such as air actuators and reservoirs.

 

I'll be fitting them at one point, after looking at a few photos and drawings to make sure they are right. But how many others have fitted them? Very few I would guess.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[miles73128]

Design Clever rules! Good work!

Hmm..

So I took the challenge here..
I’ve just dismantled my latest R4715 Hornby CK to component parts. (I left the push fit windows, buffers and gangways in)
It took me 80 seconds to completely assemble a Mk1 coach and put it in the box.

It’ll be on ebay later (as I bought it to strip out the lighting unit and bogies for another coach).

It’s worth pointing out new Mk1’s are much easier to assemble than Margate ones, which were a 3 piece body (2 separate sides and a roof, which fitted into grooves under the roof and in the frame, which then was clip fitted into the vestibule ends and a bit delicate to handle), then after this is done there are two screws to put in... the Chinese ones as you saw then, require no tools.

That makes my assembly rate at 40 coaches per hour.

[Coryton]

I've only just received one of the few RTR coaches that I've bought for years, which is a Bachmann Nightcap Bar. In the pack are a few bits to add such as air actuators and reservoirs.

 

I'll be fitting them at one point, after looking at a few photos and drawings to make sure they are right. But how many others have fitted them? Very few I would guess.

 

Which could mean that lots of people aren't really bothered about having that level of detail and would happily pay less and not have them.

[Steamport Southport]

Which could mean that lots of people aren't really bothered about having that level of detail and would happily pay less and not have them.

 

But then they would probably lose the sales to people that do want them. 

 

Can't win, can they?   

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

But then they would probably lose the sales to people that do want them. 

 

Can't win, can they?   

 

 

 

Jason

Or sell them separately ?

[Caledonian]

Which could mean that lots of people aren't really bothered about having that level of detail and would happily pay less and not have them.

 

Depends... I'm always in favour of detail and love the intricacy of say wire handrails rather than moulded ones, but it depends on how well its done. If I can add it I will, but if I reckon I'll botch it I won't; a clean model lacking in certain details is to my mind preferable to one with messed up detail.  

[Steamport Southport]

Or sell them separately ?

 

Sell what separately? The extra bits provided in the models?

 

They probably cost pennies to provide so I can't see the problem.

 

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

Sell what separately? The extra bits provided in the models?

 

They probably cost pennies to provide so I can't see the problem.

 

 

 

Jason

Nail on the head... if they are the left over bits on the spruce, they cost nothing.

Therefore it doesn’t matter if the user never adds them, but it’s a value add to those who do.

So if it costs nowt to add them, why take them away ?

[Dunsignalling]

Dapol do a similar thing with their OO coach range. Plastic injection, painted and fully assembled in Wales for around £14, or assemble it yourself for £11, a 21% reduction.  

But the Airfix tooling for those is forty years old so effectively costs them nothing as it will have paid for itself several times over. That couldn't apply to new models.

 

Also, the separately applied roof vents constitute about three quarters of the total parts count (even counting each wheelset individually) - the bogies are one-piece, the glazing is one piece on each (very thick) side which allows sufficient room for the modeller to add window boxes without making the vehicle out-of-gauge.   

 

They were good models by the standards of the 1970s when they first appeared, but that was then and this is now. There is absolutely no separately applied detail apart from the aforementioned roof vents, which are sufficiently over-scale to make them obvious candidates for immediate replacement with some nice whitemetal castings.

 

I actually like the old dears; I've known them since they were young and they can still form the basis of pretty good models, but the required input of both time and money is substantial. If you add on the cost of all the bits needed to get them even 75% of the way to the standard of current LMS coaches, you'll be lucky to save anything over a Hornby coach and maybe a fiver over a Bachmann one (at common discount prices).

 

I know. I've done three already with another currently on the go and several more waiting to be cut-and-shut into different diagrams. The low price of the kits makes chopping up two to make one coach perfectly acceptable. 

 

John

Edited October 25, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Legend]

It depends though, there will be many ,myself included, who are prepared to run them unmodified. I think these are attractive coaches and even though they date from 1977 they are still very good. The point is that there is a market for models at this level, which are perfectly acceptable to most. We don’t all need £60+ plus coaches bustling with detail.

[Caledonian]

I agree. I have a couple of Bachmann Jinties - and a trio of Railroad ones, sprayed black and weathered. Detail-wise there's no comparison but running on the layout the Railroad ones look perfectly acceptable.

[Coryton]

But the Airfix tooling for those is forty years old so effectively costs them nothing as it will have paid for itself several times over. That couldn't apply to new models.

 

Also, the separately applied roof vents constitute about three quarters of the total parts count (even counting each wheelset individually) - the bogies are one-piece, the glazing is one piece on each (very thick) side which allows sufficient room for the modeller to add window boxes without making the vehicle out-of-gauge.   

 

 

Maybe I'm the one missing the point, but I thought the point of the original post was that there is already a company selling coaches at a discount if you assemble them yourselves, not that the coaches themselves are cheap.

 

The more assembly required, the bigger that differential ought to be.

 

Though the kits don't just differ because you have to assemble them - you have to paint the roof and ends yourself too (at least they tell you to - I don't know how the roof comes if you buy them complete - maybe just left as grey plastic?)

[Steamport Southport]

It depends though, there will be many ,myself included, who are prepared to run them unmodified. I think these are attractive coaches and even though they date from 1977 they are still very good. The point is that there is a market for models at this level, which are perfectly acceptable to most. We don’t all need £60+ plus coaches bustling with detail.

 

But isn't there thousands of "lesser" detailed models already available on the second hand market?

 

 

 

Jason

[Coryton]

But isn't there thousands of "lesser" detailed models already available on the second hand market?

 

 

 

Jason

 

Yes, but either you have to go out looking for them - with no guarantee you'll find what you want - or buy on-line where you can't be sure what state they'll be in until they turn up.

[Dunsignalling]

It depends though, there will be many ,myself included, who are prepared to run them unmodified. I think these are attractive coaches and even though they date from 1977 they are still very good. The point is that there is a market for models at this level, which are perfectly acceptable to most. We don’t all need £60+ plus coaches bustling with detail.

But, compared to the best modern stuff, if left unmolested, they are really just bits of coach-shaped scenery that stop your locos looking lonely.

 

Mind you, I have always suspected that to be the level of interest that rather a lot of people have in anything that doesn't have a motor in it.   

 

 

John

Edited October 26, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Joseph_Pestell]

Which could mean that lots of people aren't really bothered about having that level of detail and would happily pay less and not have them.

That sounds like "Design Clever". And we know what happened to that :-)