Best options for DMU centre car

[H2O]

I have several 1st generation DMUs and was wondering what are the options for getting hold of centre cars.  New items do not seem to be sold separately(?) so if you get a 2 car unit and want to expand I'm not sure what the next step is.  I'm thinking 108 and 101 for now but would be interested in others in time.  It looks like second hand or kit build (perhaps coach overlays) is the only way?  If so what would be the items to look out for - considering there were many swaps on the real railway between classes over the years and I am ok accepting either an unusual combination or something that looks about right (i.e. modellers licence!).  I'd prefer to keep the models being of a similar standard (i.e not using a 60's Triang centre car with a 2000's model).

[crazynitwit]

I have several 1st generation DMUs and was wondering what are the options for getting hold of centre cars.  New items do not seem to be sold separately(?) so if you get a 2 car unit and want to expand I'm not sure what the next step is.  I'm thinking 108 and 101 for now but would be interested in others in time.  It looks like second hand or kit build (perhaps coach overlays) is the only way?  If so what would be the items to look out for - considering there were many swaps on the real railway between classes over the years and I am ok accepting either an unusual combination or something that looks about right (i.e. modellers licence!).  I'd prefer to keep the models being of a similar standard (i.e not using a 60's Triang centre car with a 2000's model).

i'm a bit unsure as to whether your looking for just the centre car or a whole dmu but just in case heres a class 108 i found on ebay with a centre car

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/OO-Gauge-Bachmann-32-911A-Class-108-3-Car-DMU-BR-Green/391907765517?hash=item5b3f85ed0d:g:6J8AAOSw5-tZ5Ipa

if not you could always use a br green mk1 coach im sure no-one would complain.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hornby have done class 110 and 101 as three car units, Lima done the 117 and 101 as three car units, and Bachmann done the 108 as a three car unit. All others that have been made as 2 car units were meant to be two car units.

 

It is four car units with a center Trailer Brake Second that cause me problems.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I have several 1st generation DMUs and was wondering what are the options for getting hold of centre cars.  New items do not seem to be sold separately(?) so if you get a 2 car unit and want to expand I'm not sure what the next step is. 

 In reality the 'expansion' with the 2 car units, is to add further 2 car units, as Clive implies above.

 

I'd suggest that if looking for a 3 car unit 'all matched' the simpest option is to sell a 2 car, buy a 3 car. You might after a lot of searching luck in and find someone prepared to sell a matching centre car for one of your 2 car sets, but that will probably be a long haul...

[The Johnster]

A green mk1 is not really going to cut the mustard I'm afraid; different length, window sizes, body profile in some cases, underframe details, and bogies will make it stand out like a sore opposable digit. 

 

You might get away with a modified mk1 suburban for high density units, 116/7 and similar.  You could cut the pillars between some of the windows to make the correct profile of wide and narrow windows between the doors and fabricate interiors out of card sheet or plasticard, but the underframe and bogies would still look wrong.

Edited October 28, 2017 by The Johnster

[tamperman36]

The easiest center coach to find on Ebay is usually the Hornby class 110 with the ex Lima now Hornby class 101 occasionally  to be found. The Bachmann center coaches are very hard to find as a separate item.

[F-UnitMad]

A green mk1 is not really going to cut the mustard I'm afraid; different length, window sizes, body profile in some cases, underframe details, and bogies will make it stand out like a sore opposable digit. 

 

I might be wrong, but I think the green Mk1 suggestion was actually meant in jest.

[royaloak]

A lot of the recently released 1st gen DMUs are power/trailer sets so wouldnt be suitable for a centre car to be added, you would need a power twin set for that.

[Steamport Southport]

Which all goes to show how unfortunate it is that the Craftsman detailing/conversion kits are no longer available.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

I might be wrong, but I think the green Mk1 suggestion was actually meant in jest.

 

I would certainly hope so...

[SRman]

The easiest center coach to find on Ebay is usually the Hornby class 110 with the ex Lima now Hornby class 101 occasionally  to be found. The Bachmann center coaches are very hard to find as a separate item.

 

I agree with this: the first issues of the class 110 actually included a separate centre car, with the most common livery I have seen being the refurbished white with blue stripe. This model is not too far off modern standards, as long as you change the wheels, and possibly the couplings. There is no lighting inside, but even that isn't difficult to add.

[DCB]

You could run 156s as 3 car units like scotrail did in the 1980s , by splitting two car units, a power triple!   I always run a steam loco and set of suburbans as a replacement for a failed DMU to avoid these issues.   The green MK 1 is not going to work, it would look plain daft, ,like the Hawkesworth coaches added to GWR railcar sets and the SR's infamous Tadpole units.  

[stewartingram]

I've done a 3-car 101, using a Bachmann 2-car and adding a Lima centre car. However, to do it properly I purchased a second 2-car unit. I then did a "pick & mix" with the bodies/underframes/bogies/interiors. I ended up with only one motor used, correct seating, and only one brake compartment. The Lima car was also on a Bachmann underframe.

 

Stewart

[The Johnster]

I have a LIma 117 cut and shut into a passable 116 with only one DBMS and a correct seating pattern, built many years ago but still running reliably enough if it is scrupulously cleaned.  It is repainted in early plain green livery with whiskers and white cab roofs, and looks very different from the Lima, above the solebar anyway.

 

It took, IIRC, 5 vehicles to get the correct configuration, but in those days they were cheap as chips and readily available.

[muddys-blues]

Hello it can depend on what era & region you are modelling ? but it wasn't uncommon to find a different class of centre car in a set, ie a Class 108 power car set with a 101 centre, also the same with class 120's etc, if you are modelling from the mid 1970's onwards, there was hybrid sets all over the country.

 

Hope this helps

Craig.

[knitpick]

Actually the suggestion of using a Mk1 may not be so far off the wall.  Hugh Longworth's book British Railways First Generation DMUs notes that 3 Hawksworth CKs were converted for use as Blue Square DMU centre cars.  Apparently they were initially used to strengthen class 119 Cross Country units.  He notes that they were also used in Class 117 suburban units.  

 

Further to this, redundant 4CEP TSOs were adapted and used to strengthen some 2H units making them 3 car corridor units.  The 4CEP TSO, body wise, is a Mk1 SO albeit they had hopper style windows by then.  Due to width variation, these (now 3H) units acquired the nickname slugs. 

 

So applying a bit of time warp, modellers licence, and changing build details, you could argue a case for placing a Mk1 in a DMU as a "might have been" scenario.

[The Johnster]

Actually the suggestion of using a Mk1 may not be so far off the wall.  Hugh Longworth's book British Railways First Generation DMUs notes that 3 Hawksworth CKs were converted for use as Blue Square DMU centre cars.  Apparently they were initially used to strengthen class 119 Cross Country units.  He notes that they were also used in Class 117 suburban units.  

 

Further to this, redundant 4CEP TSOs were adapted and used to strengthen some 2H units making them 3 car corridor units.  The 4CEP TSO, body wise, is a Mk1 SO albeit they had hopper style windows by then.  Due to width variation, these (now 3H) units acquired the nickname slugs. 

 

So applying a bit of time warp, modellers licence, and changing build details, you could argue a case for placing a Mk1 in a DMU as a "might have been" scenario.

 

 

Well, I couldn't.  Some multiple units used what were fundamentally mk1 coaches, notably the Swindon 4-car Inter-City (on B4 bogies) and Clacton Electrics (on Commonwealths), and the Trans-Pennine 5-car sets used coaches of the same profile, but the windows were noticeably smaller, the doors arranged differently on the driving vehicles, and on none of these trains was the underframe anything like that of a mk1.  The GW coaches were Colletts, not Hawksworths, and used with Gloucester 3-car Cross Country sets as strengtheners; I was not aware of their use with 117s but that would seem unlikely as they were gangwayed coaches and 117s were not fitted with gangways until after their withdrawal.  I might apply a time warp, or modeller's licence, or changing build details, or Rule 1, but never more than one at a time.

 

But I do not wish to impose my interpretation of what is acceptable upon anyone else, merely to point out what I think are very obvious flaws in the argument.

[plarailfan]

DMU centre cars sometimes turn up on ebay mixed in a job lot of Tri-ang carriages and Hornby Pullman cars. Some sellers mix up a variety of carriages and wagons and so, if you have time to trawl through the listings, you might find the models you require, but then, you might be faced with having to buy items you don't need and then re-selling them at a later time.

Try a search for "Hornby Dublo wagons" as, some sellers appear to think they are selling Dublo, rather than OO models and as a result, all sorts of unexpected items can turn up !

[Steven B]

The closest you'll get to a prototype unit with standard Mk1 coaches is the Class 116 parcels unit. The centre car from a standard 2-car class 116 were replaced with a pair of GUV vans.

 

If you want to convert a 2 car unit to a three car then you might be better off getting a class 121 or 122 to strengthen the train for your peak services.

 

 

Steven B.

[Clive Mortimore]

Well, I couldn't.  Some multiple units used what were fundamentally mk1 coaches, notably the Swindon 4-car Inter-City (on B4 bogies) and Clacton Electrics (on Commonwealths), and the Trans-Pennine 5-car sets used coaches of the same profile, but the windows were noticeably smaller, the doors arranged differently on the driving vehicles, and on none of these trains was the underframe anything like that of a mk1.  The GW coaches were Colletts, not Hawksworths, and used with Gloucester 3-car Cross Country sets as strengtheners; I was not aware of their use with 117s but that would seem unlikely as they were gangwayed coaches and 117s were not fitted with gangways until after their withdrawal.  I might apply a time warp, or modeller's licence, or changing build details, or Rule 1, but never more than one at a time.

 

But I do not wish to impose my interpretation of what is acceptable upon anyone else, merely to point out what I think are very obvious flaws in the argument.

Hi Johnster.

 

The coaches used augment the Gloucester Cross Country units to 4 car were Hawksworth CKs.  The first of Reading's Class 117 Pressed steel units to have gangways were rebuilt so they could be used with the Hawksworth coaches. All 117s, 118s, and I think WR based 116s were gangway fitted by the mid 70s. Collet coaches were used to increase the seating in GWR twin units.

 

All the Swindon built DMUs had a body profile that was similar to that of a Mk2 coach not a Mk 1. The prototype Mk2 coach was built on the same jigs as the DMUs. That is why the windows on a Swindon Inter-city unit appear to be different to a Mk1. The coaches are different. I fell foul of the Swindon units being Mk1s.

 

The Clacton and Walton units as you say were built to MK1 design, by York and Doncaster.

[dibber25]

Well, I couldn't.  Some multiple units used what were fundamentally mk1 coaches, notably the Swindon 4-car Inter-City (on B4 bogies) and Clacton Electrics (on Commonwealths), and the Trans-Pennine 5-car sets used coaches of the same profile, but the windows were noticeably smaller, the doors arranged differently on the driving vehicles, and on none of these trains was the underframe anything like that of a mk1.  The GW coaches were Colletts, not Hawksworths, and used with Gloucester 3-car Cross Country sets as strengtheners; I was not aware of their use with 117s but that would seem unlikely as they were gangwayed coaches and 117s were not fitted with gangways until after their withdrawal.  I might apply a time warp, or modeller's licence, or changing build details, or Rule 1, but never more than one at a time.

 

But I do not wish to impose my interpretation of what is acceptable upon anyone else, merely to point out what I think are very obvious flaws in the argument.

 

The GWR coaches WERE Hawksworths - corridor composites. There were three, painted lined green and used in Gloucester Cross-Country units as strengtheners on the PDn-Oxford services to create a 3+4 seven-car train. . The Colletts were much earlier, and were used to extend the two-car GWR units to three cars. I do not believe the Hawksworths were used with 117s. They were used within a three-car 119 so that there was gangway access to a vehicle with a traditional side corridor and compartments. I photographed them on the dump at Swindon around 1964/5. (CJL)

[MJI]

Hi Johnster.

 

The coaches used augment the Gloucester Cross Country units to 4 car were Hawksworth CKs.  The first of Reading's Class 117 Pressed steel units to have gangways were rebuilt so they could be used with the Hawksworth coaches. All 117s, 118s, and I think WR based 116s were gangway fitted by the mid 70s. Collet coaches were used to increase the seating in GWR twin units.

 

Pretty sure all WR 116 were gangwayed as I was surprised not being able to go between cars on a Tyseley set.

 

I think the 116s were mainly Cardiff Valleys so needed through access for checking tickets.

 

Never been in a WR DMU without gangways EXCEPT single cars

[Clive Mortimore]

Pretty sure all WR 116 were gangwayed as I was surprised not being able to go between cars on a Tyseley set.

 

I think the 116s were mainly Cardiff Valleys so needed through access for checking tickets.

 

Never been in a WR DMU without gangways EXCEPT single cars

When new the Derby, Pressed Steel and BRCW 3 car suburban units were non gangway. The WR fitted GWR type gangways from the mid 60s. The Tyseley class 116 were ordered by the WR but after boundary changes became LMR stock were not gangway fitted until just before withdrawal. Other 116s that were deemed surplus to the WR in the late 60s which had been transferred to the LMR, ER and ScR remained non-gangway.

[Flying Pig]

Well, I couldn't. Some multiple units used what were fundamentally mk1 coaches, notably the Swindon 4-car Inter-City (on B4 bogies) and Clacton Electrics (on Commonwealths), and the Trans-Pennine 5-car sets used coaches of the same profile,

The Clacton Electrics, like most EMUs of their generation, were of mk1 profile, but as far as I know only the Clayton DMUs were (probably because Clayton had already built mk1 hauled stock). Unlike mk1s the Swindon-built units you mention are clearly flat-sided above the turnunder, similar (but sure as eggs not identical) to numerous other classes from both railway workshops and private builders, and as you say the windows are quite diferent.

 

The variety of bodywork amongst essentially identical 1st gen DMU types continues to amaze me, particularly when a high degree of mechanical standardisation was achieved. In contrast, carriages and EMUs built smultaneously with the DMUs managed the required variety of window and door arrangements with a very limited set of elements. It makes things interesting for enthusiasts but it's a bit of a pain for the modeller.

 

Edit: cross-posted with Clive re. Swindon units.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Flying Pig

[crazynitwit]

I would certainly hope so...

When I posted that suggestion it seemed okay, but afterward it occurred to me that it probably wouldn't work.