Kings Cross York Road & Suburban Platforms

[Mike Storey]

Just to step back a little ("fake news" being used on RMWeb??), I have to admit one thing.

 

I have spent a lifetime believing that the shape of the GN Hotel was due to the shape of the Hotel Curve (I seem to recall this was taught in my primary school?). Whereas, the maps submitted would appear to show that it followed the shape of the Old St Pancras Road! If that map is not a Russian plot, then I must face yet another demolition of my understanding of key aspects of railway architecture.

[Nearholmer]

You went to a good primary school!

 

We used to have to learn things like bible stories, how t9 play a recorder, and fractions, nothing like as interesting as why the GNR built its hotels the shape it did.

[Mike Storey]

You went to a good primary school!

 

We used to have to learn things like bible stories, how t9 play a recorder, and fractions, nothing like as interesting as why the GNR built its hotels the shape it did.

 

I may have that wrong.....it is possible, as I know only too well these days.

 

But I am sure I resisted the recorder, but not fractions. It was long division that determined I would never be an engineer. Trying to teach me that is how my father claims to have lost most of his hair. Although, I blame Brylcreem.

[chris p bacon]

That would seem unnecessary with Kings Cross (Met) platforms.

 

 

I will have to look that up but I thought the platforms at Kings Cross (Met) were built at the same time as the Widened Lines & Hotel Curve.

 

 

Just coming back to this.

 

A quick look at a couple of books and I've picked out this as an example.

 

The Great British Railway Station. Kings Cross -  Paul Anderson (Irwell) 

Page 31. 

Tunnels were delved in the 1860's to connect with the East-West running lines of the Met rlwy, Down trains leaving the Met tunnels emerged from the widened lines on the West side of the station - The 'Hotel Curve' and for some years simply set back into the terminus for passengers to board or alight.

Page 36

Trains off the Met continued to set back into the Departure platforms until Hotel Curve was given its own platform on 1st February 1878

 

I've read it in other GN history but haven't looked those out (might be society publications)

[Clive Mortimore]

Just coming back to this.

 

A quick look at a couple of books and I've picked out this as an example.

 

The Great British Railway Station. Kings Cross -  Paul Anderson (Irwell) 

Page 31. 

Tunnels were delved in the 1860's to connect with the East-West running lines of the Met rlwy, Down trains leaving the Met tunnels emerged from the widened lines on the West side of the station - The 'Hotel Curve' and for some years simply set back into the terminus for passengers to board or alight.

Page 36

Trains off the Met continued to set back into the Departure platforms until Hotel Curve was given its own platform on 1st February 1878

 

I've read it in other GN history but haven't looked those out (might be society publications)

Hi Dave

 

A practice that was repeated in later days. Michael Harris in a 1968/9/70ish Railway World article on Kings Cross stated that ECS ran to Moorgate, via York Road then back to the Cross. They reversed back into the suburban platforms. This apparently was to keep the throat clear of movements from the Up relief road across to the suburban platforms which blocked the whole station. These were trains being readied for the evening rush, this kept them out the way during the afternoon when there were a large number of mainline departures. I have a copy of the 1969 working timetable and (from memory) there are three such movements. 

Edited February 6, 2018 by Clive Mortimore

[Joseph_Pestell]

Ah, you’re right JP, that is York Road curve in the ‘yellow’ one, nicely aligned with the 1871 map as linked by Keefer.

 

The first and third look consistent with K+ Met, as viewed by an artist not used to these things, to me, assuming both to be pre-Widened Lines and pre-York Road curve turning east, or perhaps that ‘bay’ is York Road curve, extending through the station, but before WL.

 

We need to go through the sequential plan-drawing exercise that we resorted to before ...... it all changed so quickly.

 

What is interesting, if we do accept that the first and third do show K+ Met, is the Broad Gauge, because there appears to be some debate about whether BG trains went beyond K+ to Farringdon ...... I’m not up on all that, so would be interested to learn.

 

Kevin

Taking a closer look at those engravings, they do show the same station. One can see the entrance to the York Way tunnel below the station building.

 

Love the very shed-like GW broad-gauge carriages. Just like in Railway Ribaldry.

 

I have never heard any questioning that broad gauge trains did not reach Farringdon. Surely they must have done, at very least for goods trains to reach Smithfield.

 

There was some difficulty at the time of opening which, IIRC, led to the Met borrowing some "narrow gauge" trains from the GN. But it was resolved rapidly after which GW broad gauge trains ran over the whole line.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just to step back a little ("fake news" being used on RMWeb??), I have to admit one thing.

 

I have spent a lifetime believing that the shape of the GN Hotel was due to the shape of the Hotel Curve (I seem to recall this was taught in my primary school?). Whereas, the maps submitted would appear to show that it followed the shape of the Old St Pancras Road! If that map is not a Russian plot, then I must face yet another demolition of my understanding of key aspects of railway architecture.

 

I, too, have always believed this. Although it was my father that taught it to me not my primary school.

 

Let's face it, being called the Hotel Curve does imply some causality.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I may have that wrong.....it is possible, as I know only too well these days.

 

But I am sure I resisted the recorder, but not fractions. It was long division that determined I would never be an engineer. Trying to teach me that is how my father claims to have lost most of his hair. Although, I blame Brylcreem.

 

Although I am no mathematician, I never had much problem with long division, even when it involved ounces, pounds, stones and cwt., or pounds, shillings, pence and halfpennies. We even did some with farthings although they had ceased to exist ten years previously.

 

Strangely, when I did a term at school in France, I found that they learned a completely different way of doing long division. Some of the pupils there who struggled with their method managed perfectly well when I explained the English  method to them.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi Dave

 

A practice that was repeated in later days. Michael Harris in a 1968/9/70ish Railway World article on Kings Cross stated that ECS ran to Moorgate, via York Road then back to the Cross. They reversed back into the suburban platforms. This apparently was to keep the throat clear of movements from the Up relief road across to the suburban platforms which blocked the whole station. These were trains being readied for the evening rush, this kept them out the way during the afternoon when there were a large number of mainline departures. I have a copy of the 1969 working timetable and (from memory) there are three such movements. 

 

That brings back memories! I remember seeing those trains with my father. We thought it strange that empty trains were running westwards from Moorgate during the early rush hour.

[Enterprisingwestern]

Although I am no mathematician, I never had much problem with long division, even when it involved ounces, pounds, stones and cwt., or pounds, shillings, pence and halfpennies. We even did some with farthings although they had ceased to exist ten years previously.

 

Strangely, when I did a term at school in France, I found that they learned a completely different way of doing long division. Some of the pupils there who struggled with their method managed perfectly well when I explained the English  method to them.

 

I had similar issues when my chidren were at primary school. All the rage back then was "chunking", which involved doing a wild arse guess at the answer, then doing a set of calculations that would do credit to Alan Turing to come up with the answer. When I taught them "proper" long division they understood it somewhat better, although their teacher was less impressed when the kids quoted my words and asked why they had to do it the stupid way!

 

Mike.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I may have that wrong.....it is possible, as I know only too well these days.

 

But I am sure I resisted the recorder, but not fractions. It was long division that determined I would never be an engineer. Trying to teach me that is how my father claims to have lost most of his hair. Although, I blame Brylcreem.

 

We still learn the recorder in the school I work in. I even have to join in....  

 

EEEDCFFEEEDCFF............

[Joseph_Pestell]

We still learn the recorder in the school I work in. I even have to join in....

 

EEEDCFFEEEDCFF............

I think the recorder has probably done more damage to appreciation of music than anything else.

 

Similarly the "poetry" taught in primary schools leads to wholesale rejection of proper literature.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I think the recorder has probably done more damage to appreciation of music than anything else.

 

With the violin not far behind it.

 

Mike.

[jamie92208]

Well you get what you pay for.  I've just discovered this thread and have wasted a large part of the morning reading through it.   It's absolutely fascinating.  I did some spotting at the Cross in the early 70's and was fascinated by the down working from Morrgate coming up out of that tunnel into Platform 16.  To my mind they looked just like toothpaste being squeezed out of a tube.  The up working just seemed to disappear of the face of the earth as if they'd been swallowed up.   The whole area is fascinating and perhaps one day someone will do a 3D model of the area showing all the tunnels under KX nd StP including the tube lines and the Fleet Sewer.  

 

Jamie 

[Enterprisingwestern]

Well you get what you pay for.  I've just discovered this thread and have wasted a large part of the morning reading through it.   It's absolutely fascinating.  I did some spotting at the Cross in the early 70's and was fascinated by the down working from Morrgate coming up out of that tunnel into Platform 16.  To my mind they looked just like toothpaste being squeezed out of a tube.  The up working just seemed to disappear of the face of the earth as if they'd been swallowed up.   The whole area is fascinating and perhaps one day someone will do a 3D model of the area showing all the tunnels under KX nd StP including the tube lines and the Fleet Sewer.  

 

Jamie 

 

Wasted????????

Tut tut Jamie!

 

Mike.

[caradoc]

My first ever visit to Kings X (September 1972) is one of the best memories of my youthful spotting days; Deltics, 11xx 47s, the constant shuffle of locos to, from and within the loco sidings, and last but most certainly not least the 31 hauled trains of suburban stock appearing and disappearing. When the time machine is finally perfected, that's the first place I'm going.

[D854_Tiger]

My first ever visit to Kings X (September 1972) is one of the best memories of my youthful spotting days; Deltics, 11xx 47s, the constant shuffle of locos to, from and within the loco sidings, and last but most certainly not least the 31 hauled trains of suburban stock appearing and disappearing. When the time machine is finally perfected, that's the first place I'm going.

 

In those days, we didn't enjoy the plethora of rail atlases we have today.

 

I was completely baffled by stations in the timetable called Kings Cross LT and, even on my first Saturday visit there, alighting at York Road and wondering why the rest of the pax were staying on.

 

Then coming across the extra two platforms at Farringdon, without juice, and wondering what they could be used for. It never occurred to me that they could be main line given they gave all the appearance of being disused and the station only had LT signage.

 

As for the Hotel Curve, I had no idea, why was I ever going to look that way at KX when I had five Deltics competing for my attention.

 

It was a railway that kept its secret well from us younger cranks, from afar, given it was very much a peak time only operation.

 

I could kick myself now, though Thameslink did eventually give me the opportunity to experience this fascinating piece of railway and its Victorian rat hole atmosphere.

[Velopeur]

“The original line was only to Farringdon. KX came a little later.”

 

Are you sure you’ve go your geography the right way round?

 

Farringdon is east of K+, which is why the ILN ‘opening day’ edition, when showing all the stations, included K+. It was one of the initial stations.

 

Sorry, only just got back to this. Guilty of too much shorthand! By KX, longhand, this would be the connection from the GNR terminus (Kings X) to the Met. which was done as part of the widening (Widened Lines) and extension to Moorgate. The original line to the terminus at Farringdon, via Kings Cross Met was 2 track only. The 4 track line was only opened throughout in 1866 IIRC - 3 years after the initial opening.

 

I have walked any number of times from St Pancras to Farringdon and beyond. The most ambitious was a walk via Tower Bridge to Limehouse basin, round the Regents Canal to Little Venice and down the branch to Paddington, then back to St Pancras. On that walk alone, I effectively walked the entire length of the Metropolitan from Paddington to Aldgate. I am well aware of the geography therefore, though I can understand how i must have confused you.

 

A well known map site has a map of (supposedly!) 1851 showing the route of the Met around Kings Cross. I have compared this with the 1874 map, roughly at the same scale. It is interesting that whilst the footprint of the trackbed either side of Kings Cross Met station appears only wide enough for 2 tracks on the earlier map, the footprint of the station itself is just as wide as on the 1874 map.

 

[Nearholmer]

Understood (now), and I surmise that the station was built with expansion in mind, although if you look at the ‘yellow’ engraving, it looks to me as if they engaged in some “interesting” structural engineering, which might not have stood the test of time or modern approval regimes.

 

There were definitely “brave” methods in play at this time, because they managed to drop a girder on a passing passenger train when building Smithfield goods station, and Earls Court Station structure was a bit of a tottering heap, which had to be thoroughly re-engineered about fifteen years ago to prevent it collapsing.

[APOLLO]

Not York Rd but where does this fairly new 3 track tunnel go to - looks like under St Pancras - and what trains use it. ?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5405802,-0.1224807,288m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

The white ballasted new tracks bottom left.

 

Also found this photo. You can perhaps work out platform width from this.

 

 

An interesting area - even today.

 

Brit15

[iands]

Not York Rd but where does this fairly new 3 track tunnel go to - looks like under St Pancras - and what trains use it. ?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5405802,-0.1224807,288m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

The white ballasted new tracks bottom left.

 

Also found this photo. You can perhaps work out platform width from this.

 

8565947274_ac8d6613c9_b.jpg

 

An interesting area - even today.

 

Brit15

 

Hi Brit15,

 

The new tracks connect to St Pancras for the Thameslink services, and there's actually only two tracks (an Up and a Down).

 

Regards, Ian.

[Nearholmer]

.

[APOLLO]

Hi Brit15,

 

The new tracks connect to St Pancras for the Thameslink services, and there's actually only two tracks (an Up and a Down).

 

Regards, Ian.

 

Thanks for that but 3 tracks seem to be entering the tunnel. Is this line in service yet ?

 

Brit15

[iands]

Thanks for that but 3 tracks seem to be entering the tunnel. Is this line in service yet ?

 

Brit15

 

I believe so, but perhaps only for "testing" purposes at the moment (I noticed recently on "OpenTrainTimes.com" that there was a block on the lines). Not sure if the services actually start in May with the usual timetable change. Can anyone else out there confirm this?

 

Regards, Ian.

[jamie92208]

I believe so, but perhaps only for "testing" purposes at the moment (I noticed recently on "OpenTrainTimes.com" that there was a block on the lines). Not sure if the services actually start in May with the usual timetable change. Can anyone else out there confirm this?

 

Regards, Ian.

 

I think they are in service for testing and training and for stock movements to the Thameslink depot at Hornsey.   They are actually two separate tunnels that then form a burrowing junction to the north end of St Pancras Thameslink.  You can see the tunnel mouths and junctions from the platforms at StP.  I believe someone asked, several pages ago, if the new St Pancras Thameslink was built on a new alignment.   As far as I know I was built as a concrete box round the existing tunnel then opened out.

 

Jamie