Kings Cross York Road & Suburban Platforms

[robertcwp]

Great thread

I started spotting at Kings Cross in 1982 so I missed all of this

The pictures of 31s diving into narrow looking tunnels fascinating.

 

When was the suburban stock withdrawn

The last of the Mark I non-gangwayed stock was withdrawn in 1977.

[jonny777]

Great thread

I started spotting at Kings Cross in 1982 so I missed all of this

The pictures of 31s diving into narrow looking tunnels fascinating.

 

When was the suburban stock withdrawn

 

 

 

If you want to see how things were ten years before you started, I can recommend this video which has lots of footage of the station, loco yard and the climb up Holloway Bank before the track rationalisation. 

 

http://www.videoscene.co.uk/kings-cross-suburban.html

[Nimbus]

The last of the Mark I non-gangwayed stock was withdrawn in 1977.

It had lost most of its regular employment sometime previously, but had been retained in anticipation of the 'Clearing The Throat' remodelling at Kings Cross, which would temporarily render some suburban platforms inaccessible. The non-gangwayed stock was brought back to enable the affected services to be diverted to York Road and Platform 16, the Widened Lines being used to reverse the empty stock.

 

Demonstrating one advantage of a vertically-integrated railway.

 

The Nim.

 

[Edit: qualification in view of post #354]

Edited December 27, 2017 by Nimbus

[robertcwp]

It had lost its regular employment sometime previously, but had been retained in anticipation of the 'Clearing The Throat' remodelling at Kings Cross, which would temporarily render some suburban platforms inaccessible. The non-gangwayed stock was brought back to enable the affected services to be diverted to York Road and Platform 16, the Widened Lines being used to reverse the empty stock.

 

Demonstrating one advantage of a vertically-integrated railway.

 

The Nim.

Two outer suburban services remained non-gangwayed loco-hauled until 30 September 1977, after which they were replaced by the first 312 units.

[Guest]

On the subject of the Mk1 suburban non-corridor stock, there is a set of 4 on my local preserved railway, the North Norfolk Railway, link to the coaching stock page below...

 

http://mandgn.org/page.php?pid=20

 

On taking a better look at this page, it shows a coach that I'm not familiar with and had never seen before. A joint 1st/3rd Class coach with lavatories, the 1st Class compartments accessed from a side corridor. The web page states that although originally used on Liverpool Street - Ipswich services, it ended its days on GN services out of Kings Cross towards the end of 1974.

 

Image © Steve Allen/M&GN Joint Railway Society.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Pete

 

The outer suburban trains had these, CL and the SO(L) in there formations, normally six coaches with two CLs and three SO(L) and a BS. Formations would vary. They didn't go down the widen lines that often. The trains using the widened lines were mainly 5 or 6 coach long, depending on time period and were formed of five S and one BS, the BS normally being the second coach at the country end. In steam days there was a BS either end of the train. Robert Carol possibly has more information than me.

 

I started these from Bachmann Mk 1 suburbans a long time ago

CL, Second class compartment side.

CL, First class compartment side.

SO(L) Compartment door window opened out to represent toilet window and quarter lights blanked off.

 

Edit, there are some brass overlay kits available, I think Bill Bedford does some , not too sure who else does them. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[D854_Tiger]

It had lost its regular employment sometime previously, but had been retained in anticipation of the 'Clearing The Throat' remodelling at Kings Cross, which would temporarily render some suburban platforms inaccessible. The non-gangwayed stock was brought back to enable the affected services to be diverted to York Road and Platform 16, the Widened Lines being used to reverse the empty stock.

 

Demonstrating one advantage of a vertically-integrated railway.

 

The Nim.

 

The widened lines and more especially Moorgate station seemed highly unsuited to loco hauled operation to me.

 

What was the operational routine at Moorgate did a spare loco, needed for reversal, have to follow every Moorgate bound train.

[Fat Controller]

The widened lines and more especially Moorgate station seemed highly unsuited to loco hauled operation to me.

 

What was the operational routine at Moorgate did a spare loco, needed for reversal, have to follow every Moorgate bound train.

You'd only need to do it after the first train; this would release the loco from the first train, allowing it to do the same for the second train and so on. This was the procedure used for the intensive 'Jazz' service from Liverpool St, I believe.

[Dava]

Hi Pete

 

The outer suburban trains had these, CL and the SO(L) in there formations, normally six coaches with two CLs and three SO(L) and a BS. Formations would vary. They didn't go down the widen lines that often. The trains using the widened lines were mainly 5 or 6 coach long, depending on time period and were formed of five S and one BS, the BS normally being the second coach at the country end. In steam days there was a BS either end of the train.

That's interesting Clive because it suggests the KX Moorgate services were 2nd class only. In the final week I don't recall any compartment firsts and there were no CLs I saw in the Moorgate trains. I'm sure some one can confirm if they were 2nd class only trains. In answer to D854 Tiger, loco-hauled compartment-only stock had been the only way of hauling the numbers & weight of commuters out of the City. As the AM and PM trains ran in a sequence, the 'Up' [inbound] loco of a train would haul the next outbound train out of Moorgate and there would be LE movements to haul the first outbound, and the final inbound loco would run out LE, if that makes sense as the films show.

 

Dava

[Nearholmer]

Using a 'turnover engine' was very common practice on suburban operations, which is why good old CJF designed a loco spur into Minories.

 

The North London and the District were probably even better practiced in the art than the Great Eastern, and they could turn round trains at the rate of about twelve an hour, using two tracks, a scissors, two platforms, and a loco spur. Broad Street was really nothing more than that, multiplied several times over, and the loco spurs had wonderful little coaling platforms, with awnings, like passenger platforms.

 

The 'London Standard' 4-4-0T, originated by Breyer Peacock, but copied and adapted by several companies, incorporated little features to aid rapid operation, the niftiest being that the tank fillers were in the cab, at the back of the tank, so that the fireman could top the ranks up at an intermediate station by simply darting on and off the footplate to a strategically positioned water column. Every second counts in this sort of operation.

[jonny777]

That's interesting Clive because it suggests the KX Moorgate services were 2nd class only. In the final week I don't recall any compartment firsts and there were no CLs I saw in the Moorgate trains. I'm sure some one can confirm if they were 2nd class only trains. In answer to D854 Tiger, loco-hauled compartment-only stock had been the only way of hauling the numbers & weight of commuters out of the City. As the AM and PM trains ran in a sequence, the 'Up' [inbound] loco of a train would haul the next outbound train out of Moorgate and there would be LE movements to haul the first outbound, and the final inbound loco would run out LE, if that makes sense as the films show.

 

Dava

 

 

 

I was told many decades ago that the inner suburban services from Moorgate were 2nd class only, and the outer suburbans from Kings Cross had the 1st class and lav coaches in their formation. 

 

I made a note of some of the formations in 1976, although this was late in the day for the services and stock may have been swapped around by then. 

 

46087 46147 46213 43357 46102 46240 

 

46127 46232 43123 46130 46131

 

46211 46141 43152 46244 46215 

 

46129 46220 43138 46214 46094

 

46200 46128 46126 43195 46135

 

46098 46166 46233 43159 46162 46203

 

46210 46140 43145 46108 46119 46159

 

43046 48006 46212 43161 46240 46116

 

48001 48012 43017 43042 46156 46141

 

46122 46168 46112 43157 46165 46237

 

However on another day I added

 

43046 43140 48006 48021 43017 43042 

 

So the formations were not that fixed. 

[Swindon 123]

You'd only need to do it after the first train; this would release the loco from the first train, allowing it to do the same for the second train and so on. This was the procedure used for the intensive 'Jazz' service from Liverpool St, I believe.

I used to travel in from Chingford to Liverpool St when I worked at KX, generally with the driver, especially the Chingford drivers, and a few of them remembered the days of the steam jazz trains. They said the trains could turn around inside of two minutes, with a outward engine coupling up to the rear coach, the front one on the outward train, almost as fast as the fireman could uncouple the incoming loco from the train. When the EMU service started they had to allow more turnaround time for the trains, as it took longer for the driver to walk from one end of a 9 car train, especially in rush hour, than it did to couple/uncouple the steam locos.

 

Paul J.

 

Edited to correct some spelling mistakes and correct some grammar.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Swindon 123

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I was told many decades ago that the inner suburban services from Moorgate were 2nd class only, and the outer suburbans from Kings Cross had the 1st class and lav coaches in their formation. 

 

I made a note of some of the formations in 1976, although this was late in the day for the services and stock may have been swapped around by then. 

 

46087 46147 46213 43357 46102 46240 

 

46127 46232 43123 46130 46131

 

46211 46141 43152 46244 46215 

 

46129 46220 43138 46214 46094

 

46200 46128 46126 43195 46135

 

46098 46166 46233 43159 46162 46203

 

46210 46140 43145 46108 46119 46159

 

43046 48006 46212 43161 46240 46116

 

48001 48012 43017 43042 46156 46141

 

46122 46168 46112 43157 46165 46237

 

However on another day I added

 

43046 43140 48006 48021 43017 43042 

 

So the formations were not that fixed. 

 

Judging by all those numbers, quite an array of Duchess and Princess Royal pacifics, plus a lot of Royal Scots. a few 8Fs and some HST power cars made it to Moorgate.    

[caradoc]

I have a copy of the May 1969-May 1970 GN Suburban Timetable booklet, which shows all trains to and from Moorgate as Second Class only. At this time there were still Saturday morning Up trains to Moorgate, with the return Down trains departing around lunchtime. Also, there were no morning peak Down departures from Moorgate, and no evening peak Up arrivals, so the stock must have run ECS from and to Moorgate.

[thegreenhowards]

Guys,

 

This is a fascinating thread which I’ve just read right through from the beginning. Many thanks for all the superb photos. I have a long term ambition to model the whole of Kings Cross in the transition era, so some of these photos will be very useful.

 

This shot particularly interested me

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16236990@N08/2983917538/in/photostream/

 

I don’t recognise the wooden offices above the platform. Which platform is this?

 

Regards

 

Andy

[Clive Mortimore]

Guys,

 

This is a fascinating thread which I’ve just read right through from the beginning. Many thanks for all the superb photos. I have a long term ambition to model the whole of Kings Cross in the transition era, so some of these photos will be very useful.

 

This shot particularly interested me

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16236990@N08/2983917538/in/photostream/

 

I don’t recognise the wooden offices above the platform. Which platform is this?

 

Regards

 

Andy

Hi Andy

 

It is the country end of platform 1, you can see the offices (parcels offices ?) behind D5615 in this photo.

Platform 1 saw a lot of incoming parcels traffic. The road vans collecting the parcels were driven under the offices on platform 1 coming in above the York Road tunnel and exiting at the front of the station.

 

Platform 1 road entrance.

 

York Road entrance.

 

This was the exit for the parcels vans.

[don]

 1970' and 1980's?? I was an avid watcher of the ECML at Oakleigh Park and New Barnet from 1969 until 1975 (living at the time just 1,000 yards from both), and then from 1987 actually working at the Cross. I never saw one.

When i was a second man at KX in the 60's the "Big Sulzers" class 45/46 were the preferred Deltic standby loco as the early class 47's were not all that reliable and the 40's,well the lovely big lumps that they were would be struggling to get to 40 at Hornsey but looking forward to the dip down to Wood Green to get a bit more speed for the long climb ahead!

By the back end of the 60's they seemed to have sorted the 47's and they could fly.just lacked the "official" 100mph top speed.

Re Snow Hill,it was all diesel when i was there but cross London freights would go through the Farringdon platforms and come to stand  at the bottom of the bank in the tunnel opposite the low level signal box,once stationary the signals would come off for banker to come forward,the rear of the southbound would usually be just inside the tunnel mouth,once buffered up there were two wires on brackets at cab window height that you squeezed together,this illuminated a circular white lamp with a black letter B in it to indicate to the train loco that you were buffered up and ready to push,i think the banker got a similar indication when the time came to start the push,i say think as it was 50yrs ago!!!!   

Gone but not completely forgotten!

[don]

Hi Andy

 

It is the country end of platform 1, you can see the offices (parcels offices ?) behind D5615 in this photo.

Platform 1 saw a lot of incoming parcels traffic. The road vans collecting the parcels were driven under the offices on platform 1 coming in above the York Road tunnel and exiting at the front of the station.

 

in 1.jpg

Platform 1 road entrance.

 

in 2.jpg

York Road entrance.

 

out.jpg

This was the exit for the parcels vans.

 

Those pictures of the platform 1 entrance/exit are interesting and rarely seen,at the country end of the platform the building shown behind 5615 i think housed tools and equipment for plate layers and S&D,there was a 2 story building, i think it was at the very platform end that upstairs had a station staff canteen and below the mess room for station shunters.

Most mail and news paper trains were handled off of platform 1&2.

there were two mail/sleeper trains that arrived at about 3-3.15 am and it was an absolute madhouse with barrow loads of mail being moved to the waiting vans on the loading bays.

These mail trains were followed by a couple more mail/parcel trains but of lesser importance,but it remained very busy up to the start of the peak.

Sleeping cars were quickly released and platforms 8&10 became stabling roads until about 8-8.30 when the coaches would taken out to BoundsGreen for washing and Hornsey carriage sidings for cleaning and readied for another night. 

Don.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[don]

 

Hi Andy

 

It is the country end of platform 1, you can see the offices (parcels offices ?) behind D5615 in this photo.

Platform 1 saw a lot of incoming parcels traffic. The road vans collecting the parcels were driven under the offices on platform 1 coming in above the York Road tunnel and exiting at the front of the station.

 

in 1.jpg

Platform 1 road entrance.

 

in 2.jpg

York Road entrance.

 

out.jpg

This was the exit for the parcels vans.

 

Those pictures of the platform 1 entrance/exit are interesting and rarely seen,at the country end of the platform the building shown behind 5615 i think housed tools and equipment for plate layers and S&D,there was a 2 story building, i think it was at the very platform end that upstairs had a station staff canteen and below the mess room for station shunters.

Most mail and news paper trains were handled off of platform 1&2.

there were two mail/sleeper trains that arrived at about 3-3.15 am and it was an absolute madhouse with barrow loads of mail being moved to the waiting vans on the loading bays.

These mail trains were followed by a couple more mail/parcel trains but of lesser importance,but it remained very busy up to the start of the peak.

Sleeping cars were quickly released and platforms 8&10 became stabling roads until about 8-8.30 when the coaches would taken out to BoundsGreen for washing and Hornsey carriage sidings for cleaning and readied for another night. 

Don.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OOPPPSSSS!!!!!!!! must take more care!!

Don.

[thegreenhowards]

Thanks Clive. I guess it was obviously platform 1 - sorry for the stupid question! That wooden office threw me completely; it looks more like a medieval banqueting hall than an office block! Not the easiest building to model either.

 

I’m more used to your other photos, and they look like more conventional buildings.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[wagonman]

 

 

out.jpg

This was the exit for the parcels vans.

 

 

...and just to the right, across the road, was the famous model railway emporium where oft my scholar's mite was spent...

[Foulounoux]

Those pictures take me back Saturday mornings my father would be on rota for the post for Lee Conservancy Catchment Board in Brettenham House on Waterloo Bridge

We would often accompany him as a cheap day out and I can remember getting off at York Road walking up that ramp then back into the Cross to get to the tube

 

Happy Days

 

 

Colin

[don]

...and just to the right, across the road, was the famous model railway emporium where oft my scholar's mite was spent...

and a bit further up Pentonville Rd was Victors for us American modellers.!

[roythebus]

The service pattern was always a light engine to Moorgate, that would then be followed by either ECS or service train depending on morning or afternoon, the first LE would back on to the train and depart northwards, the uncoupled engine would go into the loco spur and await the second arrival etc. The last movement would be LE off the last arrival.

 

I read elsewhere recently that 6 car Cravens DMUs were prohibited from running to Moorgate so they had to keep the Mk1 suburban coaches. The coaches with toilets usually ran  the outer suburban services from KX. I don't recall the 5 car sets, but then being on the loco what was behind didn't matter that much! Sadly I never took much interest in what was in the consist.

[Mike Storey]

Hi Andy

 

It is the country end of platform 1, you can see the offices (parcels offices ?) behind D5615 in this photo.

Platform 1 saw a lot of incoming parcels traffic. The road vans collecting the parcels were driven under the offices on platform 1 coming in above the York Road tunnel and exiting at the front of the station.

 

in 1.jpg

Platform 1 road entrance.

 

in 2.jpg

York Road entrance.

 

out.jpg

This was the exit for the parcels vans.

 

Great photos which bring back many memories (from my teens). By the time I started at the Cross (87), the York Road station buildings had gone, the single storey portacabin became two storey and housed all the carriage cleaners, shunters, M&EE and others,plus stores (until these were moved over to the West Side) and all that was left of the large wooden building on Platform 1 was the compound underneath (in which on-train catering stores were often held as the underground catering complex often flooded), which later became the works storage site for Platform 0, and then was removed completely. The mail and parcels road had become the main taxi rank, until displaced by Platform 0.