Kings Cross York Road & Suburban Platforms

[russ p]

When compared with this photo you can see that post 1977 things were changed.

 

The 31 in that link is very tight in the bore, I know its coming uphill but even so looks tight

[jonny777]

Is that your opinion, or are you questioning 100 years of the gauge limitations?

[russ p]

Is that your opinion, or are you questioning 100 years of the gauge limitations?

 

A bit of both really

Edited November 30, 2017 by russ p

[chris p bacon]

The 31 in that link is very tight in the bore, I know its coming uphill but even so looks tight

 

It's the perspective.

 

If you study the pic I reckon apron half the Brian is outside of the tunnel, so looking at the gradient the front end is quite a bit higher giving the illusion it's scraped the tunnel top.

[D854_Tiger]

Pardon my igmorance, but what is a kinematic envelope, is it something The Odeon send their tickets out in?

 

Mike.

 

The width and height of the train plus the extra that's needed once that train is swaying and bouncing up and down on its suspension is called the kinematic envelope.

[Enterprisingwestern]

The width and height of the train plus the extra that's needed once that train is swaying and bouncing up and down on its suspension is called the kinematic envelope.

 

Clearance, as we old fuddy duddies would call it?

Methinks someone has had a university education somewhere along the way.

 

Mike.

[russ p]

It's the perspective.

 

If you study the pic I reckon apron half the Brian is outside of the tunnel, so looking at the gradient the front end is quite a bit higher giving the illusion it's scraped the tunnel top.

That's what I thought but still tighter than a lot of tunnels

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Well trains got round the Hotel Curve for many decades, so we don't really need to worry about it...........

[Foulounoux]

The numbering was strange! I don't think the missing numbers ever existed and back then there was one track fewer under the suburban trainshed. My best guess is that there was an intention to extend the suburban station that never happened.

 

My recollection was that the Hotel Curve platform was 15 and the further platform was 17 but it was a long time ago!

The missing numbers were in the main low numbered and as it was renumbered more than once it can be confusing

 

Early 1900's. York Rd Arrival and Departure in main shed. PlatEDC loco yard Sub B hotel curve. Plat A

 

1940's YR 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,10 mainline. 11,12,13,14,15. 16 hotel curve,17

 

1970's pre clearing the throat. YR 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 mainline 9,10,11,12,13. 14 hotel curve,15. This is how I first remeber it

 

Post 1978 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 mainline. 9,10,11 suburban

 

And then more recently addition of P0

 

Sources: Paul Anderson and John Christopher's books on the station

[Guest]

It's the perspective.

 

If you study the pic I reckon apron half the Brian is outside of the tunnel, so looking at the gradient the front end is quite a bit higher giving the illusion it's scraped the tunnel top.

 

Are you using a mobile device with a small keypad, by any chance, or is that the curse of predictive text...?

[TheSignalEngineer]

Kinematic Envelope is the actual space taken up by vehicles when moving rather than a static profile. It depends on vehicle behaviour relating to such parameters as wheelbase, end overhang, speed, track curvature and cant.

Edited November 30, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer

[Dava]

The 31 in that link is very tight in the bore, I know its coming uphill but even so looks tight

The Gresley N2s were built to the max loading gauge, a big engine, and they went up the Hotel Curve like ferrets up drainpipes for 40 years. Check out the surviving 1744.

 

Dava

[Guest]

The Gresley N2s were built to the max loading gauge...

 

Speaking of N2s (see pic below)...

Am I right in thinking that the sole survivor from the suburban side of Kings Cross station is the train shed over what is now platforms 9, 10 & 11?

Compared to the B&W picture, it just seems to have been reclad?

 

© Copyright Ben Brooksbank and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence

 

This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license

[Clive Mortimore]

Speaking of N2s (see pic below)...

Am I right in thinking that the sole survivor from the suburban side of Kings Cross station is the train shed over what is now platforms 9, 10 & 11?

Compared to the B&W picture, it just seems to have been reclad?

 

geograph-2370282-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg

© Copyright Ben Brooksbank and licensed for reuse under this Creative Commons Licence

 

800px-Kings_Cross_(Suburban)_station_(6394486003).jpg

This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 2.0 Generic license

Yes the old platforms 11, 12 and 13.

[chris p bacon]

Speaking of N2s (see pic below)...

Am I right in thinking that the sole survivor from the suburban side of Kings Cross station is the train shed over what is now platforms 9, 10 & 11?

 

 

Yes the old platforms 11, 12 and 13.

 

 

And which used to be the carriage shed/works long ago . . . . . . in a galaxy far away. . 

[Nearholmer]

Brilliant picture of the suburban side in days of yore.

 

Getting back to loading gauge and kinematic envelope for a minute:

 

- loading gauge is typically only a cross-section, it relates to the vehicle when static, and it (pretty obviously) has to be smaller all-round than structure gauge. The degree to which it is smaller takes into account how much the vehicle 'wobbles about' when in motion on track of all permissible alignments, permissible position of the track in relation to structures, centre-throw, and end-throw, which are particularly important with long vehicles;

 

- kinematic envelope is the three dimensional space that the vehicle occupies when moving along.

 

The old-style 'arch on a gallows' loading gauges used in goods yards were 'just about OK' for use with small wagons, which were moved at low speeds, where the kinematic envelope was not hugely different from the static envelope, and were very useful indeed to control gross overloading of open wagons.

 

If you look at old photos, a very high proportion of loads went sheeted in open wagons, and there were cost incentives to load them up to the very maximum volume, which was a special temptation with low-density cargo such as hay or straw, or boxes of lightweight things. So, the old-style gauge probably got called upon most for things like that.

 

There were always 'exceptional load inspectors', who measured-up loads on long un-enclosed vehicles, then consulted baffling tables of data, sucked their pencil, and decided which routes it was safe to send wagons by, and/or whether traffic on adjacent roads might need to be restricted, and/or speeds might need to be kept down to control 'wobble' (you can tell that I used to deal with these chaps when shifting big cable drums and transformers about).

 

Nowadays, there are so few open vehicles, and so few exceptional loads, and the kinematic envelopes of vehicles can be calculated very accurately using software, that there are probably only a handful of exceptional-load specialists in the country, and old-style loading gauges are redundant.

 

So ....... the greatest issue with hotel curve was the sharpness of its radius, and probably a lot of 'wriggle' and vertical transitions in the track, so although it's cross section was reasonable, long vehicles couldn't fit through due to end and centre throw. I think that Class 40 were banned for that reason, and possibly some coaches.

 

Sorry ...... bit of a ramble!

[TheSignalEngineer]

In loco hauled and DMU days the stock was all 57' or below IIRC. The EMUs in later days running through the Midland tunnels onto the Widened lines had tapered ends. There were some special wall mounted signalling equipment cases down there. The clearance was so tight that one had the door left off because the handle was hit by a train that got a bit of of a rock'n'roll on. 

[TrevorP1]

I had a friend, sadly no longer with us, who had fired N2s on the Kings Cross suburban. He swore that N2s when well worn would hit the sides of the tunnel on the Hotel Curve.

[D854_Tiger]

Getting back to loading gauge and kinematic envelope for a minute:

 

- loading gauge is typically only a cross-section, it relates to the vehicle when static, and it (pretty obviously) has to be smaller all-round than structure gauge. The degree to which it is smaller takes into account how much the vehicle 'wobbles about' when in motion on track of all permissible alignments, permissible position of the track in relation to structures, centre-throw, and end-throw, which are particularly important with long vehicles;

 

- kinematic envelope is the three dimensional space that the vehicle occupies when moving along.

 

 

I'm guessing there must actually be a third measure - that which is actually used.

 

The kinematic envelope plus an extra allowance to be on the safe side or does the kinematic envelope include that already.

 

Whatever to describe fully what is going on there needs to be three measures the actual size, the size when moving and the size when moving plus a factor of safety. Then I'm sure there must be cases where that factor of safety figure can be compromised by applying a speed limit as necessary.

 

Then I know this to be the case on the WCML, where certain speed limits are in place when tilting, precisely to reduce the size of the kinematic envelope.

 

Complicated stuff.

[Guest]

Without wishing to veer off-topic entirely... it's a wonder the Mk1 suburban stock was never fitted with window bars pre-dating that done to the EPB stock on the North London Line. Perhaps the Mk1 stock had windows with limited-opening? Then again, going back 40-odd years, H&S was in its infancy and perhaps we all just had more common sense...

Take a look at this video (posted earlier in the thread) from about 1:50, as the train enters Kings Cross from Hotel Curve. Clearance almost seems to be generous.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcpb9oZ6f3g

Edited December 1, 2017 by Pete 75C

[D854_Tiger]

Without wishing to veer off-topic entirely... it's a wonder the Mk1 suburban stock was never fitted with window bars pre-dating that done to the EPB stock on the North London Line. Perhaps the Mk1 stock had windows with limited-opening? Then again, going back 40-odd years, H&S was in its infancy and perhaps we all just had more common sense...

Take a look at this video from about 1:50, as the train enters Kings Cross from Hotel Curve.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcpb9oZ6f3g

 

I never tire of that video.

 

I simply cannot believe I once got off at York Road, the only time I ever visited, completely oblivious to where that railway ended up and missed out on a fascinating opportunity.

 

My head was full of Deltics at the time.

 

As for H&S, they had that, not really fair to suggest otherwise, they had one of these.

 

https://samtoddphoto.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/train-grave-yard-010312-122-copy.jpg

 

By all accounts a measure that worked highly effectively.

[D854_Tiger]

What I could never understand was why serve two City London termini (Broad Street and Moorgate) from the Great Northern when they were only a couple of streets apart.

 

Was that also the case for the Midland or was that just Moorgate.

 

Surely it would have been better to concentrate on one station and why persist with loco haulage, which must have been a real pain at Moorgate, when there were plenty of DMUs around better to manage with on the Widened Lines.

[Nearholmer]

Staying a tad off topic (tell me to shut up, if needs be):

 

D854

 

The 'missing bit' is the structure gauge, which again used to be viewed as a simple cross-section, but is now viewed as a three-dimensional set of limits.

 

In the traditional system, there was a defined clearance between loading gauge and structure gauge, which was greater higher up, to allow for 'wobble'.

 

Now, the structural limits are typically surveyed by laser, and turned into a model. Add a model of the track, and the models representing the kinematic envelopes of trains, and you can 'play trains' in VR, to see if things bang into one another.

 

By taking this approach, it is often possible to identify very localised 'pinch points' in the infrastructure, deal with them, and thereby allow fatter trains or higher speeds (fatter kinematic envelope).

[jonny777]

This is pure speculation, but the Cravens were only 9'2" wide, whereas most other 57' DMUs were 9'3". 

 

Now I don't know if that one inch was critical in the tunnels, but it was just a thought as to why they were used and (say) 57' Met Camms were not. 

[gordon s]

What I could never understand was why serve two City London termini (Broad Street and Moorgate) from the Great Northern when they were only a couple of streets apart.

 

Was that also the case for the Midland or was that just Moorgate.

 

Surely it would have been better to concentrate on one station and why persist with loco haulage, which must have been a real pain at Moorgate, when there were plenty of DMUs around better to manage with on the Widened Lines.

 

 

Apologies if my memory is all over the place, but the two stations were served by totally different lines.  Moorgate was north/south from Finsbury Park etc whereas Broad Street was served by the North London line that essentially went from West to East.  I'm guessing it would not have been possible to take them both into one terminus, but would be interested in hearing other views.

 

The North London Line was also electric whereas the GN was either steam or diesel, so that would have posed additional complications.