Kings Cross York Road & Suburban Platforms

[Mike Storey]

A photo I haven't seen before, and from an unusual viewpoint. It's a very useful detail shot of the normally unseen side of the passenger access ramp and the platform ramp arrangement. Unsure of the date of this, but I would guess it predates closure by at least a decade or two (or even longer)?

 

GN01.jpg

 

Edit: Photographer unknown, so cannot credit.

 

Very hard to date that, it could be well before or just after closure! Compare it to this, from the opposite perspective, which is July 77, just after closure (in March):

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/353965421/in/photostream/

 

and this taken just before closure (already posted above by someone else):

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/82097736@N00/8564849341/in/photostream/

 

You will note that the safety railing and notices have already been removed in just a few months, and your original photo does not show the safety railing either, which suggests it could equally be just after closure or many moons before, when such a mini-fence may not have been regarded as necessary!

[Mike Storey]

Brilliant picture of the suburban side in days of yore.

 

Getting back to loading gauge and kinematic envelope for a minute:

 

- loading gauge is typically only a cross-section, it relates to the vehicle when static, and it (pretty obviously) has to be smaller all-round than structure gauge. The degree to which it is smaller takes into account how much the vehicle 'wobbles about' when in motion on track of all permissible alignments, permissible position of the track in relation to structures, centre-throw, and end-throw, which are particularly important with long vehicles;

 

- kinematic envelope is the three dimensional space that the vehicle occupies when moving along.

 

The old-style 'arch on a gallows' loading gauges used in goods yards were 'just about OK' for use with small wagons, which were moved at low speeds, where the kinematic envelope was not hugely different from the static envelope, and were very useful indeed to control gross overloading of open wagons.

 

If you look at old photos, a very high proportion of loads went sheeted in open wagons, and there were cost incentives to load them up to the very maximum volume, which was a special temptation with low-density cargo such as hay or straw, or boxes of lightweight things. So, the old-style gauge probably got called upon most for things like that.

 

There were always 'exceptional load inspectors', who measured-up loads on long un-enclosed vehicles, then consulted baffling tables of data, sucked their pencil, and decided which routes it was safe to send wagons by, and/or whether traffic on adjacent roads might need to be restricted, and/or speeds might need to be kept down to control 'wobble' (you can tell that I used to deal with these chaps when shifting big cable drums and transformers about).

 

Nowadays, there are so few open vehicles, and so few exceptional loads, and the kinematic envelopes of vehicles can be calculated very accurately using software, that there are probably only a handful of exceptional-load specialists in the country, and old-style loading gauges are redundant.

 

So ....... the greatest issue with hotel curve was the sharpness of its radius, and probably a lot of 'wriggle' and vertical transitions in the track, so although it's cross section was reasonable, long vehicles couldn't fit through due to end and centre throw. I think that Class 40 were banned for that reason, and possibly some coaches.

 

Sorry ...... bit of a ramble!

 

There has been a very significant addition to the kinematic envelope calculations, ever since air bag suspension arrived, which is "failure mode". If a bag fails on the off-side i.e. towards the opposite track, causing the carriage to lean in that direction, and one fails in the same way on a train using that other track, the "new" envelope should allow those two trains still to pass without collision. (This "lean" is significantly greater than if an old-style leaf or coil primary suspension failed on previous vehicles). This allowance also applies to tunnels and bridges, for failure on either side, where such a glancing blow could be more serious.

 

In practice there are a number of locations where that separation cannot be provided economically, and more severe speed restrictions at those points had to be introduced, in mitigation. The likelihood of failures on two trains passing at the same time is pretty small, and the "collision" would be a glancing sideways impact, very unlikely to cause derailment, hence these mitigation were allowed by HMRI.

 

That fact alone would not have permitted Class 313's to use the York Road or Hotel Curve, nor a few other parts of the Widened Lines, without phenomenal expenditure particularly at cant rail level, even had the decision been made to keep them open and electrify them.

[simon b]

Very hard to date that, it could be well before or just after closure! Compare it to this, from the opposite perspective, which is July 77, just after closure (in March):

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/353965421/in/photostream/

 

and this taken just before closure (already posted above by someone else):

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/82097736@N00/8564849341/in/photostream/

 

You will note that the safety railing and notices have already been removed in just a few months, and your original photo does not show the safety railing either, which suggests it could equally be just after closure or many moons before, when such a mini-fence may not have been regarded as necessary!

I would say it's well before closure. The repeater signal on the wall of the passenger ramp is there, also the canopy hasn't had the section removed in the middle yet.

[pb_devon]

The banker was to help goods trains up Snow Hill to Holborn and sometimes up the Hotel Curve if the stalled on there. Manned by Hornsey drivers according to the FB 34A staff group.

Which begs the question.....what about freight use of this line? If I saw a banker in 1966 what freight passed this way then and when did it end?

[gordon s]

I'll need to dig out some books to check/confirm the information here, but here's a starting point...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widened_Lines

 

Whilst searching I found this video again with it's 'hip music' soundtrack...Showing my age...:-)

 

[Guest]

Whilst searching I found this video again with it's 'hip music' soundtrack...Showing my age...:-)

 

 

Absolutely fascinating - thanks for that.

[gordon s]

Sincere apologies for wandering off topic, but from the same stable another couple covering the various London stations and one on the Broad Street line.

 

Bit of a faux pas including Jimmy Saville.  Ain't hindsight wonderful...

 

 

[gordon s]

Oh gawd, another morning wasted...

 

More in this one, but it's green diesels (23.20 onwards) and a minute or two of blue and grey from 42.45.  Certainly some new footage I'd not seen before...

 

[Guest]

Gordon - I have a 180 mile drive and a night alone in the Croydon Aerodrome Hotel tonight. After a drink or two in the bar, you've saved me from whatever happens to be on hotel TV tonight. Must remember to charge the tablet and pack it...!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I'm sure I've seen a picture (possibly in an old Locospotters' Annual) of a Crompton (Class 33) heading north through KX on a mixed freight in the early 1960s.

[chris p bacon]

I'm sure I've seen a picture (possibly in an old Locospotters' Annual) of a Crompton (Class 33) heading north through KX on a mixed freight in the early 1960s.

 

There are quite a few showing the transfer of LT stock via the widened lines, inc battery locomotives.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Absolutely fascinating - thanks for that.

 

No wonder they brought in the Clean Air Act................

[Clive Mortimore]

Cross London freight via Snow Hill finished at the end of the 60s. The GNR goods shed at Farringdon and the Midland goods shed at Whitecross Street having closed prior to then.

There is a photo of a BRCW Type 3 hauling a freight through Kings Cross, having popped out of Hotel Curve Tunnel, in Power of the Class 33's.

 

The LT workings of stock to and from the Northern and Metropolitan line came down form Neasden on the Met as far as Frarringdon where it reversed back up to Kings Cross on the Widen Lines. From there it went to Drayton Park via Finsbury Park. The return journey took the reverse route.

[gordon s]

Again, apologies for off topic, but couldn't let this one pass.  Some film duplication, but a lot of stuff I hadn't seen before.  Great to hear Kenny Everett in his prime again....

 

[Rugd1022]

Again, apologies for off topic, but couldn't let this one pass.  Some film duplication, but a lot of stuff I hadn't seen before.  Great to hear Kenny Everett in his prime again....

 

 

Nice footage of WCML diesels under the wires at around 2.40 onwards, including a 40 on a six coach Euston-Northampton-Rugby stopper made up of LMS stock accompanied by the mighty Yardbirds!

Edited December 3, 2017 by Rugd1022

[Enterprisingwestern]

How do you make those Vimeos full screen, must be a way, but not to a computer dumbo such as me. When I click on YouTube I get the offer of full screen.

Am I missing something? (Yes).

 

Mike.

[gordon s]

Click on the V in the bottom right corner and then the normal four arrow sign once Vimeo opens.

[jonny777]

Cross London freight via Snow Hill finished at the end of the 60s. The GNR goods shed at Farringdon and the Midland goods shed at Whitecross Street having closed prior to then.

There is a photo of a BRCW Type 3 hauling a freight through Kings Cross, having popped out of Hotel Curve Tunnel, in Power of the Class 33's.

 

The LT workings of stock to and from the Northern and Metropolitan line came down form Neasden on the Met as far as Frarringdon where it reversed back up to Kings Cross on the Widen Lines. From there it went to Drayton Park via Finsbury Park. The return journey took the reverse route.

 

 

I'm sure that I remember reading in the depths of a Railway Observer, that the Cliffe-Uddingston cement train was routed via the Hotel Curve at least once in the early 1960s. I know RO is sometimes a little inaccurate with its reports, but I wonder if this was while the service was still using Presflos?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I'm sure that I remember reading in the depths of a Railway Observer, that the Cliffe-Uddingston cement train was routed via the Hotel Curve at least once in the early 1960s. I know RO is sometimes a little inaccurate with its reports, but I wonder if this was while the service was still using Presflos?

 

The photo I saw was of a Crompton on a train of mixed 4-wheel wagons; not a block train.

[decauville1126]

Click on the V in the bottom right corner and then the normal four arrow sign once Vimeo opens.

And once opened in Vimeo then very easy to save the video using KeepVid!

[simon b]

 

I get what you're saying Joseph, but take a look at this image (below). How can that not be included??? Probably one of the most atmospheric urban shots I've ever seen. For any model, even loosely based on Kings Cross,  to appeal to me, up and down would have to be included. Thinking outside of the box, maybe the answer is two small completely separate layouts?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/82097736@N00/8564849341/in/photostream/

 

 

Capturing that last image in model form would be difficult. The atmosphere is created by it being boxed in on every side. Not good for viewing!

 

 

Yes, I think the compromise would be to remove the back wall of the platform and possibly all or part of the canopy. You'd still have the gradient, the retaining wall, tunnel and passenger ramp. I'm not much of a one for exact copies of the prototype, always just going instead for the general feel of a location.

Just to give you some more to think about. A compressed but convincing model of hotel curve, along with platforms 14 and 15 can be done in 6ft x 14".....

[roythebus]

There are quite a few showing the transfer of LT stock via the widened lines, inc battery locomotives.

 

Tube stock was previously transferred to the NCL via Highgate Wood sidings , Highgate High level, direct to Finsbury Park then down to Drayton Park. When that closed stock transfers went via the Widened Lines. Certainly via the widened lines in my limited days in the Met in late 1973.

[Guest]

Just to give you some more to think about. A compressed but convincing model of hotel curve, along with platforms 14 and 15 can be done in 6ft x 14".....

 

I was away yesterday, so apologies for not replying sooner.

Using the map that Gordon linked to back in Post #130, I cropped and rotated it. I had a baseboard size of about 6ft x 18" in mind, so I wasn't far out! Yes, I certainly think it could be done, just taking a few liberties with platform length etc...

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

I was away yesterday, so apologies for not replying sooner.

Using the map that Gordon linked to back in Post #130, I cropped and rotated it. I had a baseboard size of about 6ft x 18" in mind, so I wasn't far out! Yes, I certainly think it could be done, just taking a few liberties with platform length etc...

 

cutout.jpg

 

If you rotate the box about 30ish degrees south east, that's an interesting possibility.

 

Mike.

[chris p bacon]

I was away yesterday, so apologies for not replying sooner.

Using the map that Gordon linked to back in Post #130, I cropped and rotated it. I had a baseboard size of about 6ft x 18" in mind, so I wasn't far out! Yes, I certainly think it could be done, just taking a few liberties with platform length etc...

 

cutout.jpg

 

See post No 70.

 

Looking seriously at the Passenger loco.