Kings Cross York Road & Suburban Platforms

[Joseph_Pestell]

 a toilet that was still lit by gas

 

Now there's an ecologically sustainable idea!

[Guest]

Can anyone tell me if these pictures from the NRM collection are of the suburban side at Kings Cross? Looking at the roof shape and supporting girders, they would seem to be?

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_DP_387

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_DP_386

 

The photos are titled "Kings Cross station, about 1930" but what's confusing me is they're part of a collection titled "Liverpool Street photos"...???

[Joseph_Pestell]

Can anyone tell me if these pictures from the NRM collection are of the suburban side at Kings Cross? Looking at the roof shape and supporting girders, they would seem to be?

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_DP_387

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_DP_386

 

The photos are titled "Kings Cross station, about 1930" but what's confusing me is they're part of a collection titled "Liverpool Street photos"...???

 

Certainly not Liverpool Street. But I am not convinced that they are Kings Cross either. The platform number and the style of roof girder would be right but various other things do not match, I think.

 

I can't think of any LNER station that would fit and I wonder if the presence of LNER adverts has misled the cataloguer. All the railway companies advertised on other companies' stations.

[Guest]

If you go forward 3 pictures using the "next" button, you come to this picture...

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_DS_105

 

titled "Kings Cross station, about 1958". This is definitely Kings Cross, as both departure boards advertise Finsbury Park as the first stop. The Platform 12 and Platform 13 signs are in the same style as the Platform 11 sign in the previous photo.

 

Edit: I was just getting a bit confused by the Platform numbering, which has changed over the years.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Pete 75C

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Pete

 

That is the concourse of what is today platforms 9, 10 and 11.

[Swindon 123]

Can anyone tell me if these pictures from the NRM collection are of the suburban side at Kings Cross? Looking at the roof shape and supporting girders, they would seem to be?

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_DP_387

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Liverpool%20Street&objid=1995-7233_LIVST_DP_386

 

The photos are titled "Kings Cross station, about 1930" but what's confusing me is they're part of a collection titled "Liverpool Street photos"...???

They certainly fit the bill for Kings Cross. During my time there, there was a roughly triangular area, partially open, between platforms 9&10 and platform 8 that formed the parcels area. It is the access road to there that can be seen through the arch in the first photo.The area is now the Fullers bar on the station, or at least the upstairs is, the downstairs seems to offices now. It could be a busy place, as all the newspapers and magazines came into there in a variety of vans from the various papers, it being very busy from late afternoon with vans vying for position to unload their newspapers among the crowds of commuters trying to get to Platforms 9&10. Wednesdays was the busiest day, with a small artic squeezing itself into the space to unload farmers weekly  for loading onto the 14.11 parcels for all the farmers in Yorkshire. I spent 5 weeks there awaiting a Traction Trainee course to start in May 1979. It certainly taught me the station and its environs, which stood me in good stead for when i started on the footplate. The name of the Fullers bar reflects the areas former use. See link. https://flic.kr/p/bEdYBz

 

 

Paul J.

[Nimbus]

The Liverpool Street connection may be that several regional functions seem to have been headquartered there, including the P.R.O. and associated photographic archive. Plenty of GN traffic activities have been recorded photographically by:

"Public Relations and Publicity Officer

British Railways - Eastern Region

General Offices

Liverpool Street Station EC2"

 

According to the label on the back of a print of 60025 passing Peplin's Wood, Brookmans Park on The Talisman on 17.9.56, which I recently bought.

 

The Nim.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Nimbus

[iands]

The Liverpool Street connection may be that several regional functions seem to have been headquartered there, including the P.R.O. and associated photographic archive. Plenty of GN traffic activities have been recorded photographically by:

"Public Relations and Publicity Officer

British Railways - Eastern Region

General Offices

Liverpool Street Station EC2"

 

According to the label on the back of a print of 60025 passing Peplin's Wood, Brookmans Park on The Talisman on 17.9.56, which I recently bought.

 

The Nim.

Certainly in BR Eastern Region days, the HQ was based in York but with an "outpost" based at Liverpool Street which effectively concentrated on all things on the old GE sections (now refered to as "Anglia"). Even the 4-Meg transmission system along the ECML routed from York actually went to Liverpool Street (Norton Folgate) rather than to Kings Cross. Essentially the Eastern Region had two HQs, one at York, the other at Liverpool Street (always abbreviated as LV.ST).

 

Regards, Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

Certainly in BR Eastern Region days, the HQ was based in York but with an "outpost" based at Liverpool Street which effectively concentrated on all things on the old GE sections (now refered to as "Anglia"). Even the 4-Meg transmission system along the ECML routed from York actually went to Liverpool Street (Norton Folgate) rather than to Kings Cross. Essentially the Eastern Region had two HQs, one at York, the other at Liverpool Street (always abbreviated as LV.ST).

 

Regards, Ian.

 

Eastern Region HQ was basically in London and the 'Lines' system split the operational management between the GN Lines, based at Kings Cross, and the GE Lines, based at Libverpool St.  The North Eastern Region HQ was at York.

 

The Eastern and North Eastern Regions were combined (one date I've seen says 1987 but I'm not sure about that) and for a time much of the management was divided over the two locations but eventually it was all moved to York (although I can't find a year for that thus far).  The Anglia Region was created in 1988 and took over much of what had once upon a time been the GE Lines area - it was headquartered at Liverpool St.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Working timetables today are still divided into (amonst others) Liverpool Street and York sections.

 

Fiennes gives the projected timeline for the ER / NER merger as:

 

Ministerial consent - Feb'66

Appoint management team - Apr'66

HQ set up at York - Jan'67

[Peter Kazmierczak]

A few more details.....

 

Bonavia in "The Organisation of BR" gives the following dates for the ER / NER amalgamation:

 

Dec '65 - BRB approve in principle ER / NER merger

Jan '66 - G Fiennes appointed GM of ER to plan and oversee the merger

 

Whilst ministerial consent was applied for as per Fiennes timeline above, it wasn't granted until Nov '66

 

Merger took effect from 1/1/1967 with HQ at York, though the Assistant GM of the combined region was still based at Liverpool St until his retirement in Oct '68.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Peter Kazmierczak

[Mike Storey]

Eastern Region HQ was basically in London and the 'Lines' system split the operational management between the GN Lines, based at Kings Cross, and the GE Lines, based at Libverpool St.  The North Eastern Region HQ was at York.

 

The Eastern and North Eastern Regions were combined (one date I've seen says 1987 but I'm not sure about that) and for a time much of the management was divided over the two locations but eventually it was all moved to York (although I can't find a year for that thus far).  The Anglia Region was created in 1988 and took over much of what had once upon a time been the GE Lines area - it was headquartered at Liverpool St.

 

The actual merger of NE and ER was, as stated by others, 1967. By the time of my arrival at Kings Cross (1987), the only ER vestiges left were the Architects and the Property people in the Eastern Offices (although by then they had become as much a BRB function rather than regional). Everything else was at York (or for Anglia, had moved to Norton Folgate). 

 

GN "Control" was supposedly a sub-set of York Control, but was actually run by the Kings Cross Area Manager, using ex-signalling staff from KX box. It was based in the Western Offices, just along the corridor from me on the first floor. The train crew offices were above them, until they moved to the Eastern side, in preparation for the KX redevelopment. Control was to move to the expanded box (but was not there before I left for InterCity HQ a few years later, having been recruited as the Area Passenger Manager originally at KX, but upon arrival, this had been changed to APM Network SouthEast, and then APM InterCity/Regional Railways AND NSE (when the occupant of the former had moved on) but I was still employed by BR ER! But the people from whom I took most of my instructions were pure Business Sector Route Director folk, the InterCity one based at York, a certain S.K. (Stuart) Baker (yes, the same one), and the other for NSE based at Liverpool Street (Trevor Hill).

 

By 1987, most of the platform buildings shown in preceding photos for platforms 12 to 17 had been demolished, but the large boundary walls had been retained and the first floor offices adjacent to Platform 11 had become the BR project office for the KX redevelopment.

[iands]

Eastern Region HQ was basically in London and the 'Lines' system split the operational management between the GN Lines, based at Kings Cross, and the GE Lines, based at Libverpool St.  The North Eastern Region HQ was at York.

 

The Eastern and North Eastern Regions were combined (one date I've seen says 1987 but I'm not sure about that) and for a time much of the management was divided over the two locations but eventually it was all moved to York (although I can't find a year for that thus far).  The Anglia Region was created in 1988 and took over much of what had once upon a time been the GE Lines area - it was headquartered at Liverpool St.

The BR Eastern Region HQ was certainly in York in 1973 when I joined the railway and, as I mentioned in previous post, an outpost of the HQ was based at LV.ST.

 

Regards, Ian.

[iands]

The actual merger of NE and ER was, as stated by others, 1967. By the time of my arrival at Kings Cross (1987), the only ER vestiges left were the Architects and the Property people in the Eastern Offices (although by then they had become as much a BRB function rather than regional). Everything else was at York (or for Anglia, had moved to Norton Folgate). 

 

GN "Control" was supposedly a sub-set of York Control, but was actually run by the Kings Cross Area Manager, using ex-signalling staff from KX box. It was based in the Western Offices, just along the corridor from me on the first floor. The train crew offices were above them, until they moved to the Eastern side, in preparation for the KX redevelopment. Control was to move to the expanded box (but was not there before I left for InterCity HQ a few years later, having been recruited as the Area Passenger Manager originally at KX, but upon arrival, this had been changed to APM Network SouthEast, and then APM InterCity/Regional Railways AND NSE (when the occupant of the former had moved on) but I was still employed by BR ER! But the people from whom I took most of my instructions were pure Business Sector Route Director folk, the InterCity one based at York, a certain S.K. (Stuart) Baker (yes, the same one), and the other for NSE based at Liverpool Street (Trevor Hill).

 

By 1987, most of the platform buildings shown in preceding photos for platforms 12 to 17 had been demolished, but the large boundary walls had been retained and the first floor offices adjacent to Platform 11 had become the BR project office for the KX redevelopment.

Ah, Mr Baker. He was with us in Railtrack RRNE from 1st April 1994.

 

Regards, Ian.

[Mike Storey]

Ah, Mr Baker. He was with us in Railtrack RRNE from 1st April 1994.

 

Regards, Ian.

 

I next came across him (other than at do's) at the DfT many years later, working on ....... HS2!

[don]

I was a cleaner, then passed cleaner and then a fireman at Hornsey in the early 60's so was used to the widened lines(only ever heard them referred to as "going down the hole") (the drain was the tube) and the associated yards and sidings,the sidings in the area behind platform 17 was always known as "the milk yard".

It was a very dodgy place at night,frequented by ladies of a certain profession and the client! and persons of no known abode,it was very dimly lit,you just did not go there after dark.

It was quite an experience to go down and up the hole for the first time,the bores were very tight and you did feel as if the cab would hit the roof or walls,i only ever did it on diesels,steam i would have thought could have been quite frightening,perish the thought of stalling on Hotel Curve!

I think the sight and sound of a BR Sulzer or a Paxman suddenly appearing at full throttle with a freight from below street level was always an attention grabber!

Passenger trains coming from Moorgate would try to pull up tight to the end of 17 as it seemed that the gradient was starting to ease off a loco length or two before that point so reducing the prospect of slipping,the BR Sulzers(class 24) were very sure footed  and the controller could  almost just be opened to the stop and would gently pull away, the Brushes(class31) i seemed to remember would trip out if the amps got too high (or was that just the Mirlees engined ones?)When fitted with the the EE engine they were fliers.

It is certainly very interesting to know what is below the ground,that westbound tunnel was a surprise to read about.

Looking at KX last year when visiting my daughter in London we met up for lunch by THE statue and wandered into the station for a look around,awful!

I will keep my memories ta. 

Don.

[TrevorP1]

I was a cleaner, then passed cleaner and then a fireman at Hornsey in the early 60's so was used to the widened lines(only ever heard them referred to as "going down the hole") (the drain was the tube) and the associated yards and sidings,the sidings in the area behind platform 17 was always known as "the milk yard".

It was a very dodgy place at night,frequented by ladies of a certain profession and the client! and persons of no known abode,it was very dimly lit,you just did not go there after dark.

It was quite an experience to go down and up the hole for the first time,the bores were very tight and you did feel as if the cab would hit the roof or walls,i only ever did it on diesels,steam i would have thought could have been quite frightening,perish the thought of stalling on Hotel Curve!

I think the sight and sound of a BR Sulzer or a Paxman suddenly appearing at full throttle with a freight from below street level was always an attention grabber!

Passenger trains coming from Moorgate would try to pull up tight to the end of 17 as it seemed that the gradient was starting to ease off a loco length or two before that point so reducing the prospect of slipping,the BR Sulzers(class 24) were very sure footed  and the controller could  almost just be opened to the stop and would gently pull away, the Brushes(class31) i seemed to remember would trip out if the amps got too high (or was that just the Mirlees engined ones?)When fitted with the the EE engine they were fliers.

It is certainly very interesting to know what is below the ground,that westbound tunnel was a surprise to read about.

Looking at KX last year when visiting my daughter in London we met up for lunch by THE statue and wandered into the station for a look around,awful!

I will keep my memories ta. 

Don.

 

 

Interesting to read that Don. I knew two men who were firemen in the area, Alan Bolton who was at Hornsey and Ralph Turner at Kings Cross. They were 'characters' in their later years so goodness knows what they were like as teenage firemen! Both referred to "going down the hole" and both had a great respect for the Hotel Curve on steam. As you suggest they had a fear, I use that word deliberately, of stalling on the Hotel Curve. Sadly both have gone to the depot in the sky but a night in the pub with either of them was an experience to be treasured. 

[Swindon 123]

I remember being spare one night/very early morning at KX and getting bored and restless (no card schools on the go), walking down the re-opened York Road tunnel, (it had been closed off as an access point for Thameslink Midland works during the early 80's), and walking down as far as the Thameslink station. I remember the Western link tunnel being there, and was open, although had been used as a dump for ballast and dirt scraped up from the floor of the York Road tunnel. I ventured down it as far as the mound of debris and do remember that there where indentations from sleepers laid in the tunnel, suggesting some track had been laid. Whether a train actually ever ran over them is a matter for conjecture or a time machine to verify. I only wish I had a flash for my camera at that time so I could have taken photos.

 

Paul J.

[Swindon 123]

I've just found these shots of platform 16 on Flickr. I don't know if they've been pointed out before, but the last one shows just how small the Hotel Curve tunnel looked.

 

https://flic.kr/p/iq7DLK

 

https://flic.kr/p/e3WB63

 

https://flic.kr/p/iq7U43

 

 

Paul J.

 

Edited to correct platform number after Clive Mortimore pointed it out I'd got the wrong one.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Swindon 123

[simon b]

I've just found these shots of platform 17 on Flickr. I don't know if they've been pointed out before, but the last one shows just how small the Hotel Curve tunnel looked.

 

https://flic.kr/p/iq7DLK

 

https://flic.kr/p/e3WB63

 

https://flic.kr/p/iq7U43

 

 

Paul J.

Those must be taken close to closure, that section of canopy was taken out in the last few years. Interesting that it shows the entrance doors to the buildings between hotel curve platform and platform 17, I would love to know the layout of those as they are on split levels.

Edited December 11, 2017 by simon b

[Guest]

A similar view of the Hotel Curve tunnel mouth to one posted by Clive a while back, but taken at a later date and more overgrown...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/15038/24045916492/

[Guest]

...Interesting that it shows the entrance doors to the buildings between hotel curve platform and platform 17, I would love to know the layout of those as they are on split levels.

 

I read somewhere that there was no way through to Platform 17 from what were just waiting rooms and storerooms on Platform 16 because, as you say, the platforms are (were) on different levels.

The image below shows the waiting rooms on Platform 16. Date and photographer unknown.

 

Unable to credit - date and photographer unknown.

[Clive Mortimore]

I've just found these shots of platform 17 on Flickr. I don't know if they've been pointed out before, but the last one shows just how small the Hotel Curve tunnel looked.

 

https://flic.kr/p/iq7DLK

 

https://flic.kr/p/e3WB63

 

https://flic.kr/p/iq7U43

 

 

Paul J.

Hi Paul

 

Are your sure you got your platform numbers right? The photos are of the platform from Hotel Curve which I always thought was number 16. Number 17 was the one that backed on to 16 and faced Milk Yard.

[Swindon 123]

Hi Paul

 

Are your sure you got your platform numbers right? The photos are of the platform from Hotel Curve which I always thought was number 16. Number 17 was the one that backed on to 16 and faced Milk Yard.

You are absolutely right Clive. I shall amend my post accordingly.

 

Paul J.

[simon b]

I read somewhere that there was no way through to Platform 17 from what were just waiting rooms and storerooms on Platform 16 because, as you say, the platforms are (were) on different levels.

The image below shows the waiting rooms on Platform 16. Date and photographer unknown.

 

GN01-00a-13.jpg

Unable to credit - date and photographer unknown.

 

That's what I cant work out, because there are 2 sets of doors on platform 17 in a similar area. These can be seen in Mikes pics in post 243. P17 must of had it's own set of waiting rooms ect alongside those of 16, but on a higher level.