Kings Cross York Road & Suburban Platforms

[Enterprisingwestern]

The roof ventilators came into the equation for widened line clearances too, I believe the acceptable ones were further out from the vehicle centre line.

 

Mike.

[Nearholmer]

Broad Street was terminus of the NLR, and was for a period the busiest station in London, because it 'hoovered up' commuters into the City from all over North and West London, including from the GNR routes. North London was 'prosperous commuter' territory in the latter part of C19th.

 

The GN services onto the widened lines gave another way into the City, which worked better for 'inner' rather than 'outer' commuters, but they also gave routes into South London, via Snow Hill.

 

The combination of better tramways grabbing inner suburban traffic, and the electrification of the Met & District, providing a viable alternative for west London commuters into the city, really massacred Broad Strett c1905, the traffic plummeted and never recovered. Similarly the opening of the Tube railways walloped the services via Snow Hill, which didn't revive for c70 years.

[Swindon 123]

The missing numbers were in the main low numbered and as it was renumbered more than once it can be confusing

 

Early 1900's. York Rd Arrival and Departure in main shed. PlatEDC loco yard Sub B hotel curve. Plat A

 

1940's YR 1,2,4,5,6,7,8,10 mainline. 11,12,13,14,15. 16 hotel curve,17

 

1970's pre clearing the throat. YR 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 mainline 9,10,11,12,13. 14 hotel curve,15. This is how I first remeber it

 

Post 1978 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 mainline. 9,10,11 suburban

 

And then more recently addition of P0

 

Sources: Paul Anderson and John Christopher's books on the station

 

Platform 11 didn't exist at Kings Cross, during my time there, (1979-84), the suburban side only had 9 & 10. See below.

 

46010, 46050, 46029 [A780-032 (HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

55016, 47406, 55022, 46029, 46050, 46010. [A780-033(HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

Apologies if my memory is all over the place, but the two stations were served by totally different lines.  Moorgate was north/south from Finsbury Park etc whereas Broad Street was served by the North London line that essentially went from West to East.  I'm guessing it would not have been possible to take them both into one terminus, but would be interested in hearing other views.

 

The North London Line was also electric whereas the GN was either steam or diesel, so that would have posed additional complications.

 

The GN, LNER & BR ran services into both Moorgate and Broad Street. Moorgate was accessed via the Widened Lines, (York Road & Hotel Curve), but also ran services to Broad Street via Finsbury Park, Canonbury Junction and Dalston Junction into Broad Street, and finished around the same time as the Widened Line services, when all services where concentrated at the Tube station via Drayton Park. See photos of some of the services via the links below. I suspect that capacity issues forced the GN to split its services between the two termini, and it remained that way until the electrification of the line resulted in a complete re-think on services

 

.https://flic.kr/p/qet4Lk

 

https://flic.kr/p/fqmtAG

 

https://flic.kr/p/dPKnyM

 

https://flic.kr/p/6bgJkg

 

 

Paul J.

[Nimbus]

The NLR and successor had running powers from Broad Street over the GNR. I don't know how far north they penetrated, but there is a photo of a NLR tank on a service with a "Potters Bar" destination board, and another broadside of a LMS Jinty crossing the Darkes Lane overbridge in Potters Bar. Presumably this traffic pattern was not questioned when Potters Bar was remodelled, as it had its turnback accommodation enhanced. I can recall "Broad Street" destination blinds on the side of Quad-Art guards' compartments in the mid-60s through Brookmans Park. Did a measure of rationalisation result in the ER taking over the Broad Street services that the LMR would have inherited? 

 

As to persisting with loco-hauled trains over the Widened Lines, the GN short underframe DMUs were low-density seating, and just couldn't shift the same number of passengers as a rake of 57-ft Mark 1s or Quad-Arts could.

 

The Nim.

[TomJ]

Going off topic for a moment I’ve heard it said that JK Rowling got it all wrong with platform 9 3/4. That she was actually thinking of Euston, which is where she regularly got the train to from Scotland. But she got confused when writing the first draft with Kings Cross, where 9 or 10 are not Mainline platforms!!!

Edited December 1, 2017 by TomJ

[Clive Mortimore]

To add to Nim's post after 1948 the ER took over the responsibility of providing the trains for the Broad Street services.

 

The use of 57ft stock both hauled and DMU was only confined to the GNR lines, it must have been the tunnels to and from the Cross because the LMR operated class 116 DMUs quite happily after they rid themselves of the Cravens 112s. The LMR hauled Mk1 non gangwayed stock was built with the ventilators set wider and lower, so called Metro Gauge. The ER stock was built with both normal Mk1 ventilator positions and Metro Gauge. Oddly most the ones with Metro Gauge vents were the outer suburban coaches with lavatories most of which didn't go down to Moorgate that often.  

 

As to Platform 9 at Kings Cross, pre the remodeling that took place in the 1940s there was a platform 3 and 9. Platforms 2 and 3 were half length and staggered, the same with 8 and 9. on the remodeling 3 and 9 disappeared until the renumbering about 1970.

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/at-kings-cross-london-pacific-type-locomotives-no-2795-call-news-photo/3134564?esource=SEO_GIS_CDN_Redirect#4th-august-1934-at-kings-cross-london-pacific-type-locomotives-no-picture-id3134564

The A1s are on platforms 8 and 10, the line down the middle is number 9. Note the 4 way point in front of Call Boy.

 

Edit. The class 112 and 116 DMUs had their vents set in normal position, so why the hauled stock was different i don't know.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[Clive Mortimore]

Platform 11 didn't exist at Kings Cross, during my time there, (1979-84), the suburban side only had 9 & 10. See below.

 

46010, 46050, 46029 [A780-032 (HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

55016, 47406, 55022, 46029, 46050, 46010. [A780-033(HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

 

The GN, LNER & BR ran services into both Moorgate and Broad Street. Moorgate was accessed via the Widened Lines, (York Road & Hotel Curve), but also ran services to Broad Street via Finsbury Park, Canonbury Junction and Dalston Junction into Broad Street, and finished around the same time as the Widened Line services, when all services where concentrated at the Tube station via Drayton Park. See photos of some of the services via the links below. I suspect that capacity issues forced the GN to split its services between the two termini, and it remained that way until the electrification of the line resulted in a complete re-think on services

 

.https://flic.kr/p/qet4Lk

 

https://flic.kr/p/fqmtAG

 

https://flic.kr/p/dPKnyM

 

https://flic.kr/p/6bgJkg

 

 

Paul J.

Hi Paul

 

When the electric services started old platform 13 ( 1970 number 11)  was removed. Only to be reinstated later.

[gordon s]

Thanks guys for putting me straight. Now I think about it I can recall N2's and Quads with Broad Street destination boards. I'm fInding this thread fascinating with all the changes that went on at the Cross after the late 50's.

 

Platform 1 was also used as a parcels platform, as I recall seeing barrows piled high with parcels at the York Road end. One day I thought I'd won the lottery. As kid's we used to collect train tickets and one of the barrows had a package of used tickets from Worksop that had split open and there were 100's of used tickets all over the barrow. Needless to say they were hoovered up into my duffle bag for a big swap session at school. What surprised me was all these piles of tickets were just wrapped in newspaper.

 

I had no idea where Worksop was other than 'oop north.....

 

Happy days!

[roythebus]

I never tire of that video.

 

I simply cannot believe I once got off at York Road, the only time I ever visited, completely oblivious to where that railway ended up and missed out on a fascinating opportunity.

 

My head was full of Deltics at the time.

 

As for H&S, they had that, not really fair to suggest otherwise, they had one of these.

 

https://samtoddphoto.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/train-grave-yard-010312-122-copy.jpg

 

By all accounts a measure that worked highly effectively.

 

Yes, usually modified the read do Not Clean soot Off window.

[roythebus]

This is pure speculation, but the Cravens were only 9'2" wide, whereas most other 57' DMUs were 9'3". 

 

Now I don't know if that one inch was critical in the tunnels, but it was just a thought as to why they were used and (say) 57' Met Camms were not. 

 

The Cravens were fitted with trip cocks, the MetCams weren't. simple.

 

In my time at KX, 1976-78, I 2nd manned DMUs into Moorgate and Broad Street, and loco hauled into Moorgate. I can only remember one loco-hauled train into Broad Street which at that time was a PITA as they had to provide a 2nd loco to release the train engine and take the empty stock out. By then there was only enough stock to make 9 loco-hauled sets with a few spare coaches, though there always seemed to be a lot more! There were few spare DMUs at that time.

 

Mk1 C1 stock was banned from the KX curves as were various loco classes which i think has been covered earlier in this thread.

Edited December 1, 2017 by roythebus

[APOLLO]

Interesting video

 

 

Brit15

[TheSignalEngineer]

Going off topic for a moment I’ve heard it said that JK Rowling got it all wrong with platform 9 3/4. That she was actually thinking of Euston, which is where she regularly got the train to from Scotland. But she got confused when writing the first draft with Kings Cross, where 9 or 10 are not Mainline platforms!!!

 Drift warning.

She wouldn't have got off at Platform 9 at Euston coming from Scotland unless the wires were down at Wembley, it's one of the short DC Lines platform. Perhaps she got confused because it's only 3/4 of the length of the main line platforms.

[D854_Tiger]

Broad Street was terminus of the NLR, and was for a period the busiest station in London, because it 'hoovered up' commuters into the City from all over North and West London, including from the GNR routes. North London was 'prosperous commuter' territory in the latter part of C19th.

 

I remember reading somewhere that at one time the LNWR even ran a morning express into Broad Street from Wolverhampton and return in the evening, a dining car express, now that's what I call commuting.

[Guest]

I remember reading somewhere that at one time the LNWR even ran a morning express into Broad Street from Wolverhampton and return in the evening, a dining car express, now that's what I call commuting.

 

By strange coincidence, I read the same thing earlier today, link below. I had also read that this morning and evening service would, for a fee, provide the services of a typist and the link mentions a "typewriting compartment". The Victorian/Edwardian equivalent of WIFI, I guess!

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Carriages/gallery.php?filenum=526

[bennyboy]

Platform 11 didn't exist at Kings Cross, during my time there, (1979-84), the suburban side only had 9 & 10. See below.

 

46010, 46050, 46029 [A780-032 (HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

55016, 47406, 55022, 46029, 46050, 46010. [A780-033(HR)] by Paul James, on Flickr

 

 

The GN, LNER & BR ran services into both Moorgate and Broad Street. Moorgate was accessed via the Widened Lines, (York Road & Hotel Curve), but also ran services to Broad Street via Finsbury Park, Canonbury Junction and Dalston Junction into Broad Street, and finished around the same time as the Widened Line services, when all services where concentrated at the Tube station via Drayton Park. See photos of some of the services via the links below. I suspect that capacity issues forced the GN to split its services between the two termini, and it remained that way until the electrification of the line resulted in a complete re-think on services

 

.https://flic.kr/p/qet4Lk

 

https://flic.kr/p/fqmtAG

 

https://flic.kr/p/dPKnyM

 

https://flic.kr/p/6bgJkg

 

 

Paul J.

 

Was Platform 10 regularly used for stabling locos or was that just a one off? I have noticed that when it still existed, that the suburban platform 13 often had a loco stabled on it.

Edited December 1, 2017 by bennyboy

[chris p bacon]

That would have been a one off. Most spotting days in London ended by catching a Cravens bog cart from the suburban, the most you would see was possibly a 31 depending on how full the fuelling point was.

[Swindon 123]

Was Platform 10 regularly used for stabling locos or was that just a one off? I have noticed that when it still existed, that the suburban platform 13 often had a loco stabled on it.

It was a one off. Kings Cross loco was closed by the date of the photos, and engineering work (it was a Sunday) prevented locos going to Finsbury Park and coming off shed that evening. As there was only limited stabling provision at KX, platform 10 was used to stable locos that would be required for that evenings train as it didn't see many, if any suburban services on a Sunday. Locos could still be fueled at Ferm Park if required. 

 

Paul J.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I remember reading somewhere that at one time the LNWR even ran a morning express into Broad Street from Wolverhampton and return in the evening, a dining car express, now that's what I call commuting.

 

The City to City Express.

 

Wolves 0750

BNS  0820

Coventry 0843

Broad St 1035

 

Broad St 1725

Coventry 1917

BNS 1940

Wolves 2005

[pb_devon]

Interesting video

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZiTRd8dT6A

 

Brit15

When I started work in the city in 1966, I regularly saw a banker (08 or similar) in the short siding north of Farringdon, as seen in this video. Thanks for posting this gem.

[roythebus]

When I started work in the city in 1966, I regularly saw a banker (08 or similar) in the short siding north of Farringdon, as seen in this video. Thanks for posting this gem.

 

The banker was to help goods trains up Snow Hill to Holborn and sometimes up the Hotel Curve if the stalled on there. Manned by Hornsey drivers according to the FB 34A staff group.

[Guest]

Thinking of the possibilities of Kings Cross suburban workings in model form, Class 31 with Bachmann Mk1 suburbans and a Cravens DMU spring to mind (obviously). Forgive the ignorance, but were the loco-hauled trains through York Road and back up through Hotel Curve a Mon-Fri rush hour feature only?

[Swindon 123]

The eclectic platform numbering at Kings Cross can be seen in the plan (below) of the 1933 resignalling scheme.

 

KX resignalling. Track plan. by Paul James, on Flickr

 

Paul J.

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Thinking of the possibilities of Kings Cross suburban workings in model form, Class 31 with Bachmann Mk1 suburbans and a Cravens DMU spring to mind (obviously). Forgive the ignorance, but were the loco-hauled trains through York Road and back up through Hotel Curve a Mon-Fri rush hour feature only?

 

Were there some Saturday lunchtime workings too? Many worked Saturday mornings in those days.

[Guest]

Whilst searching for Class 31 stock formations, a few Flickr shots of York Road that I hadn't seen before...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/23700069@N03/16288605877/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/6973719761/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/sirbrianrobertson/6254459267/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/7920299524/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/71592768@N08/8220127565/

 

And a shot of a Class 31 at KX showing an unusual livery variation. Actually, not so much of a livery variation, more of a "make do and mend"...

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mrc31176/4470560835/

[Nearholmer]

What an excellent crop!