Peco Bullhead Points: in the flesh

[RBAGE]

For those interested, I spoke to the chap on the Peco stand at York about ETA for the new diamond and slips. He said most of the design work is well underway, but that they were currently looking at November/December 2018 for release.

Can we be confident that the geometry and size of the bullhead diamond will be the same as the current HO offering?

If I build a formation with what is available now, will I be able to simply lift and replace when the bullhead diamond is available?

[hayfield]

Can we be confident that the geometry and size of the bullhead diamond will be the same as the current HO offering?

If I build a formation with what is available now, will I be able to simply lift and replace when the bullhead diamond is available?

 

 

I think that is the plan, keeping the geometry the same as the flatbottom code 75 track

[alfsboy]

Can we be confident that the geometry and size of the bullhead diamond will be the same as the current HO offering?

If I build a formation with what is available now, will I be able to simply lift and replace when the bullhead diamond is available?

This is my cunning plan too though with medium rad switches.

[martin_wynne]

Can we be confident that the geometry and size of the bullhead diamond will be the same as the current HO offering?

If I build a formation with what is available now, will I be able to simply lift and replace when the bullhead diamond is available?

 

Peco are saying yes:

 

 

[Guest Anders63]

Okey folks!

My turnouts and the flex tracks did finally arrived!

However i was disappointed to see how the wheel touch both rail before the frog.

Peco did isolated rail before the frog but it´s to narrow between rail so the wheel touch both of it.

This make short circuit!!

When you use digital system they are sensible for easy touch.

So how to solve the problem?

I have to cut contact between outer rail from the tounge and polarize tounge too with the frog at the same time by use tortoise motor which do have 2 pole switchable contact.

I´m really disappointed Peco! 

Your old track system code 75 do have more safety isolated rail before the frog so why didn´t you do the same way with the Bullhead turnouts?

I´m pretty sure customer will do have more trouble shooting with the double turnout too.

 

[Zunnan]

I must admit, with an 0-4-0 like the Hornby Peckett slowly waddling through on DC, I've had the occasional short. Another 1mm of clearance would be ideal but the tradeoff with these unifrogs would be a much longer dead section. I'd have preferred a proper live frog personally, but if this is the way they deem it best for whatever reason then these are what we will get. When I get around to it I'll be looking at converting the 3 I have on Hill Top to live frog, though two are glued down so that will probably be a pain in the backside now!

 

Its not a new problem either, years ago I ended up stripping out a few insulfrog code 55 long crossings and replacing them with electrofrogs because almost everything shorted out on them thanks to a gradient change through the crossings. I also had the same problem of momentary shorts with setrack curved turnouts using DCC when I put in permanent links between the stock and switch rails, with the lights off it was like watching 3rd rail arcing its way along, especially with Lima wheelsets!

[JSModels]

I'm running a choice of 2 Bachmann 1f's on my shunting puzzle, and I've never had either of them short out on either point. Maybe I've just been lucky...

[Pete the Elaner]

Okey folks!

My turnouts and the flex tracks did finally arrived!

However i was disappointed to see how the wheel touch both rail before the frog.

Peco did isolated rail before the frog but it´s to narrow between rail so the wheel touch both of it.

This make short circuit!!

When you use digital system they are sensible for easy touch.

So how to solve the problem?

I have to cut contact between outer rail from the tounge and polarize tounge too with the frog at the same time by use tortoise motor which do have 2 pole switchable contact.

I´m really disappointed Peco! 

Your old track system code 75 do have more safety isolated rail before the frog so why didn´t you do the same way with the Bullhead turnouts?

I´m pretty sure customer will do have more trouble shooting with the double turnout too.

It sounds like your wheels are too coarse to use with new, fine track. I'm sorry but the solutions are to use coarse track with your coarse wheels or replace the wheels to use on your new, finer track.

 

As for why didn't Peco stick to Electrofrogs?

Making a happy medium Unifrog will be cheaper than making both Insulfrog & Electrofrog. Models have moved on until most people who want the new finer track will already be running their stock on finer, compatible wheels, so Unifrog has now become a possibility.

The few who still want to run older, incompatible models can still use code 100.

 

If they did not move forward in this way, we would still be using code 150 track to cope with models from the 1930s. There may be some who would prefer it if this was the case, but many are happy it is not.

[Guest Anders63]

It sounds like your wheels are too coarse to use with new, fine track. I'm sorry but the solutions are to use coarse track with your coarse wheels or replace the wheels to use on your new, finer track.

 

As for why didn't Peco stick to Electrofrogs?

Making a happy medium Unifrog will be cheaper than making both Insulfrog & Electrofrog. Models have moved on until most people who want the new finer track will already be running their stock on finer, compatible wheels, so Unifrog has now become a possibility.

The few who still want to run older, incompatible models can still use code 100.

 

If they did not move forward in this way, we would still be using code 150 track to cope with models from the 1930s. There may be some who would prefer it if this was the case, but many are happy it is not.

 

Too coarse wheels!??

Nope...it´s NEM wheels and fits for the code 75.

Or are you telling to me that i must change wheels to the fine scale wheels?

Are you telling to me that english models at the scale 1:76 do have fine scale wheels?

The real fault with the Bullhead is that isolated are too close to the frog.

[Gilbert]

I've run a range of locos on my newly laid Peco track with no problems - I'm using NCE DCC and Bachmann and Hornby diesels - I will do some testing in the next few days  with other locos including some US stock and see what occurs.

Personally so far I am delighted with the unifrog for DCC - two wires attacjhed to one siding and the whole 5-6m of track plus 4 points was "live" - the Peco fishplates seem to conduct the dcc supply well - once they are on of course..which can be challenging.

Chris

[Guest Anders63]

I did checked closer with extra strong magnifying glass.

I founded out it´s very closed and it was so hard to see in normal way.

I believe there was close about 0,5 mm!! 

[Dominion]

Anders, I too was worried that it looked so close in the images before launch. I have a couple to test but they are not installed yet.

Are you saying you are worried they will short in the future or that they actually have shorted when you are running stock over them in running conditions ? Regards, Tom

[RBAGE]

I have just carried out a few dimensional checks and there is indeed a risk of short.

From a sample of 3 locos.

Measuring the back to back of recent Bachmann diesels varies from about 14.3mm to 14.6mm.

The loco wheel thickness is consistently 2.8mm.

With the best case of 14.3mm back to back, the wheel inner to opposite wheel outer is therefore 17.1mm.

At 17.1mm there is still a minor overlap with a risk of short.

Whether the wheel coning will eliminate any risk is not clear.

Bob

[steve45]

Anders,  - just wire them up like an electrofrog and gap the vee at the end of the point, or even further away from the vee if you run DCC. Use the switch on your tortoise motor to switch the frog. This was discussed further back in the thread.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Anders,  - just wire them up like an electrofrog and gap the vee at the end of the point, or even further away from the vee if you run DCC. Use the switch on your tortoise motor to switch the frog. This was discussed further back in the thread.

 

But surely the whole point of Unifrog is that they should be easy to use - especially for DCC?

 

As soon as photos of early engineering samples were shown, many people raised this likely issue of shorts. The USA Code 83 range has been out for years and does not seem to have this problem but US wheels are somewhat finer than ours - and have been for a long time.

[Chamby]

Too coarse wheels!??

Nope...it´s NEM wheels and fits for the code 75.

Or are you telling to me that i must change wheels to the fine scale wheels?

Are you telling to me that english models at the scale 1:76 do have fine scale wheels?

The real fault with the Bullhead is that isolated are too close to the frog.

Hi Anders, I shared the same concerns as you as early as post #2 on this thread. BUT My layout now has ten of these points installed and, even though the isolation joints look too close, they do work OK in practice. Like you, I would prefer the rail breaks to be in the same place as the electrofrog points... but they do work.

 

I would however add two conditions to ensure that you don’t have any problems with these points:

 

Firstly make sure that your wheels have the correct back-to-back measurements. They don’t need to be finescale but they do need to have the correct back-to-back, so that the check-rails can do their job properly and prevent shorting problems across the insulating gap.

 

Secondly, you may encounter shorting problems if you modify the point geometry by bending it, either to make a curved turnout or a Y. Even a gentle curve can change the alignment enough to realise the problems that you anticipate. I have installed one point with a gentle curve and whilst it works fine for most loco’s, there are two that regularly short here. So I now run them on the other line. But if you use the turnout as built by Peco without modification, you should be fine.

 

I am very happy to continue using these turnouts, they do look so much better than the older product when laid and ballasted.

 

Phil

[RFS]

Current code 75 Electrofrog double slips have a similar problem where the rails at the tips of the internal diamond are very close together. I encountered intermittent DCC shorts with an early Hornby Bulleid pacific (34067 Tangmere) which had Hornby's then 14.2mm back-to-back wheel measurement. Carefully adjusting this to 14.5mm on all wheels - drivers, pony and tender wheels cured the problem.  No other locos were affected as they all appeared to have the 14.5mm gauge.

 

So if my locos can handle this slip successfully, I'm assuming they'll be fine with the bullhead points.

[coachmann]

I was going to use the new bull head points and slightly curve them to transfer some of the sharp curve to the straight section, but having read the above remarks about the possibility of shorting on DCC, I am having further thoughts. It is such a darn shame that nothing is straightforward. As for the continuing production of 2ft radius bullhead double slips and the like, so much for more realistic looking track....

Edited April 5, 2018 by coachmann

[Gilbert]

As promised - some running tests. I have a small shunting layout under construction.

 

 

I have just run the following locos using an NCE Powerhouse - all have DCC sound either factory or home fitted. I had no trouble with any of them.

 

Heljan Hymek

Sutton 24

Bachmann 37

Hornby 08

Athearn SD39 RTR

Atlas MP15 DC Gold

 

Edited April 5, 2018 by Gilbert

[Oldddudders]

But surely the whole point of Unifrog is that they should be easy to use - especially for DCC?

 

As soon as photos of early engineering samples were shown, many people raised this likely issue of shorts. The USA Code 83 range has been out for years and does not seem to have this problem but US wheels are somewhat finer than ours - and have been for a long time.

Not entirely true, as many of us using DCC with Peco Code 83 points and US-market locos and stock have found a coating of nail-varnish on the affected area, renewed periodically, is needed to avoid all shorts. I prefer clear varnish - others’ colour preferences may vary.

[martin_wynne]

I was going to use the new bull head points and slightly curve them to transfer some of the sharp curve to the straight section, but having read the above remarks about the possibility of shorting on DCC, I am having further thoughts. It is such a darn shame that nothing is straightforward.

 

Hi Larry,

 

A thin smear of Araldite (or other epoxy) on the inside faces of the rail head should solve the problem. No need to put it on the top of the rail because it is the back of the wheels shorting. Keep it thin to avoid affecting running:

 

 

Martin.

[gr.king]

Before anybody loses sight of the fact, it is still possible to build a model railway without the assistance / liability of ultra-sensitive-to-short-circuits DCC you know.

 

If the unifrog bodge at the crossing is that much of an electrical problem it isn't going to be a major challenge to human skill and ingenuity to cut a couple of new gaps in the rails and re-arrange the bonding to create a conventional electrofrog point with a long, electrically safe crossing. Even with such a chore of modification these "out of the box" points will be a lot quicker and easier to use than home built items detailed to a similar degree.

[Gilbert]

As a satisfied customer of Peco I must say that I have had none of the problems mentioned in previous posts with the new BH track with the test running on my new plank. 

[Fat Controller]

Not entirely true, as many of us using DCC with Peco Code 83 points and US-market locos and stock have found a coating of nail-varnish on the affected area, renewed periodically, is needed to avoid all shorts. I prefer clear varnish - others’ colour preferences may vary.

If white varnish (or Tippex) was used, it would look almost prototypical...

[Guest Anders63]

I enclose my pictures so you can see more better details.

One of the pictures you see Peco code 75 at the bottom and Bullhead at top.