Basic wiring - where to start?

[NittenDormer]

Gah! I've tried reading through the other electric threads, but they only made me more confused. I've just about got the hang of woodworking basics, so now it is time to move on the the next challenge, and a new selection of known and unknown unknowns.

 

My layout is around 18 feet long, in a garage.  It has (will have) 9 separatable boards.  It consists of a double track that, including fiddle yard, goes from one end to t'other 4 times - running length maybe 30 metres. OO gauge. You can see a track plan at the start of my 'Knadgerhill' thread.

 

I am not thinking about the (few) points yet, merely getting power to the track. I plan to solder to each piece of track, once I have the wire. And the track. And the soldering iron.

 

Questions...

 

1) What size of equipment wire is needed for a layout of this size? I understand 16/0.2-type references, what sort of amps requirement do I need?

 

2) It is basically a long, double track loop, so I am planning on using 4 colours of wire, one for the positive and one for negative on each track. Is it as simple as I clearly think?

 

3) Do I need to use a different thickness of wire for the 'droppers'? 

 

4) I am thinking that, for simplicity, the wire should simply follow the track bed around, even though this will mean a longer route for it. Is this sensible? Is this what is meant by a 'bus'? Or would it be easier to wire as connections running direct from the control panel to each individual baseboard?

 

Any suggestions regarding pitfalls I haven't even thought of yet would also be welcome.

 

Thanks all.

 

[newbryford]

I would never use anything smaller than 16/0.2 for layout wiring.

 

Do you need a full "bus" or are you splitting it into sections? For a common return, you might think about 32/0.2 if you have a few locos running at the same time

 

Don't be afraid to put in more insulated joiners than you "think" you need. Far easier to connect up a couple of wires, rather than cut an extra gap if needed.

 

If you haven't got a multimeter, invest in one with a continuity feature (or make your own with a buzzer and battery).. Test as you go along. Don't leave it until after the last wire is installed.

 

How are your soldering skills?

Key things are an iron with plenty of power and a smallish chisel bit. Clean the iron and joint before and use a good quality solder/flux combination.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Dagworth]

That this thread is on the NON DCC board raises concerns, are you DCC or not? Non DCC wiring is totally different with no place for bus wiring at all.

 

Andi

[jcm@gwr]

That this thread is on the NON DCC board raises concerns, are you DCC or not? Non DCC wiring is totally different with no place for bus wiring at all.

 

Andi

 

Just because DCC uses the term 'bus', does not exclude

it from being used in other electrical 'non-DCC' situations.*

 

I would have used that word to describe the heavier cable

that runs around the layout, from/to which you can attach

droppers, as it reduces the voltage drop, and can reduce

the over-complicated mass of wires underneath.

 

*eg I don't believe that telephone exchanges are DCC,

and Underground tunnels have 'buses' running through

them as well!

[Dagworth]

Just because DCC uses the term 'bus', does not exclude

it from being used in other electrical 'non-DCC' situations.*

 

I would have used that word to describe the heavier cable

that runs around the layout, from/to which you can attach

droppers, as it reduces the voltage drop, and can reduce

the over-complicated mass of wires underneath.

 

*eg I don't believe that telephone exchanges are DCC,

and Underground tunnels have 'buses' running through

them as well!

Why do you have to confuse a topic? Bus wiring in model railways (nearly) always refers to DCC. An analogue layout is not likely to have buses. The OP has said that electrical topics have got him confused, you are not exactly helping...

 

Andi

[jcm@gwr]

Why do you have to confuse a topic? Bus wiring in model railways (nearly) always refers to DCC. An analogue layout is not likely to have buses. The OP has said that electrical topics have got him confused, you are not exactly helping...

 

Andi

 

The OP asked about 'buses', this was reasonably answered/

replied to in post 2, I would suggest that you started confusing 

the issue, by bringing DCC into the equation!

[DCB]

Whether it is DC or DCC is in some ways fundemental, but even to a DC diehard like myself it is simple pragmatism to make a new layout DCC compatible.

 

You can use code 75 or 100  rails to distribute DC over quite long distances, well over 20 feet.  You can't use code 75 or code 100 or any other 00 rails to distribute DCC (unless you use sections and 1 amp overload cut outs) which means DCC becomes simple to plan but tedious to wire 

 

The big issue is that DC is generally a lot less powerful than DCC.  DC generally about 12 va DCC 4 times that.  00  Fishplates can't handle 4 amps, I have seen them glow red on 2 amps, so for DCC compatibility you either need bus bars and droppers as per conventional and hideously tedious DCC or sections as per conventional DC with 1 amp overload cut outs for each section.to protect your fishplates and points from overloads from excess load as opposed to short circuit protection.  

 

Today I would run a "Section" wire to the section and additional feeds to rails at intervals of around 5 railjoiners or every 5 yards with a 1 amp thermal cut out on every section.  Your track plan lends itself to DCC as there is not much else for trains to do but follow each other but storage loops, spirals and top station would ideally be 4 separate sections. For DC I would use rotary switches 1 per section to select any of up to 5 controllers plus a few extra places you can isolate locos within  sections. I use Maplin double pole 6 way rotary switches nowadays having used 3 pole 4 way and needed more ways.  They are no good for DCC unless you have additional overload protection, though this may prevent fully lighted trains operating.

 

I use one colour for left rail and another for the right rail , brown and pink, another pair of colours so up and down line are different might be handy but I don't bother.   The number of boards mentioned suggests the layout is portable?  If not I suggest just using wiring connector strips but if it is to be portable that suggests quick detach wiring connectors which are bad news.  .  Something big and fat like a 7 pin trailer socket and plug would be ideal for DCC, if you can keep the max amperage down buy using DC or individual overload protection for each section then DIN plugs can suffice

 

Looking at your track plan I would say you have unnecessary crossovers in your storage loops and nowhere near enough storage loops.

 

What you don't have is any way to reverse trains. my unfinished loft layout had an ability for any train to depart any storage road from left to right and go either clockwise or anticlockwise around the layout

Edited November 20, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[kevinlms]

'Great' advice so far people, to someone who is already confused.

 

So far we have (no particular order).

 

Your proposed wire is too thin.

 

Are you DDC or not?

 

Do you need 'a bus' or not?

 

You can use the rails for power for at least 20 ft.

 

DCC is hideously tedious.

 

DCC is 4 times more powerful than DC

 

Your rail joiners will glow red.

 

You need thermal cut outs set for 1 Amp

 

Your track plan is unworkable.

 

You need a multimeter.

 

Soldering iron purchase & hints for soldering.

 

 

Some of the advice is useful and correct, other stuff is misleading at best.

 

Surely we, collectively, can do better than that? The idea isn't to put people off, the great hobby of model railways.

 

 

For my offering, I suggest to have a look at Brian Lambert's page here and ask questions for specific help.

 

http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Electrical.html#Basics

 

 

[Junctionmad]

could I make an observation 

 

There is little difference between DCC and DC in terms of wiring droppers . I personally  have a friend with a big  layout 20 by 12 , two levels , and all he did to convert to DCC was turn on ll his section switches, no droppers , no busses etc . he runs it on a NCE DCC system 

 

You need droppers in DC just as much as DCC,as the reality is fishplates are bad news for carrying current , hence any section of track joined by a fishplates should ideally have a dropper. DC or DCC 

 

for 00 gauge 7/0.2 wiring is adequate for short droppers to a more substantial " dropper bus" , but Ive seen whole DC layouts done in 7/0.2 , its good for about 1.5 amps over short distances ( 1-3 feet ) in my opinion 16/0.2 is much better but I personally find it obtrusive to wire to the track 

 

so to directly answer your questions 

 

 

 

What size of equipment wire is needed for a layout of this size? I understand 16/0.2-type references

16/0.2 is good , you can set down to 7/0.2 for short lengths close to the track connections 

 

 

 

 

2) It is basically a long, double track loop, so I am planning on using 4 colours of wire, one for the positive and one for negative on each track. Is it as simple as I clearly think?

at 18 feet long , you might need to run 16/0.2 until closer to the rail connection or if you are taking several 7/0.2 feeds from a single section feed 

But  its not as simple as that , as you will have to think what sections you want powered up , do you want  sections of track that have the points switched away from them , still remain powered up in certain cases , or are you happy to allow all the power to be " steered " by the points , if so then yes so can wire it with 4 wires !!!

 

 

 

3) Do I need to use a different thickness of wire for the 'droppers'? 

because this layout is long , you need to connect the simple four wires !, to the track in serval places to avoid voltage drop, use 16/0.2 and take dropper feeds in 7/0.2

 

 

 

 

4) I am thinking that, for simplicity, the wire should simply follow the track bed around, even though this will mean a longer route for it. Is this sensible? Is this what is meant by a 'bus'? Or would it be easier to wire as connections running direct from the control panel to each individual baseboard?

not really needed to precisely follow the track . 

 

 

 

Is this what is meant by a 'bus'

you can have DC busses, DCC busses and London Busses , yes a DC bus carries power from a section switch to the track it switches, if theres mor then one dropper per section switch , you can call in a DC bus , or a DC power bus, though the term isnt that common 

 

 

 

Any suggestions regarding pitfalls I haven't even thought of yet would also be welcome.

Theres a lot of track and little running flexibility, and nothing approaching a real railway layout, perhaps you need to sketch out what you want to run first 

[NittenDormer]

Thanks all for the contributions, just to be clear I am non-DCC. The track plan intention is more for watching trains go by than interesting operability. The points in the fiddle yard are simply a means of getting the right track spacing, they will not be present in reality. I haven't actually thought of sectioning the track (yet), although it would make sense to have different trains on different parts of the same circuit. Please only argue with me on my threads.

[Pete the Elaner]

although it would make sense to have different trains on different parts of the same circuit.

It sounds like you may want to split the circuits up into different sections then?

[JCrompton]

I think he only solution would be for someone knowledgeable enough and understanding of NittenDormer's situation to visit and demonstrate how it's done. A forum would be largely ineffective as such as what is in front of you on a screen might not translate to answer specific queries, as is asking at a show as most don't have specific wiring demonstrations or layouts that are done properly instead of adequately.

 

When wiring my layout I asked for help at a local model shop, who put me in touch with someone at a local club who was only too happy to assist.

[DCB]

It looks like two prototypical sections in each direction as in one each side of the station could work well.   Trying to sequence trains to follow each other around a layout is horribly complicated and expensive.   

 

I would not get too hung up on 50mm track spacing, for storage loops as long as the trains clear each other the closer the better.

 

I am working on lengthening an 8ft hidden siding module to 10ft to take 8 coach rakes and it fits 6 roads into 12" quite nicely.   Point control is bydiode matrix with a 6 way rotary switch to select the road and a separate operating button.

 

See Pics

[ejstubbs]

This might help as a starting point.

 

OK, I'm not being entirely serious (and apologies to the OP if it came across as a bit mean) but I am actually only half joking.  After all, it's got ten 5-star reviews, and the one other review is 4 stars     I learned a lot of basic stuff about electrical circuits, solenoids and the like with the help of that book.  Switches made out of drawing pins and paper clips, isn't it, hmm?  Jumpers for goalposts.  Rush goalie. Two at the back, three in the middle, four up front, one's gone home for his tea. Beans on toast? No, a lemon, and two terminals cannibalised from an old dry battery.  Matron, my tongue hurts and my tummy feels funny.  Yummy yummy yummy.  Ohio Express, 1968.  Marvellous.

 

To put it another way: I think we sometimes need to consider that not everyone has even that level of basic understanding of how electricity works*.

 

* Of course, anyone who's worked on old cars knows that it actually works by smoke.  So long as the smoke stays inside the wires and other stuff it's OK.  You can tell when things have stopped working because you can see the smoke leaking out.

[14Steve14]

Gah! I've tried reading through the other electric threads, but they only made me more confused. I've just about got the hang of woodworking basics, so now it is time to move on the the next challenge, and a new selection of known and unknown unknowns.

 

My layout is around 18 feet long, in a garage.  It has (will have) 9 separatable boards.  It consists of a double track that, including fiddle yard, goes from one end to t'other 4 times - running length maybe 30 metres. OO gauge. You can see a track plan at the start of my 'Knadgerhill' thread.

 

I am not thinking about the (few) points yet, merely getting power to the track. I plan to solder to each piece of track, once I have the wire. And the track. And the soldering iron.

 

Questions...

 

1) What size of equipment wire is needed for a layout of this size? I understand 16/0.2-type references, what sort of amps requirement do I need?

 

2) It is basically a long, double track loop, so I am planning on using 4 colours of wire, one for the positive and one for negative on each track. Is it as simple as I clearly think?

 

3) Do I need to use a different thickness of wire for the 'droppers'? 

 

4) I am thinking that, for simplicity, the wire should simply follow the track bed around, even though this will mean a longer route for it. Is this sensible? Is this what is meant by a 'bus'? Or would it be easier to wire as connections running direct from the control panel to each individual baseboard?

 

Any suggestions regarding pitfalls I haven't even thought of yet would also be welcome.

 

Thanks all.

 

 

Forget about bus's and dropper wires. You are DC and they make things more complicated.

 

With DC you only apply power to the rails when its needed. So if you want a loco to move you need to add power to the track that its standing on. This means that if you dont want a loco to move you have to isolate the track that its standing on. You can isolate tracks by cutting one rail and running a wire from either side of the cut back to the control panel and a switch.You can also isolate the tracks using the points. So give a bit of thought about what you really want. Power can be passed through fishplates easily with DC and you will hardly ever get any power problems so no need to power each length of track.

 

Its a lot harder to get two locos moving on the same piece of track in DC, although not impossible. Generally you would have one moving on an up line and one on a down line. So you therefore need two controllers, one up and one down. You need to isolate any tracks where the two circuits join or cross t prevent power from one controller moving the wrong locomotive.

 

16/0.2 wire can be used for all power feed wires and 7/0.2 can be used for isolating section switch wiring if you want to save a bit of cash. You will need more wire than you think as every power feed needs to be attached to a controller or a common block. All switch isolating wires need to come back to the control panel.

 

There is a very good book by a great writer here all about model railway DC wiring. Its easy to read and easy to understand. https://www.amazon.co.uk/PSL-Book-Model-Railway-Wiring/dp/1852601736 There may be others out there from different places.