OO gauge Crowdfunded APT-P (Warley announcement)

[JSpencer]

I think the first paragraph is ok, it underlines the fact that this is potentially a risky project, and that the buyers assume the risk of the project, particularly if there are problems anywhere en route.

 

The first part is only stated here and knowledge to those who read it here today. It does not seem to have been expressed when signing up and nor "agreed" (you click a button saying I understand the risks etc) as a set of T &Cs to those signing up. You cannot assume everyone knows how crowd funding works. I almost certainly don,t but can imagine any manufacturer saying in court "well we did advise the T&Cs on a forum" is not going to stop a court from instructing them to pay the money back.

 

Even with a set of signed T&Cs, I suspect there are laws guiding this and you almost certainly will need to prove where the money went in case of failure. These are almost certainly there just to make sure those criminally minded understand they cannot easily scam people.

[JSpencer]

I don’t doubt the whole project could fail, I hope it doesn’t I’ve put my name down to it. However let’s be practical and there is a risk with anything, I am prepared to risk £250 as an initial payment, if the project failed due to numbers or other reasons in its early stages that would be lost but if it proceeded to the next stage - great another £250 in the pot and so on. What I’m trying to say is I think project failure would be less likely as time went on and let’s face it the fourth payment would be made on some tangible engineering prototypes etc. So I doubt anyone in the worst scenario would loose 100%.

The CAD work and research is not 1/4 of the price (unless tooling and EPs cost peanuts), there would be a good chunk to hand back at that stage. But it would be awkward to say £100 now, £400 stage 2!

What could happen is the safety margin is swallowed up towards the end and they need an extra £100 or £200 to finish it. Here there are still choices though just be being up front. Most people would rather pay the extra to have the final model than walk away with nothing!

Edited April 5, 2018 by JSpencer

[delticfan]

To be honest I can’t be bothered with all this, just paid my 248.99 if I lose it it’s my problem.

[royaloak]

Thanks J Spencer. No doubt cast on the integrity of DJM at all. Just pointing out the fall out rate on such a high price item can be expected to be larger than normal. It’s not just the price, I marvel at people having space for a 14 car one .

I am still working on that bit. 

 

I didnt think you were casting doubt although, with hindsight, I can see why you thought I was,sorry about that.

Edited April 5, 2018 by royaloak

[BR(S)]

I have total faith in Dave to deliver and understand fully the risks of crowdfunding, so have just made my first payment. 

[Gulliver]

Dave, I am actually right in the middle of typing you a rather long email and this heightens these concerns.

 

Woah, woah, woah. Please check Kernow's project page http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/158/DJ-Models-Class-74-Project-Page which is quite clear on T&Cs:

 

 

When you place your order for one of the five exclusive models below, you will be charged in full as soon as you place the order.  Your funds are secure with Kernow Model Rail Centre and will be kept in a dedicated account.  Kernow Model Rail Centre will release the funds required to further the project as each milestone in development is reached.

Milestones include, laser scanning, cad/cam development, 1st EP tooling and 2nd EP tooling.

In the unlikely event that the project does not proceed then all monies will be refunded in full.  You can also cancel at any time, without penalty, and receive a full refund, right up until the model is sent to you. 

 

 

 

I don't think the T&Cs are clear at all.

 

What is the definition of "proceed" regarding a full refund?  Some may read it as a completed model being delivered, but it can also be read as being that the model has "proceeded" as soon as the first of the milestones has been reached, and hence the first of the money has been released to DJM.

 

How can you cancel and get a full refund if one or more milestones have been reached and part of your payment has been used to pay for those milestones?

 

I suspect someone at Kernow has copy/pasted these T&C's from their commissioned models (where Kernow does take the risk) and applied them to the Class 74 (where the assumption is as a crowd funded project it is the purchasers who are taking the financial risk and not Kernow).  Clarification from Kernow might be a good idea, if for no other reason than to make sure they really do mean to be as responsible as the T&C's can be read to mean.

 

In what way are these terms not clear?  While you have chosen to quibble over the word "proceed" you have totally failed to take account of the next line

You can also cancel at any time, without penalty, and receive a full refund, right up until the model is sent to you. 

 

​​Nothing to doubt about there, and your totally unfounded suggestion that a reputable retailer with a long established track record as copy/pasted these terms from their commissioned models is nonsense.

 

I have not yet actually placed an order for an APT but have been thinking about it, but I too have similar worries as adb968008.  I had also not realised that if I ordered through DTOS my details would be passed to a different company for invoicing, and I find it worrying that in response to the questions adb as asked we will have to wait until Monday for clarification?  Surely a project of this magnitude these contractual details should already have been sorted?

 

I also have a Class 74 on order and it has been a considerable time since I paid with virtually no updates in the two plus years since I paid in full for this.  I have no concerns over this as I am confident that my money is safe and I would like similar reassurance for the APT before placing an order. 

[sandwich station]

Dave, I don't think this has been asked before but apologies if it has. What sort of estimated timeframe have you put on this model to be completed in, now that work has begun so to speak?

[dogbox321]

Find the issue of e-mail hacking "strange" - all someone would need to do is use anyone's e-mail address that they know of, plus an address, which in theory could be real, or fake.  Likewise, after ordering there is an e-mail from DTOS, thanking you for your expression of interest, so anyone making allegations that their e-mail had been hacked should have had a e-mail prior to the one asking for payment....  Of course Dave has got to follow due protocol, regards any potential fraud, and has been honest with everyone regarding the situation.

 

With regards the Numbers pulling out, then I would expect there is going to be a "small margin" within the numbers, after all, Mick has run a model shop and I am sure he has come across those who order, and then don't cough up!  Plus people have got until the 30th of April, to pay, so some may wait until payday, others until their is room on their credit card etc..  Likewise regarding safety of money in crowdfunding ventures, then for anyone worried it may be advisable for them to look into the possible protection advantages of making payments with their credit card could offer them, and decide upon the most appropriate means of payment for them.  Likewise, perhaps Dave/DTOS could provide some some T's and C's regarding the crowdfunding - i.e. money safe guarded in a separate account (as per Class 71/74), deposits non-refundable etc..

 

Personally, looking forward to receiving mine.  With regards 14 Cars, then quite possibly very few modellers will be able to run this formation, but as a model:  It is a "one-off", forms a complete train, has two motors, and works out very good value in relation to the other APT models, Bachmann's Pullman and Hornby's Class 800,  then I think it pretty much answers why this is the most popular.  Plus, if worst comes to worst, in a few years time, you have a ready source of spares with the other coaches, and if you really don't want the full length you could try and flog a coach or two on a well known internet auction site.

 

Regards,

 

C.

[DJM Dave]

Dave, I don't think this has been asked before but apologies if it has. What sort of estimated timeframe have you put on this model to be completed in, now that work has begun so to speak?

Hi,

As you all know the preliminary design ideas have been looked at, and I’ve sent China a few wild and wacky thoughts, and they in turn, have sent their to me to have a look at.

 

However, the fun really starts in June 2nd at the scanning day at Crewe.

 

Because of the length of train the bogies and yes the roof, the scanningis th e most expensive I’ve ever done.

The laser scanning will be done there, then there is the black arts of making it useable, checking for possible errors and corrections, which is done back at their base.

 

They seem to think a month for this process to get a correct / corrected and finished 3D useable file to send to China.

China have told me they will start within 2 weeks on this but it could take up to 2 months, with any revisions done after that taking about a month.

 

Tooling will then come next, and I would think will take 2 months because of the amount of tools and tooling required. Then there the test and assembly process, in which I will be in the factory to oversee it.

 

If this goes smoothly I hope to see pre production models October this year. I’ll get the deco artwork completed during this stage, so that they can use 1st ep bodies to paint and get it right so as to save the prices of usually waiting for 2nd ep models to do this too.

 

Going back into tooling, it should take another 6-8 weeks then final testing for a month or so, checking for any week points we may have missed along the way. Then 6-7 weeks of production and a month on the high seas, plus 3 weeks wiggle room for transit to and from docks and shipping out to crowdfunders.

 

So that’s the timeline, however, there’s always the chance of a slip here and there and I’ve not been in the business this long and not realised that it probably will be a longer process, as it tends to never be quicker.

 

Part of all this will be keeping you all informed when something happens, why it’s happened and how it affects the timeline.

Pictures and video will be shown where possible of the tooling and testing, and as usual deco samples will go on the stand at shows, and be sent out the magazines for photography for their news sections.

 

Please note this is a DJM crowdfunding project and DJM will be invoicing, designing, and finally supplying the finished model and is therefore totally responsible for your investment.

Also: Please Note: Any 'pure' crowdfunding venture is an investment with no guarantee of return, and your invested capital (deposit payments) are at risk. Please consider carefully whether you wish to partake in this venture before ordering.

I hope this helps, if only a bit.

Cheers

Dave

[Pete the Elaner]

In what way are these terms not clear?  While you have chosen to quibble over the word "proceed" you have totally failed to take account of the next line

You can also cancel at any time, without penalty, and receive a full refund, right up until the model is sent to you. 

 

​​Nothing to doubt about there, and your totally unfounded suggestion that a reputable retailer with a long established track record as copy/pasted these terms from their commissioned models is nonsense.

 

I have not yet actually placed an order for an APT but have been thinking about it, but I too have similar worries as adb968008.  I had also not realised that if I ordered through DTOS my details would be passed to a different company for invoicing, and I find it worrying that in response to the questions adb as asked we will have to wait until Monday for clarification?  Surely a project of this magnitude these contractual details should already have been sorted?

 

I also have a Class 74 on order and it has been a considerable time since I paid with virtually no updates in the two plus years since I paid in full for this.  I have no concerns over this as I am confident that my money is safe and I would like similar reassurance for the APT before placing an order. 

Please consider who is running this.

It is not a well established business with a £billion turnover who can afford to employ solicitors to check every word on a contract & front half a million in advance for tooling a model which may not sell very well.

It is an enthusiast who probably started by making models for himself then realised that others were prepared to pay in money rather than time for the same things.

Providing services or products via unusual methods is the way some small businesses survive & grow.

 

I suppose it is a bit of a leap of faith, but probably more for Dave than anyone else. He has got many happy customers from previous projects & has the experience to move this forward in order to make it work.

[JSpencer]

I have not yet actually placed an order for an APT but have been thinking about it, but I too have similar worries as adb968008.  I had also not realised that if I ordered through DTOS my details would be passed to a different company for invoicing, r. 

 

You are protected by EU law here.

 

The Collector (DoS) can only pass on personal details to the processor (DJM) for sole purpose that the data is intended to be used for. The Processor must do nothing else with that data. For example DJM cannot take those e-mails and send you a news flash to propose other products that he is developing. To get DJM news, you need to set up such a feed with DJM directly.

Likewise the Collector can only e-mail you news of other products IF you specified that you wanted to see news of other products by purposely ticking a box.

Anyone braking the law gets a 4% fine based on the company's turnover.

 

This law applies to EU citizens anywhere in the world and any citizen in the EU. You are an EU citizen until Britian has fully left, but doubtless the UK may decide to keep that law anyway.

 

I don't think for a second that either DJM or DoS would use your data other than for the APT though.

Edited April 6, 2018 by JSpencer

[JSpencer]

I have total faith in Dave to deliver and understand fully the risks of crowdfunding, so have just made my first payment. 

 

I have total faith too but respect that many people signing on are not aware of the crowdfunding conditions and they have the right to know before they had over money. Of course we are all confident DJM will suceed but like any marriage, a contract should be written in case of divorce. Phrases like "... while every endevour will be made to produce the model at the cost stated, there may be factors out of control that could cause us to change the price or even cancel the project with the possible loss of all money invested so far. In case of cancellation, we will return any money which had not been invested at the moment of cancellation...." and so on, so everyone knows where they stand.

 

For example: DJM has no control over VAT. He - nor anyone else - does not how the Trump China trade war will play out and so on. Both factors which could affect the project.

 

Dave has said in other threads that money for project A is just for project A and I suppose there rules/laws that money for crowdfunding needs to be kept apart from DJMs/DoS day to day business so that if anyone fails the project does not (or vice versa).

Edited April 6, 2018 by JSpencer

[37081LochLong]

Well i've just paid the first payment for my two models no matter what!

[NJC92]

Chalk up another first installment paid.

[mdvle]

In what way are these terms not clear?  While you have chosen to quibble over the word "proceed" you have totally failed to take account of the next line

You can also cancel at any time, without penalty, and receive a full refund, right up until the model is sent to you. 

 

​​Nothing to doubt about there, and your totally unfounded suggestion that a reputable retailer with a long established track record as copy/pasted these terms from their commissioned models is nonsense.

 

I suggest you take a step back and consider what was said, and what the terms on the Class 74 order page indicate.

 

As you so brilliantly highlight, based on the terms Kernow is taking on the entire financial risk of the Class 74 once it starts unless there is a further legal contract between DJM and Kernow taking care of any risks Kernow has assumed through the T&C.

 

While I have confidence in Dave following through if the model proceeds, if anything interrupts it then from the customers perspective it is Kernow who are financially responsible regardless of how much money Kernow may have paid out for the respective milestones.

 

Trade war causes the Chinese factory to go under and the assets all disappear into the night and everyone who ordered the Class 74 can simply cancel their order and get a full refund despite the fact that Kernow and DJM may well have already paid the factory 75% of the collected money and thus have no way to restart the model.

 

Or maybe a fireworks factory next door to the factory explodes, taking the factory with it.

 

Or any other number of admittedly highly unlikely things can happen leaving Kernow on the hook.

 

Despite supposedly being a crowd funded model the terms on the order page merely make this a regular model that only goes ahead if there are sufficient fully paid pre-orders. If that is Kernow's intention, then great for them taking the position in supporting the project.  But it is then not a normal crowd funded model because the crowd is not taking any financial risk.

 

Edit - the short version is this.  Most of the terms provided on the Kernow Class 74 order page are nonsense.  If you can get a full refund at any time up to delivery, then all the talk about separate accounts, payments at milestones, etc. means absolutely nothing.  They only have meaning if the customer is taking part of the risk, which the above highlighted sentence indicates isn't happening.

Edited April 6, 2018 by mdvle

[timward55]

Hi Dave

 

Have all the invoices been sent out?

 

If so, I will need to contact you directly as I have not received mine.

 

Thanks

 

Tim

[sandwich station]

I hope this helps, if only a bit.

Cheers

Dave

About a year from now, if I worked it out right then?

[Chris Chewter]

Same here about the lack of invoice. Been checking my inbox and junk mail but nothing as yet.  DToS have confirmed that I have placed an order, but no invoice received.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Captainalbino

[DJM Dave]

Hi,

 

Yes all invoices up to yesterday’s orders have been sent out.

If you have not received either an invoice or an invitation to the scanning party at Crewe, then please mail me directly at the following e mail address..... info@djmodels.co.uk

 

Thanks

Dave

[DJM Dave]

About a year from now, if I worked it out right then?

I would like before then to be honest, but i think that’s a fair assumption.

[reevesthecat]

I have found Dave's timeline estimates to be optimistic at best so I wouldn't hold your breath but I would rather Dave took his time and got it right rather than rush things and there are probably 101 variables which can slow a project down!

 

However if I am proved wrong I will be very happy.

Cheers

Mark

 

Also will working on this project slow down the other projects further?

Edited April 7, 2018 by reevesthecat

[DJM Dave]

I have found Dave's timeline estimates to be optimistic at best so I wouldn't hold your breath but I would rather Dave took his time and got it right rather than rush things and there are probably 101 variables which can slow a project down!

 

However if I am proved wrong I will be very happy.

Cheers

Mark

 

Also will working on this project slow down the other projects further?

 

Hi mate,

thanks for the post.

 

Understand about the timeline, and agree. But the best thing here is total visibility of all stages, in posts , pictures and videos here and on my web site.

 

There are indeed 101 variable in bringing a model to market.

 

Cheers

Dave

[sandwich station]

I have found Dave's timeline estimates to be optimistic at best so I wouldn't hold your breath

But it gives myself and others an insight into what Dave has planned. Obviously there could be many variables and I'm not going to hold him to it.

[Legend]

In fairness when it comes to Chinese Manufacturing , I think most companies are in the same boat when it comes to timelines . Hornby , Bachmann, Kernow etc

[ac1874]

I am keen to get on board with this but need to get some bills out of the way first. Is it confirmed that orders will remain open until the end of this month regardless of the final milestone being reached?