Standardisation of colours for model railways

[davetheroad]

And the actual width between the bearing cups/length of the axle to the pinpoints; a very small variation will make a big difference between 'tight', 'loose and floppy', and 'just right'.

 

And a deeper mystery is why do the coaches have less rolling resistance in one direction rather than the other? A large majority of Bachies and Hornby's that I have tested (30 coaches) exhibit this.

 

Another mystery is why do Hornby RR Mk1 plastic wheels have the least rolling resistance?

 

apologies for going off topic

[davetheroad]

Cynical me again. The reason there is no colour standardisation is the large manufacturers don't believe they would gain any commercial advantage from it!

 

a small scale niche manufacturer might want to colour match a product to a big manufacturer as it would make selling easy.

[Pint of Adnams]

Cynical me again. The reason there is no colour standardisation is the large manufacturers don't believe they would gain any commercial advantage from it!

 

a small scale niche manufacturer might want to colour match a product to a big manufacturer as it would make selling easy.

Getting the thread back on the original topic, there is everything for the larger manufacturers to gain.

 

First modellers would be able to better 'mix and match' similar product lines from different manufacturers - the livery differences between the Bachmann and Hornby Pullmans was sufficiently obvious to deter those interested from buying both whilst the ability to close the gaps in the Mk1 coach ranges is tempered by colour variations (amongst other minor differences).

 

Second and perhaps more important, strict adherence to clear colour/livery specifications would ensure that the same manufacturer's products, made in different factories for whatever reason (bankruptcy, closure, spreading risk, relocation to a new country), would also be consistent.

 

Third the point about niche manufacturers being able to match is well-made - be it complete models, for paint-matching and transfers and lettering to aid those who wish to improve their models or change their identity.

[coachmann]

All the proprietary RTR companies have been producing ultra scale model locomotives and rolling stock for over a decade now. But when scant regard is paid to colour, they wreck the whole job at the final hurdle.  Seeing as it cannot cost any more to get things right as wrong, added value is an easy achievement!  Maybe buyers would be more forgiving of inevitable price increases brought about by external factors.

Edited December 4, 2017 by coachmann

[coachmann]

Maybe you can tell us why the Bachmann EWS looks like dried blood and the real one looks like........red....

Just put fox transfers on a Bachmann EWS and notice the variation in red.

 

Is this the supposed scaling of colour I’ve heard of ?

I cannot answer for Bachmann. I was commissioned to make three presentation sets with locos in LoadHaul, Mainline and Transrail liveries with one being presented to Ed Burkhart.  I threw in a Class 47 finished in LMS crimson lake with a yellowish-cream band running along the side and finishing at the cab doors plus a fluorescent strip along the bottom of the body side.  This scheme became the EW&S livery. EW&S probably used the paint they were using on thier USA railroad. 

Edited December 4, 2017 by coachmann

[Miss Prism]

More grubby greasy greens at Worcester:

http://www.miac.org.uk/images/50547022.jpg

[Oldddudders]

And on the WR, the carriage washing plants took the paint off like t cut...

 

Carriage washers in BR days typically used a product called Exmover, which was delivered in sacks to the plant. The operator would tip a sack or sacks into his mixing tank according to the prescribed strength. But once freezing conditions arrived, the risk of ice left on slam-door coach running boards and door handles meant washing simply stopped. Thus there might be days or even weeks when coaches got dirtier and dirtier - particularly on SR electrified lines where de-icing fluid was being thrown up from the conductor rail.

 

Come the thaw, there was a big push to get the fleet clean again, and it was by no means uncommon for the well-meaning washer operator to increase the strength of the mix, to help that process. That cannot have helped the longevity of the paint finish.

 

Worse, in extreme cases, an alternative substance called Wundagunge would be applied by hand - well, long-handled brushes, really - and this was known to remove more muck more quickly, but again potentially to the detriment of the paint. 

 

Given the somewhat random frequency of these operations on different vehicles, is it any wonder that the depth of colour was reduced as time went by - but not uniformly?

[coachmann]

Maroon coaches with a matt finish can be seen on many of  B&R Video's Western Region and Cambrian line productions. I didn't see it on the London midland until until end of steam. Many of the matt finish ex LMS Staniers had no lining either, so maybe it was a cheapo paint.

 

The worst I saw had nothing to do with the above though. It was purely down to age and the fact that the LNWR M52 push & pull carriage had not been repainted since before the war when it was withdrawn in 1955. There must have been as much bare wood on view as there was flaking paint. Try emulating that on a model! That said, the very last BR Mk.i's I photographed in maroon circa 1972 were dead matt with paint worn down to metal below each window.

[Dunsignalling]

Maroon coaches with a matt finish can be seen on many of  B&R Video's Western Region and Cambrian line productions. I didn't see it on the London midland until until end of steam. Many of the matt finish ex LMS Staniers had no lining either, so maybe it was a cheapo paint.

 

 

Cheap paint or the cessation of varnishing, perhaps? It definitely did cease though I can't quote a date.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

So how do you explain the  "colour" variation in the single images where the stock/loco's are illuminated by the same colour temperature and intensity light?

 

I suppose you'll be telling me next that this variation in Maroon is down to film aging & human foibles of colour perception.   

 

CamBnk-MaroonsSm.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you acknowledge there is a difference then.

 

P

There's got to be a fundamental difference there even allowing for the liberal accumulation of dirt on the 50-footer.

 

John

Edited December 4, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[sp1]

Slightly off topic, but some years ago I wanted a particular car paint colour to spray a guitar. I tried Halfords, who at the time advertised being able to supply any car colour. Lady answers: ‘oh yes, we have colours for any car, which model is it?’

Me: 1958 Ford Thunderbird.

Lady: oh, err...., no, we don’t do that one.....

(Shadows fans might guess which colour I’m alluding to - Fender used ‘custom’ colours from the car workshop next door at the time, and that particular colour was only used during 1958).

I tried a local company (I think, having looked recently that they have various branches), Jawel Paints. I was told that if I had a sample they could match it, and they proudly boasted that they had produced paint for Pete Waterman ‘for his trains’ !!!

Problem was I had neither a 1958 Ford Thunderbird or Hank Marvins guitar.....

But, if anyone has a paint sample they wish to match it might be worth a try?

[Steven B]

Do this mean that the Severn Valley Railway got one of these Mk1s from Bachmann and the other from Hornby?

 

 

I wonder if the wish of many to have matching colours across different manufactures is more about having something nice to look at rather than modelling what actually happened? Just like most trains you see at exhibitions will be of matching liveries, i.e. all crimson & cream or all maroon with no mixed rakes.

 

 

Steven B.

[Miss Prism]

Problem was I had neither a 1958 Ford Thunderbird or Hank Marvins guitar.....

 

If you had, you probably would have been able to own your own paint company...

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

One of the most notable colour effects on BR was the degradation of the blue panel on blue and grey coaches. The way that the blue became vertically streaked after some time in service was very striking, with areas under glazing more 'washed out' than those with the grey above. I suspect this was an artefact of the washing process; whatever, it looked very downmarket.

 

I have seen some very good models of BR blue diesels with significantly degraded paint over the years, but rarely that much effort on coaches.

 

 

And a deeper mystery is why do the coaches have less rolling resistance in one direction rather than the other? A large majority of Bachies and Hornby's that I have tested (30 coaches) exhibit this...

 Why not open a topic in 'Modelling questions, etc' if you want this discussed? Rolling resistance is not manufacturer specific, so better in the general modelling area.  I can propose some reasons and solutions, but don't want to contaminate the paintwork...

[Pint of Adnams]

Do this mean that the Severn Valley Railway got one of these Mk1s from Bachmann and the other from Hornby?

 

SVRMk1-2003.JPG

 

I wonder if the wish of many to have matching colours across different manufactures is more about having something nice to look at rather than modelling what actually happened? Just like most trains you see at exhibitions will be of matching liveries, i.e. all crimson & cream or all maroon with no mixed rakes.

 

 

Steven B.

No, just that the one on the left has been left out in the sun too long whilst that on the right is fresh from the paint shop. Brighter reds (and that livery is BR Crimson Lake with Cream) are notoriously prone to fading; her indoors' red Vauxhall Astra eventually faded to pale orange on the bonnet and roof. However both coach and car started out in the proper colour.

[dibber25]

I cannot answer for Bachmann. I was commissioned to make three presentation sets with locos in LoadHaul, Mainline and Transrail liveries with one being presented to Ed Burkhart.  I threw in a Class 47 finished in LMS crimson lake with a yellowish-cream band running along the side and finishing at the cab doors plus a fluorescent strip along the bottom of the body side.  This scheme became the EW&S livery. EW&S probably used the paint they were using on thier USA railroad. 

 

The original EWS livery was a straight copy of the owning company's livery - Wisconsin Central - using the same layout and colours as used in the USA, but with the new 'three beasties' logo devised by a RAIL magazine reader. Even the font was initially the same in both countries. Wisconsin Central later used the same livery but with a 'zig-zag' yellow stripe which also appeared on some EWS locos. (CJL)

Edited December 4, 2017 by dibber25

[Bernard Lamb]

All the proprietary RTR companies have been producing ultra scale model locomotives and rolling stock for over a decade now. But when scant regard is paid to colour, they wreck the whole job at the final hurdle.  Seeing as it cannot cost any more to get things right as wrong, added value is an easy achievement!  Maybe buyers would be more forgiving of inevitable price increases brought about by external factors.

I can't accept your comment on cost Coach.

When I was involved in painting using a base cost of 1p for the cheapest unit cost, a mid grey as it happens, most common colours would have been around 3p with some going up to 7p.

Granted the area and thus the volume is quite small in the case of models but it still has to be costed into the job and as Dibber pointed out working to a limited colour range is an added complication. Add in minimum amount that can be ordered and the smaller production runs it is not as easy as it might at first appear.

Bernard

[coachmann]

The original EWS livery was a straight copy of the owning company's livery - Wisconsin Central - using the same layout and colours as used in the USA, but with the new 'three beasties' logo devised by a RAIL magazine reader. Even the font was initially the same in both countries. Wisconsin Central later used the same livery but with a 'zig-zag' yellow stripe which also appeared on some EWS locos. (CJL)

The UK version was NOT a straight copy of Wisconsin Central.  Wisconsin Central ran a stripe the full length of their diesel locomotives with a sort of christmas tree 'warning panel' on the front end. A stripe cutting across recessed doors on British locos was a complication so I did the 47 on speck with a shortened stripe and added it to the presentation sets. I was told Ed Burkhart 'had had fun with the loco'. The full size locos came out with a stripe just between the doors as per the model.  I had no idea what form the insignia would take at the time and put on Wisconsin Central lettering.

 

 

I can't accept your comment on cost Coach.

When I was involved in painting using a base cost of 1p for the cheapest unit cost, a mid grey as it happens, most common colours would have been around 3p with some going up to 7p.

Granted the area and thus the volume is quite small in the case of models but it still has to be costed into the job and as Dibber pointed out working to a limited colour range is an added complication. Add in minimum amount that can be ordered and the smaller production runs it is not as easy as it might at first appear.

Bernard

In practice, Hornby received assistance with crimson lake and applied the result to their latest Duchesses.  Whether it cost the company more was not my business.

Edited December 4, 2017 by coachmann

[57xx]

 Why not open a topic in 'Modelling questions, etc' if you want this discussed? Rolling resistance is not manufacturer specific, so better in the general modelling area.  

 

Nor is paint accuracy between manufacturers, but this thread is in the Hornby product section...

[New Haven Neil]

Maroon coaches with a matt finish can be seen on many of  B&R Video's Western Region and Cambrian line productions. I didn't see it on the London midland until until end of steam. Many of the matt finish ex LMS Staniers had no lining either, so maybe it was a cheapo paint.

 

The worst I saw had nothing to do with the above though. It was purely down to age and the fact that the LNWR M52 push & pull carriage had not been repainted since before the war when it was withdrawn in 1955. There must have been as much bare wood on view as there was flaking paint. Try emulating that on a model! That said, the very last BR Mk.i's I photographed in maroon circa 1972 were dead matt with paint worn down to metal below each window.

 

The last maroon MK1 I saw at Newcastle Central in about 72/73 ish, had a crinkled finish like a 50's radio.  It was like a jigsaw puzzle, but it wasn't actually flaking, a very odd effect indeed.  It also had the roundel - funny how clear a memory it is but I can'tt recall the year!  It also looked VERY dark, like that LM brake in the shot above away.

[dibber25]

The UK version was NOT a straight copy of Wisconsin Central.  Wisconsin Central ran a stripe the full length of their diesel locomotives with a sort of christmas tree 'warning panel' on the front end. A stripe cutting across recessed doors on British locos was a complication so I did the 47 on speck with a shortened stripe and added it to the presentation sets. I was told Ed Burkhart 'had had fun with the loco'. The full size locos came out with a stripe just between the doors as per the model.  I had no idea what form the insignia would take at the time and put on Wisconsin Central lettering.

 

 

In practice, Hornby received assistance with crimson lake and applied the result to their latest Duchesses.  Whether it cost the company more was not my business.

 

I should have said, with the exception of the statutory British yellow warning panel in place of the chevrons, it was as close a copy as you could get on a British diesel shape. On the Class 66 (from a quick look at photos) it appears that some had the yellow stripe across the doors and others did not, but in all cases the stripe stopped short of the area where the logo was located.  (CJL)

[coachmann]

Dibber25, as with all the Diesels I painted for Rail, they gave a 3-dimensional indication of how things would look on the real thing.  One of the commissions (via Rail magazine) was for Regional Railways who wanted to see if an existing Sprinter livery would fit on a 153. I seem to recall your name was mentioned along with my good friend Brian Brown, and I wondered if you rebuilt the 153 using Westward castings? Or have I got it all the wrong way round? The outcome was positive for the 153's.  Some commissions were to give Rail a lead on a breaking story so they could say to readers, "You saw it here first".  

Edited December 5, 2017 by coachmann

[dibber25]

Dibber25, as with all the Diesels I painted for Rail, they gave a 3-dimensional indication of how things would look on the real thing.  One of the commissions (via Rail magazine) was for Regional Railways who wanted to see if an existing Sprinter livery would fit on a 153. I seem to recall your name was mentioned along with my good friend Brian Brown, and I wondered if you rebuilt the 153 using Westward castings? Or have I got it all the wrong way round? The outcome was positive for the 153's.  Some commissions were to give Rail a lead on a breaking story so they could say to readers, "You saw it here first".  

 

I actually did a set of my own castings to turn the (then) Dapol 155 into a pair of 153s, one powered and one dummy. Brian used to sell my bits and pieces so it may well have come via him. Soon after I joined EMAP in 1992 RAIL got into doing 'virtual' livery changes by putting revised liveries onto photos in what we'd now call Photoshop, so I'm not sure I ever saw one of your repaints in the flesh. I still recall the picture you sent me of your GWR150 HST in chocolate and cream. It was the best 'livery that never was' and I still can't understand why the new GWR didn't use chocolate and cream. I'm sure it would look good with a 'modernized' layout and graphics. The new green looks very classy on a bright day but very drab in our grey British winter. (CJL)

[TheSignalEngineer]

The last maroon MK1 I saw at Newcastle Central in about 72/73 ish, had a crinkled finish like a 50's radio.  It was like a jigsaw puzzle, but it wasn't actually flaking, a very odd effect indeed.  It also had the roundel - funny how clear a memory it is but I can'tt recall the year!  It also looked VERY dark, like that LM brake in the shot above away.

 

There's one in the background an old photo of mine at Tyseley in 1972. It's coupled to a Blue/grey coach so may have still been in use, possibly in the 'Footex' set. It looked as if it was left in one of the Western Region's Exmover machines overnight with the brushes running.