Standardisation of colours for model railways

[andyman7]

Yes, this is a debate that is never going to result in agreement. Bachmann changed it's own formulation of BR Blue a few years back - their earlier shade matches the latest Hornby shade, but the fact that the paint had a specification when applied doesn't account for wear, fading, lighting conditions etc and blue is a more unstable colour for holding it's shade than many others. Therefore I am more concerned about the shade 'looking' right and will generally mix and match coaches within rakes so that the rake looks OK rather than worrying if it matches with another rake precisely.....

[Chamby]

Hasn't this been gone over ad nauseum? 

We all see colours and shades differently so there is no 'right' or 'wrong' colour unless you use black where it should be grey or blue where it should be green, for instance.

What looks right to me won't necessarily look right to you. It follows that what looks right to a guy at Hornby won't necessarily be the same as what looks right to a guy at Bachmann or Dapol or Oxford.

You can't use the appropriate full-size shades because they will look wrong to everyone because they need to be 'scaled down'.

You can't use Pantone or other computer/print-based colours because paint ranges are different.

You have to use the paint types/colour charts which are available to your company's particular Chinese manufacturer.

There were usually variations in the shades of the real things due to different paint batches, fading, and weathering. 

Manufacturers endeavour to make their own models match (I've seen Bachmann colour specs many times and they are absolutely standardised) but they can't be expected to match rival company's products.

(CJL)

Your first sentence, great... But then even you couldn’t resist re-joining the discussion again!

 

Remember Monty Python’s argument sketch? I think there’s some of that goes on with this forum, people actually enjoy the argument for its own sake.

[Porcy Mane]

Could somebody please take a look at this prototype David Ford photograph please and tell me which standard maroon I should be painting my coaches?

 

https://flic.kr/p/9vBLeb

 

Or any of these two maroons?

 

 

Or how about this?

 

 

I really do need a standard uniform colour so as to follow the prototype.

 

Moving on to Standard Gray. Which one please?

 

Hi-Res R1195 by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

or one of these grays?

 

 

Or another David Ford pic. Perhaps one of these grays?

 

https://flic.kr/p/9AGisc

 

I have more extreme examples...

 

...and that's before moving on to Greens and blues. Standardisation of paints no thanks. I'll just follow the prototype.

 

P

(bashing his drum again)

Edited December 2, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[BG John]

Maybe the solution is that each manufacturer has a variety of formulations of each colour, and specifies that they are applied randomly to each model going through the factory. It would really show up the collectors and toy train enthusiasts, from the real modellers aiming to follow the prototype as accurately as possible .

[Miss Prism]

I'm most definitely of the Porcy school, but I wanted to pick up on dibber's "You can't use Pantone or other computer/print-based colours because paint ranges are different.", which conflates two different, and separate, issues.

 

Although all our monitors are different (to a degree), computer-based references can be useful. Person A might cite colour A and person B might cite colour B. Neither might be 'correct', but at least the comparison can be stated objectively and can be useful as a means of discussion.

 

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Swindon to the left and Crewe to the right?

 

But I am talking of my memories of the last clean 'King' I saw at Snow Hill in 1962 and City of Birmingham as it left Crewe Paint Shop for the museum in 1966. My colour perception is totally different to what it would have been then, and I am looking at them on an LCD monitor.

[Porcy Mane]

So which Hymec Green?

 

D7027 & D7003, at Worcester by Geoff Dowling, on Flickr

 

P

[adb968008]

Using railwayana might be a good method.

 

I’ve got various bits from my travels, often 30 years of paint gets mm’s thick layers of paint, as most stuff never gets completely stripped back in the older days.

 

If you scratch at the layers you can see the exposed side, and the unexposed sides of paint.. obviously unexposed is much less likely to have faded. You only need a chipping of it to make a match.

 

For example. Here is a plate off of a BD conflate container wagon.

 

Top side is greyed, and faded, I took a shaving off of the plate, turned it upside down to expose the original layer.. and put it on my William Stanier..

 

Pretty good match...

 

Now I put it on my Duchess of Hamilton and....

Wow !!!

 

Here’s a Bachmann BG..

 

 

Here’s another paint sample, this time from a multiple unit, placed on top of a Bachmann 108..

Edited December 2, 2017 by adb968008

[Tim Hall]

It is perfectly possible for a manufacturer to match colours perfectly (eg a pantone card to a painted model)in one particular light source eg a standardised artificial daylight in a light cabinet, but for them to look quiet different in a shop under a fluorescent strip or halogen bulb, or in your attic under tungsten.

It's property called metamerism, and is a function of the fact that different colourants have to be used in different media. I used to colourmatch for car interiors for a supplier to Ford, Rover etc in the late 90s. We were always hampered by the fact that we were supplying polypropylene compounds for use as dashboards or bumpers, but trying to match ABS or PVC masters. ABS and PVC are often coloured using dyestuffs, especially for brighter shades. However, dyestuffs just leach out of polypropylene, so we were restricted the pigments, and therefore often couldn't produce a perfect match across two or three light sources.

 

Therefore different colourants will be used in Pantone cards etc to self coloured or painted plastic/ metal.

 

Consider the pinkish tubes often used by butchers to make meat look more appealing that it would in daylight.

 

Many years ago M and S used a very cheap fluorescent tube called TL83, which only had 2 wavelengths. The discerning fashion shoppers soon realised that items that matched under TL83 rarely matched elsewhere, and would often hasten to the doorway to get some natural light on the subject before buying.

 

Even Pantones fade unless stored correctly (dark and cool places).

 

Do we all use the same lights as each other? No.

Are the standard colours and the models the same material? Not always.

 

Therefore it will be almost impossible to get perfect colourmatches regardless of any other considerations.

[Chris M]

As has been said, the big problem with the R1 is that it should not be any shade of green at all. The train in the photo will not realistic until the loco is repainted black.

 

Paint colour does change over the years so we shouldn’t be too worried about small differences in shade.

[Chris M]

Something rarely modelled is the difference in texture of paint finish on a loco. The boiler cladding finish has quite a different look to the smoke box finish even on an all black loco. Creating this different effect might well look quite wrong on a model.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Chris M

[Pint of Adnams]

British Rail - Rail Blue, Flame Red, Rail Grey official colour chips. And, yes, I know that they have been (Epson) scanned but no other change shave been made to the resulting images.

 

[jjb1970]

Colours are like a lot of things, you can't please everyone so you may as well please yourself if you have to figure out what colour a model should be.

[Colin_McLeod]

Remember Monty Python’s argument sketch? I think there’s some of that goes on with this forum, people actually enjoy the argument for its own sake.

No we don't.

[Tim Hall]

British Rail - Rail Blue, Flame Red, Rail Grey official colour chips. And, yes, I know that they have been (Epson) scanned but no other change shave been made to the resulting images.

 

British Rail Paint Chips - Descriptions.jpg British Rail Paint Chips - Colours.jpg

Which may well have faded/altered since Jan 65. Have they been kept in the dark, in an inert atmosphere and very cool?

[Tim Hall]

Mind you, even allowing for the difficulties involved, there is rather more spread in my BR blue locos than would seem absolutely necessary. Photo taken about 6 months ago, so they're probably different by now.

 

Also don't forget gloss levels/ grain effects etc alter perception of colour significantly.

[coachmann]

All you need do is please yer-self and paint yer models the colour you think they should be............Why didn't nobody think of this?  It shows the value of being on a foolum ...... 

[Pint of Adnams]

Which may well have faded/altered since Jan 65. Have they been kept in the dark, in an inert atmosphere and very cool?

Yes to the dark and cool, no to the inert atmosphere (but they were sandwiched in between plain card). Is that how the railway companies store their locos and rolling stock then?

[Tim Hall]

Yes to the dark and cool, no to the inert atmosphere (but they were sandwiched in between plain card). Is that how the railway companies store their locos and rolling stock then?

Obviously not. Which proves how futile a quest for precise colour matches in models is. Are you modelling ex works, a year later, 5 years later, being washed aggressively in a carriage washer, near the sea, near the equator, near a smoky, sulphurous power station etc?

 

But when submitting colour samples to Ford in Berlin in the 90s, they ceremonially extracted the original signed off masters from a vacuum sealed bag in a freezer, and presumably returned them there afterwards. Thus retaining the integrity of the master against which everything was evaluated.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Tim Hall

[Pint of Adnams]

For those interested in the British Rail period the Corporate Identity Manual contains all the information required, right down to the colour specifications; see the entries numbered 1/30 and the samples as above 1/31 by scrolling down the contents here: http://www.doublearrow.co.uk/manual.htm

 

If you know where to look together with the generic name of the colour then much of the pre-privatisation information is available for free on the web.

 

There are even websites that offer conversions/equivalences between BS colours, HLC, RGB in its various forms, CMYK and Pantone.

[clarkeeboy56]

I always thought Pantone was a standard specifically for print, paint standards are generally in BS381c or BS4800......

 

Anyway, paint batches vary, so stock painted in one paint shop will not necessarily be the same as something painted elsewhere, or at a different time. Another factor to consider is that glossy paints generally appear darker than a Matt version of the same colour. Our models should really be a lot glossier than we have them, but as the model is smooth plastic rather than "puckered" metal, gloss paint on models make them look a bit toy-like. To match Matt coloured plastic with gloss painted metal would be a challenge.

 

It's all a compromise, like most of this hobby has to be. I quite like the variety of colours and shades, though for a SR fixed rake of coaches I would have to have them in identical shades.

[Pint of Adnams]

Obviously not. Which proves how futile a quest for precise colour matches in models is. Are you modelling ex works, a year later, 5 years later, being washed aggressively in a carriage washer, near the sea, near the equator, near a smoky, sulphurous power station etc?

 

But when submitting colour samples to Ford in Berlin in the 90s, they ceremonially extracted the original signed off masters from a vacuum sealed bag in a freezer, and presumably returned them there afterwards. Thus retaining the integrity of the master against which everything was evaluated.

But you're way OT now. The question was why do the various model manufacturers' products differ so much, and the answer is because they are not referring to the correct original colour specification. Fading, weathering and so on are changes that ensue, they are not original finishes.

 

By removing the signed off masters from storage and exposing then they clearly compromised their integrity.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Pint of Adnams

[Pint of Adnams]

I always thought Pantone was a standard specifically for print, paint standards are generally in BS381c or BS4800......

 

Anyway, paint batches vary, so stock painted in one paint shop will not necessarily be the same as something painted elsewhere, or at a different time. Another factor to consider is that glossy paints generally appear darker than a Matt version of the same colour. Our models should really be a lot glossier than we have them, but as the model is smooth plastic rather than "puckered" metal, gloss paint on models make them look a bit toy-like. To match Matt coloured plastic with gloss painted metal would be a challenge.

 

It's all a compromise, like most of this hobby has to be. I quite like the variety of colours and shades, though for a SR fixed rake of coaches I would have to have them in identical shades.

In theory yes, but that is the standard the model designers typically specify on the livery sheets sent off to factories in China, such decoration generally being applied by tampo printing.

[Tim Hall]

But you're way OT now. The question was why do the various model manufacturers' products differ so much, and the answer is because they are not referring to the correct original colour specification. Fading, weathering and so on are changes that ensue, they are not original finishes.

 

By removing the signed off masters from storage and exposing then they clearly compromised their integrity.

Technically you are correct, but considerably less compromised than anything we and the model manufacturers are using, as I'm sure you are aware.

Anyway, off to find something to paint, whatever colour I like.

 

We haven't even started on the variations of colour perception between individuals, degrees of colour blindness etc and how that might affect the difference various people see between items. Statistically, older men have, on average the worst colour vision......

Edited December 2, 2017 by Tim Hall

[Compound2632]

Could somebody please take a look at this prototype David Ford photograph please and tell me which standard maroon I should be painting my coaches?

 

https://flic.kr/p/9vBLeb

 

Or any of these two maroons?

 

62012-DepFtWill-Sm.jpg

 

Or how about this?

 

Duchess-BG.jpg

 

I really do need a standard uniform colour so as to follow the prototype.

 

Moving on to Standard Gray. Which one please?

 

Hi-Res R1195 by Bill Wright, on Flickr

 

or one of these grays?

 

 

 

Or another David Ford pic. Perhaps one of these grays?

 

https://flic.kr/p/9AGisc

 

I have more extreme examples...

 

...and that's before moving on to Greens and blues. Standardisation of paints no thanks. I'll just follow the prototype.

 

P

(bashing his drum again)

 

But these are old photos. Lighting, film response, film aging, all come between us and the "true" colour.

 

So which Hymec Green?

 

D7027 & D7003, at Worcester by Geoff Dowling, on Flickr

 

P

 

The one on the extreme left...