Standardisation of colours for model railways

[Colin_McLeod]

Some variation of blue here: :)

 

[Pint of Adnams]

We haven't even started on the variations of colour perception between individuals, degrees of colour blindness etc and how that might affect the difference various people see between items. Statistically, older men have, on average the worst colour vision......

Because it's been done to death so many times already and it's irrelevant here. Anyone with one or more of those conditions is still likely to note the differences between what is purported to be the same colour.

 

Statistically, older men have experienced in real life many more railway livery colours than any others.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Pint of Adnams

[Tim Hall]

Because it's been done to death so many times already and it's irrelevant here. Anyone with one or more of those conditions is still likely to note the differences between what is purported to be the same colour.

 

Statistically, older men have experienced in real life many more railway livery colours than any others.

Well it could be relevant, but I won't take up anymore of your valuable time, as you seem to know everything you want to know.

[57xx]

The one on the extreme left...

 

that was my choice too

[newbryford]

British Rail - Rail Blue, Flame Red, Rail Grey official colour chips. And, yes, I know that they have been (Epson) scanned but no other change shave been made to the resulting images.

 

British Rail Paint Chips - Descriptions.jpg British Rail Paint Chips - Colours.jpg

 

I only have a monochrome monitor, so I'm b*ggered....

 

 

 

Somebody mentioned colour scaling.

When Rail Express were doing 60074 in blue, they had the exact paint specification but it still looked wrong on the model - even in daylight.

They moved it half a shade to compensate.

 

We all view colour differently - and even now, we're looking at these examples on an electronic screen, not through a Mk1 eyeball in daylight.

 

I model a significant amount of yellow painted stock. I have photos taken 2 years apart of teh same item and they are clearly different shades as time has taken it's toll.

 

As for manufacturers reaching a common standard - it doesn't help when the production line in China just happens to use a different shade to that specified.......

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Porcy Mane]

But these are old photos. Lighting, film response, film aging, all come between us and the "true" colour.

So how do you explain the  "colour" variation in the single images where the stock/loco's are illuminated by the same colour temperature and intensity light?

 

I suppose you'll be telling me next that this variation in Maroon is down to film aging & human foibles of colour perception.   

 

 

 

 

 

The one on the extreme left...

 

 

So you acknowledge there is a difference then.

 

P

[Dunsignalling]

Surely, the crux of the matter is that we should not attempt to standardise, in model form, something that clearly wasn't standardised on the real thing, even if the intention was that it should be.

 

Shades of paint mixed In BR works (and earlier) will have differed between batches for a number of reasons, in ways that factory-mixed modern paint doesn't.

 

The accuracy of measuring the volume/weight of the ingredients was done by hand using fairly basic (robust) equipment, not the precision computerised gear normal today. We also have no idea of how individual perceptions of what constituted "close enough" might have varied.

 

The ingredients themselves were probably less consistent than they would be today for the same technological reasons. If they had been 100% repeatable, why would the cans be marked with batch numbers? 

 

Those responsible for mixing the paint had personal preferences as to what a colour should look like as well as differing perceptions of what it did look like.  If the guy who usually oversaw the mixing in Paintshop X was off work for any reason, somebody else did it and his colour vision might have been worse or better that that of the regular chap.

 

Moreover, in the past, a much higher proportion of men smoked than do now. It may or may not be current medical opinion, but I was told, by the MO at a RAF medical c1968, that smoking not only increased the likelihood of colour blindness but could also make colour vision unstable over quite short timescales (two weeks or thereabouts) and that both risks increased as tobacco consumption did. 

 

I smoked then, and don't now, but can't know how smoking did or did not affect my colour perception at the time. All I know is that I passed the medical on the day. I have been tested several times since and have always "passed" but that doesn't indicate that my colour vision has ever been "perfect", only that it has always fallen within the "acceptable" range.

 

And all that is before the effects of varying exposure to sun, salt air, weather, atmospheric pollution and time get to work on individual finished vehicles.

 

John

Edited December 3, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

So how do you explain the  "colour" variation in the single images where the stock/loco's are illuminated by the same colour temperature and intensity light?

 

I suppose you'll be telling me next that this variation in Maroon is down to film aging & human foibles of colour perception.   

 

CamBnk-MaroonsSm.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you acknowledge there is a difference then.

 

P

I've got a Mainline/early Bachmann Stanier BG in exactly that shade................

[Clive Mortimore]

So which Hymec Green?

 

D7027 & D7003, at Worcester by Geoff Dowling, on Flickr

 

P

The one on the left needs a tad more yella in the paint mix. And the 3rd one in the row isn't a Hymek which has me confused, do I compare it or not.

 

Seriously you make a valid point there are two locomotives of the same class which would/should have been painted the same green but in the photo are different. I am always happy that manufacturers seem to get as near as they can with a colour so that my models do reflect the differences as shown in the photo.

[Compound2632]

So how do you explain the  "colour" variation in the single images where the stock/loco's are illuminated by the same colour temperature and intensity light?

 

I suppose you'll be telling me next that this variation in Maroon is down to film aging & human foibles of colour perception.   

 

CamBnk-MaroonsSm.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you acknowledge there is a difference then.

 

P

 

I only said those were factors, I didn't say there wasn't variation either in the colour as applied new (and not just whether it's blue or green!) or, of course, subject to aging and weathering processes.

 

My point was the same as everyone else's, that it's next to impossible to draw any conclusion other than that there is no consistency in appearance on service, and hence the idea of colour standardisation is flawed.

[Chamby]

The one on the left needs a tad more yella in the paint mix. And the 3rd one in the row isn't a Hymek which has me confused, do I compare it or not.

 

Seriously you make a valid point there are two locomotives of the same class which would/should have been painted the same green but in the photo are different. I am always happy that manufacturers seem to get as near as they can with a colour so that my models do reflect the differences as shown in the photo.

The two green Hymeks could easily have been painted with the same batch of paint at a similar time. The one on the right looks cleaner than the one on the left, so the one on the left is tinged with ‘grime’. And they appear to be on gently curved track which means the sun strikes each locomotive at a different angle....

 

Then there is the question about the film used. Kodachrome and Fuji film in particular were notorious for their different colour renditions when used in otherwise identical circumstances. The film will then have been processed with chemicals that may or not have been ‘fresh’, then the reusultant negative or slide will have aged for an unspecified time in unknown conditions. Then the image may have been printed in a book using we don’t know which manufacturers ink on paper that might not be perfect white, which aged again for an unspecified time before being digitised using unspecified equipment, and finally viewed by each of us on different manufacturers computer screens/tablets/smartphones, under different lighting conditions.

 

When you think about it, it’s remarkable that they look near enough the right sort of green at all!

[Dick Turpin]

You know what, if you opened the door one morning and stepped out, and saw that all the red bricks in the houses opposite were the same shade of red,all the blue cars matched, so too the other coloured ones similarly, and every blade of grass was the same green, I think you'd go back in and have a lie down! 

 

May I suggest an argument for judicious weathering! 

[BG John]

Base your layout in a parallel universe, where the sun and ageing have different effects, and the standard livery for all railways is pink with purple spots. Problem sorted .

[Bernard Lamb]

 

But when submitting colour samples to Ford in Berlin in the 90s, they ceremonially extracted the original signed off masters from a vacuum sealed bag in a freezer, and presumably returned them there afterwards. Thus retaining the integrity of the master against which everything was evaluated.

That master set would also be a rather expensive bit of kit.

I used to have a set for various reasons, funnily enough containing certain Ford colours. Several sets were made up and kept for checking. They were used to check other samples that were in every day use and these open samples had to replaced on a regular basis.

People tend to forget that a commercial paint supplier will have a tolerance range. This can be quite wide in some cases. Take RAL3002, there is a British Standard that is very close and the two can actually come out the other way round to the impression given from the master colour sample. Now as carmine is one of the coaching stock colours that would explain part of the problem. If you want a consistent paint colour you will have to pay a lot extra for it and I have no idea if the big makers will do it this these days.

Bernard

[57xx]

What looks right to me won't necessarily look right to you. It follows that what looks right to a guy at Hornby won't necessarily be the same as what looks right to a guy at Bachmann or Dapol or Oxford.

You can't use the appropriate full-size shades because they will look wrong to everyone because they need to be 'scaled down'.

 

 

Maybe that's what Hornby were trying to do with their pale GWR green on locos. Trouble is, everybody whinged that it was pale and insipid, they didn't marvel at the fact that Hornby had produced a model designed to be viewed from a scale mile away.

[coachmann]

I usually avoid these debates because they rarely take railway modelling forward, however, the thread started off with a single question;  Why can't colours be standardized across the toy manufacturers products. The answer is they haven't been so far, but there is some hope!  The reason is not  "We all see colours differently", "It depends when the paint was mixed or if the moon was in conjunction with Uranus" , ""it bleached as soon as it was removed from its box" or whatever. Small wonder the end conclusion becomes, "Why bother ~ anything goes".  Anything patently does not go and I am sure the majority of us realize this. 

 

If we all see colour differently, then why has the Hornby Duchess 'Sir Willliam Stanier' been such a popular sell out? Because everybody likes the shade of maroon!  This is due to Hornby seeking assistance on the matter of crimson lake. When I repainted five of my ex. GWR locos in the green that professional model painters apply to high end models, the general consensus of opinion on this forum was members wished Hornby would adopt that green. So there was agreement there too. Get it right and folk will see it is right.

 

I am sorry to see confusion still reigns when it comes to citing colour photographs. The fact is, all the coaches and vans were painted using the same paint as supplied to BR by transport finishers. After that, they weathered and got mucky. Passenger coach sides were cleaned quite regularly, but passenger parcels vans etc did not. Cover paint with muck and it simply looks darker. Remove some of the much and it looks lighter. Sand it down to remove ingrained muck and you are getting back to the original finish, but not quite! It is up to us as modellers to weather our models accordingly, not to paint them different shades of maroon! 

 

From what I saw in corporate Blue days, BR Rail blue was a mongrel colour and freshly painted locos and rolling stock did display 'versions' even before weathering due to exposure or neglect took hold, so I dont think anyone need worry to much if the Rail Blue on thier models differs somewhat.

 

I was fortunate in my job because of people I knew and because of my involvement with various aspects in the lead up to privatization of BR and beyond. Regular readers of 'Rail' in the 1990's will be familiar with my work for BR, Regional Railways, privatization bids and EWS. The Roundel Group sent me samples of their three shades of grey, which I still have. I also had Corporate blue and the grey samples as well as crimson lake/BR maroon paint supplied by Derby Works and also pre-group colours supplied by Williamsons va the NRM as well as from individuals well known in the modelling world once upon a time.. 

Edited December 3, 2017 by coachmann

[The Johnster]

And on the WR, the carriage washing plants took the paint off like t cut...

[Porcy Mane]

It is up to us as modellers to weather our models accordingly, not to paint them different shades of maroon! 

 

Snipped  Some good point made Larry. Now remind us, how long did you/have you done consultancy work for Precision Paints?

 

P

[Dunsignalling]

And on the WR, the carriage washing plants took the paint off like t cut...

The one at Laira was reputed to be far more effective than T-Cut.

[Dunsignalling]

To put it cynically it may not be in the manufacturers interest to have matched colours. Take those B/G coaches as an example.  They don't match? Well don't run a mixed rake then, buy them all from us!. I recently bought a 12 coach rake of B/G Mk1's from Bachmann at twice as much as the equivalent would have been for Hornby Railroad but the Hornby range was incomplete.

 

It goes further than that. Those Bacchie Mk1's are too heavy for my Hornby Class 40 to pull. Why? when I went to considerable trouble removing the weights it almost solved the problem. They still have more rolling resistance than Hornby's. Cynical me would say because Bachmann would suggest that you buy one of their super heavy locos that can pull the rake.

I have one rake of Bachmann Mk.1s that I fitted with Romford wheels to run on a layout with finescale track some years ago. They are a significantly easier pull than my unaltered ones. I fitted the displaced wheelsets into a number of Airfix vehicles that had plastic wheels and the Bachmann wheels run more freely in them.

 

Totally mystified why, in both cases!

 

John

Edited December 3, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[coachmann]

Snipped  Some good point made Larry. Now remind us, how long did you/have you done consultancy work for Precision Paints?

 

P

Not me.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I have one rake of Bachmann Mk.1s that I fitted with Romford wheels to run on a layout with finescale track some years ago. They are a significantly easier pull than my unaltered ones. I fitted the displaced wheelsets into a number of Airfix vehicles that had plastic wheels and the Bachmann wheels run more freely in them.

 

Totally mystified why, in both cases!

 

John

Can be affected by the angle of the pinpoint on the axles and the angle of the hole in the bogie.

[The Johnster]

Can be affected by the angle of the pinpoint on the axles and the angle of the hole in the bogie.

 

 

And the actual width between the bearing cups/length of the axle to the pinpoints; a very small variation will make a big difference between 'tight', 'loose and floppy', and 'just right'.

[Colin_McLeod]

As the actress said to the bishop.

[rob D2]

I usually avoid these debates because they rarely take railway modelling forward, however, the thread started off with a single question;  Why can't colours be standardized across the toy manufacturers products. The answer is they haven't been so far, but there is some hope!  The reason is not  "We all see colours differently", "It depends when the paint was mixed or if the moon was in conjunction with Uranus" , ""it bleached as soon as it was removed from its box" or whatever. Small wonder the end conclusion becomes, "Why bother ~ anything goes".  Anything patently does not go and I am sure the majority of us realize this. 

 

If we all see colour differently, then why has the Hornby Duchess 'Sir Willliam Stanier' been such a popular sell out? Because everybody likes the shade of maroon!  This is due to Hornby seeking assistance on the matter of crimson lake. When I repainted five of my ex. GWR locos in the green that professional model painters apply to high end models, the general consensus of opinion on this forum was members wished Hornby would adopt that green. So there was agreement there too. Get it right and folk will see it is right.

 

I am sorry to see confusion still reigns when it comes to citing colour photographs. The fact is, all the coaches and vans were painted using the same paint as supplied to BR by transport finishers. After that, they weathered and got mucky. Passenger coach sides were cleaned quite regularly, but passenger parcels vans etc did not. Cover paint with muck and it simply looks darker. Remove some of the much and it looks lighter. Sand it down to remove ingrained muck and you are getting back to the original finish, but not quite! It is up to us as modellers to weather our models accordingly, not to paint them different shades of maroon! 

 

From what I saw in corporate Blue days, BR Rail blue was a mongrel colour and freshly painted locos and rolling stock did display 'versions' even before weathering due to exposure or neglect took hold, so I dont think anyone need worry to much if the Rail Blue on thier models differs somewhat.

 

I was fortunate in my job because of people I knew and because of my involvement with various aspects in the lead up to privatization of BR and beyond. Regular readers of 'Rail' in the 1990's will be familiar with my work for BR, Regional Railways, privatization bids and EWS. The Roundel Group sent me samples of their three shades of grey, which I still have. I also had Corporate blue and the grey samples as well as crimson lake/BR maroon paint supplied by Derby Works and also pre-group colours supplied by Williamsons va the NRM as well as from individuals well known in the modelling world once upon a time..

 

 

Maybe you can tell us why the Bachmann EWS looks like dried blood and the real one looks like........red....

Just put fox transfers on a Bachmann EWS and notice the variation in red.

 

Is this the supposed scaling of colour I’ve heard of ?