OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Ian Hargrave]

3 hours ago, SteamingWales said:

 

It's tempting as a "what if" scenario and not entirely outside the realm of possibility for one to make it to Aberystwyth and if any it would be 4132.

 

Problem is I've committed to only getting locos that ran on the Cambrian for long winded reasons I won't go into

Aren’t you forgetting another line also ran to Aberystwyth and that it’s maybe feasible that a large Prairie may have been used ? Depends upon water & coal capacity though .

[Miss Prism]

Oswestry to Aberystwyth was officially a yellow route restriction (!), but some blue locos were allowed. Manors were in the middle of the blue range, but some large Prairies were at the top end of the blue range, and hence might not have been allowed through to Aberystwyth.

 

 

 

[Andy Kirkham]

4 hours ago, SteamingWales said:

 

It's tempting as a "what if" scenario and not entirely outside the realm of possibility for one to make it to Aberystwyth and if any it would be 4132.

 

Problem is I've committed to only getting locos that ran on the Cambrian for long winded reasons I won't go into

T.P.Dalton states in his book Cambrian Companionship: 

For a brief period, Carmarthen shed developed the practice of working some of the large ex-GWR pairie tanks of the 5100, 6100 and 8100 classes on the branch passenger trains, and on one occasion I noted an 8100 class locomotive working on empty stock working out of Aberystwyth to Aberdovey.

 

Unfortunately he does not specify when that brief period was.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Andy Kirkham

[SteamingWales]

On 22/09/2019 at 19:06, TheSignalEngineer said:

Extract from Oswestry District WTT Summer 1959

 

 

Barmouth and Old Chapel viaducts were also restricted to 10mph for 'Blue' engines in the speed restrictions table.

Further on we find 

 

 

This means that a Large Prairie could get to Barmouth from Barmouth Junction which is confirmed by the tables in the Chester District WTT.

 

A quick Google search later (a bit dangerous I know) pulled up this from way earlier in the thread which answers a couple of my questions regarding route availability. 

 

Thanks for the input as well@tomparryharry @Ian Hargrave @Miss Prismand @Andy Kirkham. 

 

Time to have a bit of a think about this 

[Miss Prism]

Beware the features blurb on the Rails page - it contains some Mogul specifics.

[David Stannard]

On 26/11/2021 at 01:58, SteamingWales said:

 

It's tempting as a "what if" scenario and not entirely outside the realm of possibility for one to make it to Aberystwyth and if any it would be 4132.

 

Problem is I've committed to only getting locos that ran on the Cambrian for long winded reasons I won't go into

 

 I am hoping for an 81xx model to come out as mooted by Dapol when discussing the tooling used for these models and the modularity of it of how a number of different variants could be made quite easily by swapping out sections.

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, David Stannard said:

 

 I am hoping for an 81xx model to come out as mooted by Dapol when discussing the tooling used for these models and the modularity of it of how a number of different variants could be made quite easily by swapping out sections.

Neath’s ( 87 A ) 8104 worked passenger turns for a number of years on The Vale Of Neath line. I’d spot it most weekday mornings on my way to school. Yes,I’d like one too.

[rembrow]

I've received my BR late crest this morning and it is a great looker, with very fine detail. The lifting rings on the tank tops look to be individual parts, but are fixed. They may be moulded but are superbly detailed if they are. The only thing that jarred  was the brightness of the safety valve bonnet, so after testing, I toned the shine down with Testor's Dulcote applied by brush to the brass effect, has made a huge difference. Running is excellent  with good slow speed and realistic top speed, it certainly seems that Dapol have fitted revised gearing compared to the Mogul. On the issue of the slide bars with bent up/down ends, when I checked mine, two of the bars were horizontal at the ends, one lower on one side and one upper on the other. Using those as benchmarks, I checked that the connecting rods would clear the two horizontal bars, which they did. I then adjusted the other two using small fine/bent node pliers. The metal bends fairly easily. I now have four horizontal slide bars.

I must compliment Dapol on the price, I ordered as soon as announced and in the subsequent 3 years the price increased by only £5. My retailer also maintained the original price  so thanks to both. Now tempted by the BR lined green early crest!!

[gwrrob]

Nice to see that DCC Supplies have put a holding page on their website for the spares for these.

[Harlequin]

My two arrived today. I haven't really got time to play with test them this weekend and I didn't think ahead to buy in some decoders, so I couldn't run them without cannibalising something else anyway.

 

But, here's a photo of Dapol 5108 standing in front of Hornby 6110, which happened to be on my test track. The sun briefly came out so this is under natural lighting:

 

You can see my Hornby Prairie has been in the wars a bit! That shows up really badly in this cruel close-up photograph.

 

First impressions: The Dapol is a finer model but it does have some issues. The biggest is that the tanks don't sit down on the running plate at the front. This is common to both my versions and, from what I've seen of the photos on Hattons and Rails, seems to be common across all versions of the product. It might be fixable. Time will tell.

 

The running plates are straight, BTW, despite appearances.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Harlequin

[rembrow]

16 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

My two arrived today. I haven't really got time to play with test them this weekend and I didn't think ahead to buy in some decoders, so I couldn't run them without cannibalising something else anyway.

 

But, here's a photo of Dapol 5108 standing in front of Hornby 6110, which happened to be on my test track. The sun briefly came out so this is under natural lighting:

 

You can see my Hornby Prairie has been in the wars a bit! That shows up really badly in this cruel close-up photograph.

 

First impressions: The Dapol is a finer model but it does have some issues. The biggest is the way that the tanks don't sit down on the running plate at the front. This is common to both my versions and, from what I've seen of the photos on Hattons and Rails, seems to be common across all versions of the product. It might be fixable. Time will tell.

 

The running plates are straight, BTW, despite appearances.

 

The running plate to tank join is interesting, my BR late crest has a snug join over the whole length of the tank and running board join on both sides.

[Harlequin]

More photos of 5108 from the workbench:

 

 

 

The loco is a good weight and feels very solid.

 

The cab roof is very easy to remove - nice touch compared to the Hornby version.

 

Lovely details on the tops of the tanks.

 

Mould lines on the smokebox barrel either side of the chimney.

 

Rear lamp brackets will be difficult to use but I guess that's a very rare occurrence anyway for most of us.

 

The gap under the tank is worse on the right hand side on this loco. I note that the instructions recommend not removing the body from the chassis at all and that even if you do the running plate would come with it and have to be further removed to try to understand the gap.

 

There's no allowance for a big speaker anywhere in the model - the sugarcube and it's tiny enclosure clipped under the decoder PCB is the only standard sound facility. I'll be looking to cut away the bunker floor to make room for something bigger.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Harlequin

[Miss Prism]

Excellent pics.

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

My two arrived today. I haven't really got time to play with test them this weekend and I didn't think ahead to buy in some decoders, so I couldn't run them without cannibalising something else anyway.

 

But, here's a photo of Dapol 5108 standing in front of Hornby 6110, which happened to be on my test track. The sun briefly came out so this is under natural lighting:

 

You can see my Hornby Prairie has been in the wars a bit! That shows up really badly in this cruel close-up photograph.

 

First impressions: The Dapol is a finer model but it does have some issues. The biggest is that the tanks don't sit down on the running plate at the front. This is common to both my versions and, from what I've seen of the photos on Hattons and Rails, seems to be common across all versions of the product. It might be fixable. Time will tell.

 

The running plates are straight, BTW, despite appearances.

 

The Dapol rivets, handrail knobs and guard irons seem a lot chunkier than the Hornby.

[Hal Nail]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The Dapol rivets, handrail knobs and guard irons seem a lot chunkier than the Hornby.

I prefer the look of the Hornby smoke box door as well - the difference is very subtle and I certainly can't be bothered to analyse why, just my snap reaction purely of that photo was the Hornby face is crisper and slightly more convincing (wonky buffers aside!)

 

I think it's inevitable there will be features of both that you will like more though and sods law a blend of both would be ideal!

Edited November 28, 2021 by Hal Nail

[melmerby]

The rivet detail on the buffer beam is covered in too much paint.

The pony wheels don't look right.

and that tank gap

I agree about the smokebox, I too felt the Hornby offering looks better

Overall it looks like a few plus and a few minus points but it is IMHO so far not better and neither is it worse.

 

I'm waiting for some info on the running qualities. e.g. is it regeared to a more reasonable top speed?

 

My mogul has certainly improved with use and is much smoother than it was when new, it has taken a long time to bed in but it still has that too high gearing

[Butler Henderson]

Re the tank gap wonder if the body is screwed together internally in the way some Bachmann ones are and its a case of one having been overtightened. Personally I would return it as there is plainly something not right and Dapols QC is not that brilliant IME so the more that get returned they might get the message.

[Harlequin]

At the moment I wouldn't say one is better than the other in terms of the details (except for the gap problem). They are different.

 

(The running plate and buffer beam of the Dapol are cast metal, whereas the Hornby is moulded plastic.)

 

Have a look at this page: https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/420/going-loco-august-2020

About 3/4 of the way down are 3/4 photos of 6106 and 4144 at Didcot. Very convenient for comparison between them and the models.

 

I'm hoping that the tank/running plate gap can be fixed at home but if not, then yes, it may have to go back. That would be really sad for everyone because I think there might be quite a number of locos with this problem!

 

Edited November 28, 2021 by Harlequin

[Ian Hargrave]

6 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Re the tank gap wonder if the body is screwed together internally in the way some Bachmann ones are and its a case of one having been overtightened. Personally I would return it as there is plainly something not right and Dapols QC is not that brilliant IME so the more that get returned they might get the message.

For now the only way around this problem is to inspect the model for such issues prior to purchase. ATM that’s not possible for most of us unfortunately.We can however request that the retailer does this for us…remotely of course. 
One matter thus far not discussed is that of performance which should be of paramount importance.The Hornby model seems to have issues here amongst them lack of weight for adhesion.If the Dapol scores with this,then for me it would be the model of choice,notwithstanding the cosmetic issues 

[Pteremy]

11 hours ago, Harlequin said:

The gap under the tank is worse on the right hand side on this loco. I note that the instructions recommend not removing the body from the chassis at all and that even if you do the running plate would come with it and have to be further removed to try to understand the gap.

Is there a 'spare parts' sheet showing how the body and running plate relate, that might shed some light on this issue? Or are they shown as one 'part'?

[Harlequin]

2 minutes ago, Pteremy said:

Is there a 'spare parts' sheet showing how the body and running plate relate, that might shed some light on this issue? Or are they shown as one 'part'?

Yes the loco body shell is shown as a spare part but it shows the tanks and the running plate joined.

We know that the running plate is cast metal and the rest of the body is moulded so there must be some fixings of some kind... Clips, screws, rivets?

I really haven't got time to look right now, frustratingly.

 

[rembrow]

As far as the gearing goes, I've checked the Prairie and Mogul parts list and the gear part is the same ref number so no help there. As the parts list confirms, the chassis parts are identical for the two models, except for the rear pony on the Prairie, so I've run them together and the Prairie has slower speed across the whole range of my controller settings, with a very slow crawl. I tested it against my Bach 94xx and it was slower at the lower settings than the 94xx, so I would say that the gearing has been adjusted.

As far as rivet detail, the footplate rivets are more pronounced than with Hornby, however this is a drawback on using a cast metal footplate, the benefit being more weight lower down. I think this really shows with the crawl that I'm achieving with no running in, bearing in mind Dapol don't suggest models need to be run in. Again I've compared rivett detail with the 94xx and they seem comparable to my eye. The handrail knobs are thicker than other recent models, including the Mogul.

Edited November 28, 2021 by rembrow
Correction

[adb968008]

Looking at the pictures, Dapols wheels look far more realistic.

Thats a big plus right there, that rides way and above nit picky areas.

[Neal Ball]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Looking at the pictures, Dapols wheels look far more realistic.

Thats a big plus right there, that rides way and above nit picky areas.

That’s a strange one. In some photos I’ve seen to Dapol vs Hornby I’ve seen the Dapol wheels looking like a steam roller.

 

Ive got 2 x Hornby and nothing I’ve seen convinces me to change and/or buy a 3rd loco, this time from Dapol.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

That’s a strange one. In some photos I’ve seen to Dapol vs Hornby I’ve seen the Dapol wheels looking like a steam roller.

 

 

I'd agree with that.

Hornby's wheels are superior, especially the pony.

 

5 hours ago, rembrow said:

 bearing in mind Dapol don't suggest models need to be run in.

That's clearly twaddle as my Hornby Prairies were fine out of the box, my Dapol Mogul has improved from being a bit mediocre to OK after considerable use. (It's definitely getting there, albeit over time and it doesn't cure the silly gearing..)

 

The Hornby "lightweight" Prairie can be improved no end with some ballast in the tank area, where there are acres of fresh air.

Edited November 28, 2021 by melmerby