Why did the 20s outlast other classes?

[Foden]

I've always liked the class 20s, being an east midlands lad, I have fond memories of them working coal trains in the 80s and early 90s before the type 5s totally took over the operations.

 

There is one thing however that I've always wondered, and that's why did the class 20 last so long in traffic, even in small numbers to this day?

 

For all the nostalgia and appreciation from railway followers, the class to me seems like a flawed design for 'modern' usage compared to other classes of type 1/2 which got the chop after BR lost alot of the smaller mixed traffic usage these types were designed for.

 

Appreciating that BR intended to keep some smaller traction available, and double head them on heavier freight trains, why did the 20s get the nod, and other another class like the 25s get the chop? On the face of it, a class 25 weighs in with the same axle load, were more numerous, the earliest ones were slightly newer, they had a cab at both ends for flexibility, and a pair of 25s offer a combined power output of 2500hp, equal to that of a class 47, and more suitable to the sort of heavy MGR workings that the 2000hp paired 20s ended up on in the late 80s and 90s

 

Were the 25s and other classes much less reliable, or were there other reasons that the 20s were kept over others?

[asmay2002]

The 20s were the most reliable diesels BR ever had.  The 37s the next most reliable.  They got rid of the junk first.

[royaloak]

Maintenance, running costs, reliability would be three reasons.

 

Driver knowledge in the area where the work was required to be undertaken could possibly be another, there is no point moving locos around and training up all the staff when you already have a reliable class in the area which everyone signs and is familiar with.

[jonny777]

I've always liked the class 20s, being an east midlands lad, I have fond memories of them working coal trains in the 80s and early 90s before the type 5s totally took over the operations.

 

There is one thing however that I've always wondered, and that's why did the class 20 last so long in traffic, even in small numbers to this day?

 

 

 

 

Because they were virtually redundant for their original duties within 10 years; but as BR had committed to a standard type 1 (Claytons) which turned out to be a criminal waste of taxpayers money (and as a result more 20s were built instead), the 20s could not be allowed to go the same way. 

 

Therefore they were paired and used on goods trains, for which they were well suited compared to an equivalent EE Type 4. 

[The Johnster]

Class 20s were, as Jonny777 rightly points out, redundant from their intended pick freight and local work very soon after introduction, and it would not be unfair to say this of any Type 1 diesel, plus they were hobbled by having only one cab.  But they were reliable and proved very handy coupled nose to nose in multiple on mineral traffic, which lasted well into the MGR era; moreover, being restricted to 60mph running they were more or less useless for anything else, so had the advantage of releasing more powerful locos that would otherwise have had to be used on the MGR traffic for more suitable work.

 

Their reliability and ease of maintenance ensured that they were long lived, and they are still putting in useful work nowadays; AFAIK they are the only original Modernisation Plan locos still in use!

[eastwestdivide]

Were they restricted to 60mph? Surely 75? 

Must dig out my timing logs for the Leicester-Skeggy trains...

[russ p]

They were restricted to 60 in the late 80s but it was only a sticker in the cab......

Don't think there was much line speed over 60 East of Nottingham back then

[Davexoc]

Also they are go anywhere when it comes to route availability.

There were some fairly short MGR flows that didn't need loads of power.

And I am guessing they didn't accumulate the mileages that some larger locos racked up.

 

Dave

[jim.snowdon]

Plain simple English Electric reliability, plus, as a pair, lots of tractive effort? They will also have benefitted from being lower geared than many of the comparable Type 2s.

 

Jim

[jonny777]

I believe they were tried for a short time in the 1960s on summer passenger trains to the coast, and performed very well. 

 

However, at that time 25s and 31s were ten a penny, and had train heating - so the 20s were not needed. 

 

Therefore photos of the green pre-tops variety with syp are not common - but as it is Christmas, and I am probably more full of alcohol than I should be,  here is one 

 

 

 

D8055 and D8065 on a railtour to Skegness 1960s

Edited December 24, 2017 by jonny777

[jonny777]

Deleted repeat post

Edited December 24, 2017 by jonny777

[Steamport Southport]

75 MPH according to a Platform Five book that I have handy. Motive Power Pocket Book Summer/Autumn 1984.

 

Funnily enough it was rare to see them working in pairs around the North West. Mostly they were seen on engineers trains. It was always a pleasant surprise to see one rather than the usual Crewe based Class 25.

 

 

 

Jason

[stovepipe]

Up until the mid 1980s, there were a number of older non-MGR collieries that had poorly-laid track, and the class 20s RA5 route availablity was needed to service them. Over time these collieries either closed or received investment to allow the RA7 freight locos to visit.

[johnb]

My take on this is that they are solidly built, simple diesel engines with bomb proof electrics. Probably every component was underrated, so that whatever the loading, track or driver did to them they couldn't be overloaded. Unlike today's builds where it seems every item is run to its max to save weight and money

 

John

[Poor Old Bruce]

Were they restricted to 60mph? Surely 75? 

Must dig out my timing logs for the Leicester-Skeggy trains...

 

I went on a Nottingham to Llandudno train once with a pair of 20s which romped along the North Wales coast line at 75 even though the sticker on the cab side said 60 max!

[Legend]

Reliable , rugged, simple to maintain. Also gave flexibility being able to run singly or coupled . So 1000hp- 2000hp flexible package. While everyone remarks on the demise of freight pick ups they were still around in the 70s. I remember a caravan holiday at Girvan in 73, SWScotland , looking out over the golf course to the coal yard, being woken up by a class 20 shunting the yard . I think it was only a few days a week not every day . But even on the Canal line atPaisley there was a big coal yard to drop off wagons and shunt. So domestic coal was still big traffic .

[Foden]

Thanks for the input guys, as I had my thoughts that it was due to reliability.

 

I take it class 25s by comparison (as just one example) were much more problematic in use?

[Jenny Emily]

Didn't the 25s develop body and cab rust issues later in life? 

[toffee]

As others have said, simple, light weight locos used in pairs on MGRs 2000hp spread over a pair with 8 traction motors able to put down power on dodgy track. A low speed Lugger, just what railfreight wanted. 25s ? Too many differences between a nominally single class, they were /0 /1/2 for a reason, not all worked together well. All 20s were the same, to use an Americanism KISS, Keep It Simple Stu*id ! BR clas 56, 58, 60 all got more and more complicated to be replaced by the simple 66.

[russ p]

20s aren't all the same later ones have solid state electronics and KV10 load regulators and other Micky mouse electronics

These locos didn't work well with the earlier ones

[Phil Bullock]

Traction motors were the Achilles heel of at least some 25s - a light weight design working at the limit of their designed power range IIRC

 

20s always were - and still are - great to see

 

 

One of Brian Thomas's excellent Abbotswood photos...

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Lima or Bachmann?

 

 

 

One of those photographs that looks like it's of a model railway.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Plain simple English Electric reliability...

 Worth noting that they were developed from a design which had been exported (if memory serves to Sri Lanka) so came with the benefit of some prior experience too. This was sadly lacking from most of the pilot scheme designs, and a disease that recurred too often in BR's subsequent diesel acquisition process; which oftime appeared positively Bulleidesque in its desire for unproven novelty features to degrade sound underpinnings.

[Phil Bullock]

Lima or Bachmann?

 

 

 

One of those photographs that looks like it's of a model railway.

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

Hmmm a bit like this one perhaps?

 

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=7Yc4wvfpKQ4

 

Phil

 

[cheesysmith]

A thing to look for is how long it took for a loco to go from green to blue. This was done at main works overhaul, and the longer between works visits, the cheaper and more reliable a loco is. The class with the last locos in green are the 40s, 20s, and the 08s. 

 

PS-The 47s dont count as they had major engine troubles requiring replacement. This was done early in their lives so reset the time between works visits.

Edited December 25, 2017 by cheesysmith